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The Technician
No Imperfections Noted
The Jeff and Casey Show
Jeff and Casey Time
Casey Muratori
Seattle, WA
The Monkey Owns It
"If you're over thirty years old and you want to play minigolf, I know you're not ready for a paying job."
Original air date: September 15th, 2014
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Transcript
Jeff:
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Jeff & Casey Show.
Casey:
Hello, and welcome to another animal-filled episode of the Jeff & Casey Show.
Jeff:
Oh, we’re gonna do animals.
Casey:
We’re going to do animals today. We haven’t done animals in a while.
Jeff:
How many people right now, in the boats you can see, how do you think their podcasts are going?
Casey:
You know what, here’s the thing, I don’t… You know how they say it’s hard to, like, pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time or something?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
I don’t think most people can handle boating and podcasting at the same time.
Jeff:
Oh, at the same time.
Casey:
This is just one of the ways…
Jeff:
Right, that we’re heroes…
Casey:
That we are heroes…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Yes, heroes, A, but also multi-talented, multi-faceted individuals. You know what, Jeff, we’re unicorns of podcasting.
Jeff:
I see. This is true.
Casey:
We are unicorns, if you will.
Jeff:
Yeah, we are. We are rare and unappreciated.
Casey:
So the interesting thing about that term, actually, which drives me insane, when people call themselves a unicorn nowadays…
Jeff:
Oh, is that a thing now?
Casey:
Oh, you didn’t know this?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Okay. So people who are… So you know how, like, in the web world…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
People think they have talent even though basically nothing in web is done well at all, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So, like, basically web is like you showed up, right? If you could both, say, write some HTML or PHP or something at all…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
And you can do some graphic design, they call themselves a unicorn.
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
They’re like, “Oh, I’m one of those rare combinations of both left and right brain talents.”
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
And like, really, they’re just terrible at both but, like, because everyone else is terrible at only one thing…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They think that they’re special ‘cos they have these 2 combinations. Okay, so that’s, A, the unicorn thing.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But the awesome part about that, the thing that’s so cool about that is, like, unicorns are, A, imaginary…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So they’re not rare.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, they’re not a rare thing.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s not like an endangered species where, like, you’re rare. You don’t exist.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So it’s like calling yourself something that doesn’t actually occur, ever, right.
Jeff:
That’s awesome.
Casey:
Which is not true, okay, but that’s okay because to be fair, you said you were good at programming and graphic design not, say, for example, biology…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Which apparently is what’s required for you to… The other thing is unicorns are useless. Like, a unicorn is a horse with a horn on the front of it. It doesn’t fight. It’s not really magical. It’s just lame.
Jeff:
I also feel unicorns are like donkeys.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
They’re the sterile offspring…
Casey:
Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
Of, like, a rhinoceros and a horse…
Casey:
Yeah. Right.
Jeff:
So like, there’s gonna be one of those and it’s gonna be all really fucked up.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I will say…
Casey:
“I’m a liger. It’s probably the best animal.”
Jeff:
You know, the one that… A show that I’ve been coerced into seeing recently…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
It’s a terrible show. It’s called “Bachelor in Paradise”. It is…
Casey:
Oh, fucking Ginger watches that show, too.
Jeff:
It is… Like, you called it… You referred to it as a collider situation…
Casey:
I did?
Jeff:
Because they take the failures from previous ones and then start new “Bachelor” shows. Like, they take a failed “Bachelor” guy that…
Casey:
Oh, okay. Like a super [ production ]…
Jeff:
Connected with the…
Casey:
They try to, like…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Fuse two particles together to make…
Jeff:
And then, like, one of the people doesn’t hook up, ends up being the “Bachelor”…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
In the future scenes…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
That’s how it works.
Casey:
Alright. I got… I would’ve used the term “breeder reactor” these days.
Jeff:
Breeder reactor. I’m sorry. That’s what you did say.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Yes. I’m sorry. I apologize.
Casey:
It’s a breeder reactor.
Jeff:
Yeah. It’s a breeder reactor.
Casey:
You get shows and they just fucking turn shit together…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And if no one drops the control rods, which by the way, everyone has one. It’s called a remote control. You hit the power button, it’s off.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Put those control rods, remote control rods, if you will, descend them, please, into reality television for the love of God, people.
Jeff:
So here’s… Well, let me just quickly summarize what I was gonna get to.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
Is that in these shows…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Part of using them to find the next bachelor or bachelorette is good because you see who the audience connects with and you’re like, “Oh, they tend to like this guy…”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
“We make him the bachelor, they tune it.”
Casey:
Right, right, right. Yeah.
Jeff:
Right. So that’s set.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
The other thing is you get a whole bunch of people who are legitimately crazy, like…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And not crazy in, like, “That girl is crazy,” or, “That guy is crazy.”
Casey:
Wait, what?
Jeff:
Like, you see them…
Casey:
Okay. I’m lost here a little bit.
Jeff:
Well, wait a second. So normally, the thing of, like, bros saying like, “Oh, she was just crazy. My girlfriend’s crazy,” like…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
They use it kind of as a pejorative.
Casey:
You mean like not a dismissive crazy. You mean legitimately, like, diagnosed as crazy.
Jeff:
These people are, like, you see them, over the course of 5 weeks before they get kicked off…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And you’re like, “No, this one particular contestant…”
Casey:
Is legitimately crazy.
Jeff:
“Is fucking crazy.”
Casey:
Okay. Alright.
Jeff:
And you can’t make them the next bachelor.
Casey:
Okay. Alright.
Jeff:
That wouldn’t work ‘cos it’s all…
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
Whatever it is, 12 shows…
Casey:
’Cos it’ll be too crazy.
Jeff:
You can’t have the main character be a lunatic.
Casey:
Why not?
Jeff:
Because I think it doesn’t get everyone to buy into love…
Casey:
Okay, okay.
Jeff:
If she’s just, like, crazily going off.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
But what they did do is they made a new show called “Bachelor in Paradise”…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Where they take all of the crazies…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Put them together…
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
And then they’re all… So one week…
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
There’s, like, 5 guys, 5 girls.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
The guys, one week, get to choose which girl they want to ask to stay.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
Next week, the girls get to choose the guys.
Casey:
Oh…
Jeff:
So it alternates weeks.
Casey:
But what if they all just pick a different person then everyone stays and no one gets removed? Or there’s less women than men and they ping pong?
Jeff:
There’s always fewer…
Casey:
One less?
Jeff:
There’s always…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
There’s always one…
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
They make it…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Because here’s the other thing is…
Casey:
There’s gonna be a new branch of mathematics for this.
Jeff:
Every week, they add a new crazy guy…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Or crazy girl to increment the guy or girl count.
Casey:
So… Okay.
Jeff:
So that there’s always too many.
Casey:
So basically, there’s gonna be some new field of game theory, like, reality game theory or whatever, that, like… You know how nowadays, Las Vegas and Wall Street take all the Math graduates who want to make money?
Jeff:
Oh, right…
Casey:
And they…
Jeff:
They’re gonna go to the [ NSA ].
Casey:
And the [ NSA ], I suppose but there’s gonna be a 4th one which is, like, reality games structures…
Jeff:
Yeah. Right.
Casey:
And they’ve, like, studied all of the different ways that they can actually make this work.
Jeff:
Okay. So anyway, the best part of all of this…
Casey:
How does this relate to animal links?
Jeff:
It doesn’t.
Casey:
Fuck.
Jeff:
It rela--… I can’t even remember why I started but I’m gonna finish this.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
So the best part is there’s one girl that falls for this guy…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And she is really, like… They have met. 20 minutes later, she’s like, “I’m in love with this guy. I want to have his kids…”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And you’re like, “Okay, that’s a little weird.”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
He, to his credit, is like, “I think there’s something wrong with her,” like, to the camera, off thing… And he’s like, “I don’t think…” So it gets worse and worse and worse…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And he’s like, “We need to just chill a little bit.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And so, she immediately makes out with some other dude.
Casey:
Right. It’s a good call.
Jeff:
Next day, he’s like, “You made out with some… Okay. This is weird, like…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And she’s like, “Well, you told me to.” And he’s like, “I didn’t.” And she’s like, “I’m getting mixed signals here.”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And he’s like, “I didn’t give you any…”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
It was legitimately crazy.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Anyway, she keeps telling everyone on the show they’re gonna get married.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
It comes to her where she gets to choose the rose.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And she asks him and he says no.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
He’s like, “No, I’m so--… And I told you not to… I told you I would not take this rose.”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
He told her ahead of time, “Give it to somebody else.”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And she did anyway. And so, whatever. But then, she gives one of those maps speeches like the beauty contestants do…
Casey:
Oh, right, right, right. Okay.
Jeff:
That is, like, 3 minutes long…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
She’s like… He didn’t take it and she’s like, “So…” Oh, I remember why. She says, “I am just looking for my unicorn under the rainbow…”
Casey:
Oh, wow.
Jeff:
And she keeps mixing, like, positive speak…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Like… But mashing them together in some crazy thing in her mind.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
They just let her talk to the group of people for 3 minutes. She makes this speech that makes no sense. She’s like, “I’m just looking for the love that will make me sparkle and make my unicorn under the rain--…” And like, goes on and on and on… It’s completely excruciating. And that’s what…
Casey:
Kind of like the story has been.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
That is 8 minutes of this podcast that I will never get back in my life.
Jeff:
The point of all this is I feel like as soon as you drop the unicorn line…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I’m… Now… Even before you told me that’s what it means…
Casey:
Right. Yeah.
Jeff:
I’d be like, “Nope,” that’s my automatic crazy. When you say your unicorn…
Casey:
You know what actually I really enjoyed…
Jeff:
Because of that crazy girl.
Casey:
I really enjoyed the other day when I was telling you about how there was, like, a Silicon Valley place that had a mini golf course at their office or whatever.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And you were in the middle… We were in the middle of the Home Depot and you were just on fire. It was… I was dying laughing.
Jeff:
I was so mad.
Casey:
You were like, “Okay, if you are somebody who wants to play mini golf at the office, I want nothing to do with you.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I don’t even remember what you said but it was amazing.
Jeff:
Well, if you’re… I was like, “If you’re over 30 years old and you want to play mini golf…”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
“I know you’re not ready for a paying job,” right? You need to still be in fast-food. Like, if you’re like, “Whoa, a mini golf!” You’re like, “Did he…” You almost want a fake mini golf in the office to see if somebody loses their shit…
Casey:
Right. Yeah.
Jeff:
And you’re like, “That’s immediately out.”
Casey:
That’s awesome. You know what, there should be something like…
Jeff:
’Cos we have not talked about that on the podcast.
Casey:
We will. We will. I think we will.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Alright. So let’s put that aside for a separate talk because that’s a whole ‘nother topic but today is supposed to be an animal links show…
Jeff:
Animal links…
Casey:
That’s what it’s supposed to be.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Animal links show.
Jeff:
You told me we’re getting an all-animal links show today.
Casey:
It’s an all-animal links show.
Jeff:
I’m excited.
Casey:
So we’re gonna start off with one by our good friend, David Hellmann…
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
Who actually animated the Jeff & Casey Time animated series…
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
If you’ve seen that, that’s his work.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
And Raber Umphenour… They were the entirety of the animation team. He sent in a link that I suppose, since he is an artist…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
This is a somewhat important issue…
Jeff:
Yes, for him.
Casey:
For artistry…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
And it is that Wikipedia, recently, got into a spat…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
An actual, legitimate spat with the photographer over a copyright issue.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And that issue was the photographer was out doing nature photography…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
When a monkey stole his camera…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Like, he did not give the camera to the monkey. The monkey physically, forcefully took the camera from, I guess not from the person but he had, like, some camera sitting…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
’Cos a lot of nature photographers have multiple cameras, right… Took one of them and just ran away with it.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Now, later, when the man recovered his camera…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
He found that the monkey had taken, like, a shit ton of selfies.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right? So apparently, there’s…
Jeff:
He saw the reflection of himself in the glass or something…
Casey:
Yeah, who knows what he did.
Jeff:
But he’s… They legitimately… They’re framed. He’s smiling…
Casey:
He’s smiling.
Jeff:
He’s like, cheesing it up.
Casey:
Some of them are amazing.
Jeff:
And a lot of these… Most of people that follow the show would’ve heard about this…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
But even if you’ve never heard of this…
Casey:
You’ve seen the photo.
Jeff:
You’ve seen the photo ‘cos it was… I mean, in every… There were people using it for their avatars…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
It was everywhere.
Casey:
It was everywhere.
Jeff:
This was about a year ago when it happened.
Casey:
This was… Well, yeah…
Jeff:
Was it longer than that?
Casey:
No. When it actually first got taken, I don’t know, probably quite some time ago… Yes.
Jeff:
Yeah. Okay.
Casey:
But basically… You know, I mean, I don’t want to speak for the monkey.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
’Cos I think there’s been a lot of that going on.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Everyone thinks they know what the monkey is thinking and I don’t want to say that.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But what I am gonna say is I feel like…
Jeff:
We’re human… What’s mans-plaining? So human-splaining?
Casey:
I’m human-splaining.
Jeff:
I don’t want to human-splain.
Casey:
I don’t want to human-splain for the monkey.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But I feel like probably what happened was he looked up the manual online…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I think he probably switched it to Manual mode. None of this automatic shit.
Jeff:
Yeah, no, no, no. You’ve got to get the f/stop right.
Casey:
He wants to control the f/stop.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
He wants to control the ISO of that…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You know, ‘cos the fake ISO setting on the digital cameras, right…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
He wants to be able to set the White Balance, Jeff, because is he in the shade or in the sun…
Jeff:
I would be interested in what parts of the manual he went to ‘cos it’s usually like… The thick manual…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
It’s in English, French…
Casey:
Yes. Right.
Jeff:
And then it’s like, Monkey…
Casey:
Yes, exactly.
Jeff:
Is at the end, right?
Casey:
It’s like, “Where’s the Bonobo section here?”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“Did they translate it into my… It’s slightly different, you know…”
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Or whatever, than…
Jeff:
Alright, but continue. What’s the spat? They took these pictures…
Casey:
Okay. So he took these pictures.
Jeff:
His picture was everywhere.
Casey:
And I… To be honest with you, I have a Canon EOS 5D Mark II camera. It is a fairly famous type of camera…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It is a high end camera.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It takes excellent photos, it’s true.
Jeff:
It is.
Casey:
But it’s, you know, fairly complicated if you want to take a Manual Mode photo. So I don’t know what setting the chimp was on exactly. Well, it wasn’t a chimp I don’t think.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But whatever this particular primate had it set on…
Jeff:
Mhmm…
Casey:
But I’m just saying it was a pretty well-shot photo. I don’t know how much Photoshopping was done after the fact…
Jeff:
After the fact…
Casey:
But I feel like to get that quality of photo, even with some Photoshopping, he knew what he was doing. I don’t think this was a case of a monkey wildly snapping photos, Jeff. I think he had a particular frame in mind and he got it.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
He got it, okay? And this is not a camera made for taking selfies. This doesn’t have mirror.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
This is a complex, large…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Heavy, difficult to operate camera.
Jeff:
It does not surprise me when a monkey takes an iPhone selfie because…
Casey:
Anyone can do that.
Jeff:
Anyone can do that.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And also, all day long, they’re seeing people, like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Stand… Trying to get themselves with the monkey over their shoulder…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So he’s seen that.
Casey:
He knows what’s going on.
Jeff:
You don’t see someone setting up a 5D set-up.
Casey:
No. No one takes a selfie with a EOS 5D.
Jeff:
No, it’s crazy.
Casey:
That’s not a thing.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So this monkey broke new selfie ground. He didn’t get any credit for it, alright. Nobody even tried to credit the monkey when the photo was first disseminated to the world.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
No one said, “Here’s this monkey. His name’s Carl, whatever, he likes bananas. He does photography in his spare time,” right? “He’s. . .”
Jeff:
Right. That sounds like an OkCupid, like…
Casey:
You know, whatever… Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
“Hi, my name’s Carl.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Likes…
Casey:
Bananas…
Jeff:
Bananas, selfies…
Casey:
Selfies, right…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Shady trees.
Jeff:
Dislikes — Mean monkeys.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s usually “mean people”.
Casey:
Favorite shows — “Bedtime for Bonzo” or whatever, right.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, “I really think they captured what it means to be a monkey.” It’s true, too, because that’s one of the things that, like, you know… Like, if you watch “[ Choke ] versus Monkeys” or anything, you know that, like…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
There’s a lot of portrayal of monkeys in Hollywood that’s just not accurate. They’re used for background decoration, right? They are used as motivation for the human characters to do things. But they are not, themselves, represented. Their needs…
Jeff:
They are not wearing clothes.
Casey:
They’re naked. They’re just fucking [inaudible 14:28]
Jeff:
The people are wearing clothes everywhere.
Casey:
Yeah. Right. Exactly.
Jeff:
But the monkeys are almost always…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
If they are not completely naked…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
They are bottom-naked down, right?
Casey:
Exactly.
Jeff:
Because they know, like, that’s just there…
Casey:
It’s titillation is what it is. It’s just pure monkey titillation.
Jeff:
That’s probably why monkeys don’t watch shows as much, right?
Casey:
That’s probably why. I think if you want to appeal to a money demographic.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
If you want the sort of… If you want the rainforest demographic…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
If you want to be able to try and branch out into some of the more monkey-heavy… Because…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And I think this is something that people don’t appreciate. There’s a lot of money in that.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Okay? There’s a lot of monkey… Now granted it’s for barter. It’s like, bananas for Bitcoins kind of situation but…
Jeff:
You can [ make that one ].
Casey:
They want to be able to access this kind of entertainment…
Jeff:
Well…
Casey:
Where the main character looks like them, Jeff, and acts like them, that they can believe in…
Jeff:
Well, here’s the other thing.
Casey:
And I feel like it’s underserved is what I’m saying.
Jeff:
Well, it’s underserved and also, in the game industry in particular, there’s very few monkeys, right?
Casey:
Very few.
Jeff:
In tech, it’s like .001%… Yeah.
Casey:
I’ve never even worked in a company that had a monkey at all.
Jeff:
Yeah. Facebook has a lot of monkeys but most…
Casey:
Facebook does. It’s true.
Jeff:
Game companies don’t have a lot of monkeys.
Casey:
Facebook and Google…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Google is out of their way, definitely, to try and have as much primatology as they can…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And I think that does foster a good work environment. But the other problem is, like, it’s just bananas over there, right, at some point.
Jeff:
Yeah, sometimes. Yes.
Casey:
Anyway, point being… Putting all of that aside for now, what ended up happening is, in typical human fashion, Jeff…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
The photographer then tried to claim copyright on this photo.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Now, he had nothing to do with this photo, right? All he did was post it online…
Jeff:
Right, right, right.
Casey:
That’s it.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay? He did not take the photo…
Jeff:
Basically stole credit, like?
Casey:
He did not set up the photo…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
He didn’t even give the camera to the monkey. The monkey had to steal it.
Jeff:
Yeah, it was only… The only ownership he can claim there is it was his equipment.
Casey:
That’s right. The only thing he can… And now, that has never been the basis for copyright anywhere. That’s never been a thing.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
To the point…
Jeff:
You could definitely… The photographer might be able to sue the monkey for stealing that…
Casey:
That’s right.
Jeff:
Or damages to the thing…
Casey:
That’s correct.
Jeff:
But he can’t claim…
Casey:
Nope.
Jeff:
That the photo is now his.
Casey:
That’s correct.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So we all know this intuitively.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s obvious, right? It’s the reason why, when you sign an employment contract, right…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It says specifically…
Jeff:
Work for hire or not. Yeah.
Casey:
Well, no. What I was gonna say is it says specifically you may not use company equipment…
Jeff:
Oh, right. Yes.
Casey:
Or anything you do on a company that’s owned by you is because that’s not the default.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It is not the default that if you were to use your company’s equipment to make something, that you wouldn’t own it.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You would.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And so, they have to specifically say, “No, you won’t.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And the monkey never signed that.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
He never signed that contract, Jeff.
Jeff:
I don’t think it’s convenient.
Casey:
I don’t think he signed anything.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
If anything, I think he was under the impression that whatever he did as stealing the camera and everything. It’s all part of the art.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Okay? That’s how he does his photography. He takes and then he gives back, Jeff.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That’s part of his whole thing.
Jeff:
Right. But also, I feel like in… I don’t know… This happened in Africa? Is that right?
Casey:
I believe so but…
Jeff:
I don’t know where monkeys are. It could be South America.
Casey:
Well, you know what, I’ll check.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Why don’t you keep saying what you’re saying but I’ll check.
Jeff:
What I was gonna say is I don’t know what the work rules are in… ‘Cos even in the United States…”
Casey:
It was in Indonesia.
Jeff:
Indonesia, okay. So in Indonesia, I don’t know what the work laws are.
Casey:
Okay, yes. Right.
Jeff:
Because it’s different in different states.
Casey:
That’s a good point. Jurisdictionally, it’s different.
Jeff:
Yeah. And how that plays out depends on, you know, whether it’s “Monkey see, monkey do” state, right?
Casey:
Right, that’s right or “hear no evil, see no evil”…
Jeff:
Yeah, like, all these situations kick in.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And then you have to apply them. And I don’t know what their laws are.
Casey:
That’s true. Right.
Jeff:
And a lot of times, they don’t have, like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You know…
Casey:
Because it’s a bit of a slippery banana peel. Like, if you go down…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
A particular path and you start saying things like, “Oh, whoever owns the equipment owns the copyright,” right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s a short hop from that to monkey exploitation, in my opinion, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You’re kind of like… We’re trying to bring it back. And one of the things that people don’t appreciate is, like… You know, a lot of monkeys out there do appreciate how their 4 monkeys had to fight for a lot of the things that they have.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, the 5-day workweek, okay. It wasn’t that. It used to be 7 days a week monkeys had to take selfies.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But now, you know… Because of unions, because of hard-fought victories. And we don’t want to… I don’t want to see that given up. And I don’t think this monkey does, either so…
Jeff:
Now, this was… The other thing that was interesting about the story… And this plays into my personal prejudices a little bit.
Casey:
Okay. Yeah. Well, everyone has them.
Jeff:
And that is… And we all have them. And my personal one is I absolutely hate photographers.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So…
Casey:
Yes, that’s true.
Jeff:
In this case, it’s hard for me I am racist to photographers…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And photography in general…
Casey:
Right. Yes.
Jeff:
And so, just putting that out there before I say this…
Casey:
Yes. Right.
Jeff:
Because I’m going to say that most photographers…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Are…
Casey:
Trained monkeys.
Jeff:
Trained monkeys.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Because you have…
Casey:
But we know that’s not true. We know that’s not true because this monkey had no training. So really, photographers are just monkeys at some level.
Jeff:
They’re just monkeys. Alright.
Casey:
Yes, pretty much.
Jeff:
That’s true.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
They’re untrained monkeys
Casey:
Untrained monkeys, yeah.
Jeff:
And so… And this is me being completely serious.
Casey:
Yeah, I know. That’s true.
Jeff:
I have photo--… Like, I shouldn’t even say this. I like photos.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And I like beautiful photos. I have no respect for photography at all especially the…
Casey:
What you’re trying to say is… Let’s not be over-inflammatory. What you’re trying to say is photography is not difficult. And you’re correct.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
You know why? Because a fucking monkey can do it. One of the most popular photographs in recent memory…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Was by a monkey.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay? And I’ll be honest, it’s one of the best monkey photos I’ve ever seen.
Jeff:
Right, exactly.
Casey:
So people who have spent their whole life “studying nature photography” don’t take as good monkey photos as the monkey.
Jeff:
Right. So my thing on photography is it’s usually somebody who’s willing to sit in insufferable conditions and get lucky.
Casey:
Which is a skill, to some degree.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
It’s at least endurance.
Jeff:
It’s hard for me to call that an art form because…
Casey:
But it’s work.
Jeff:
It is…
Casey:
It is work.
Jeff:
Right. But it’s more journalism to me than it is art form, right?
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
It is just taking a picture.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Because the act of… And then, you know, I’ve had this argument before with people who are photography fans and actually who are more learned in photography than I am. And they usually… They have some stories of, like, “Oh, hey, there’s this very famous photo where he couldn’t get the Queen to, like…” I think it was the Queen or princess or something to look right. So this photographer, like, right before he takes this very famous photo that I’d even seen before…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
He slapped her.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And then took a picture. I’m like… And that is… They used this… He’s like, “No, that’s because they’re an artist.” And I’m like…
Casey:
That’s because they’re a dick is what you meant to say.
Jeff:
And I’m like… Everything about that is just asshole. Like… So anyway…
Casey:
The only thing about that, though, is that that story is, like, the most universally told story. And they just… They, like, sub in whatever they want…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, any time you read a book on movies, that story up there… It’s like, they’re trying to get a performance out of someone and they couldn’t so they slapped them.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And then, they… Right?
Jeff:
Yeah. The other…
Casey:
I have literally heard it so many times…
Jeff:
So many times, yeah…
Casey:
But I have never actually seen… It’s like, I’m waiting for the day that I go into RAD Game Tools and someone’s code is sucking. And someone slaps them…
Jeff:
Slaps them.
Casey:
And then they program this great thing…
Jeff:
Oh, right.
Casey:
But they’re crying the whole time.
Jeff:
You can slap me.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
You can slap me next time.
Casey:
I’m not gonna slap you.
Jeff:
So the…
Casey:
Let’s get back to the story.
Jeff:
Yeah, yeah. So…
Casey:
[ Let’s go to the story now ]…
Jeff:
What I was just gonna say…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
The other thing about photography as an art form…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That they’re undergoing this thing of…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
They’re trying to get it… They’re undergoing a problem which is they always sold these prints of their own photos, right?
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Because photography is a big business.
Casey:
And it used to be that there was a lot more skill involved…
Jeff:
Developing. . .
Casey:
Like, training to develop the photos…
Jeff:
In a certain way…
Casey:
And a lot more equipment, you have a dark room and you have to have specific types of film and all this stuff and all this stuff.
Jeff:
Yeah. But in the digital world, they’re in this whole problem. And I told you when I bought photos for my house, how the first gallery that I was doing…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
The photos came with a EULA that said I could only hang them for 10 years. And after that, they expect you to destroy the photos.
Casey:
What does that even mean?
Jeff:
Because they were like, “This is how we get…” Like, in the digital age, we get the…
Casey:
Cache of it…
Jeff:
Scarcity…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And its artificial scarcity, like…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Makes photos worth money…
Casey:
Yeah. It’s DRM. It’s another DRM situation.
Jeff:
So yeah, anyway. So photography, I’m already in a bad situation so I’m predisposed… I’m just laying it out and I’m predisposed to find in favor of the monkey…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
But let’s continue going through the possibilities.
Casey:
Yes. I agree with all that because basically, photography is trivial in my mind.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And this is as someone who does a fair bit of photography. It’s absolutely trivial to do. It is the… I can’t think of an… I have done so many different art forms in my life. I have many, right, that I can do. And I have never found one that is as easy as photography. Like, if you are just gonna ask me, “Casey, you need to train somebody to do something. You can pick whatever it is.” You know, it would… Absolutely, the first [ I’d try ] is photography.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s like, anybody can learn to do this.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It would take me a few hours to teach you to be a photographer that was totally indistinguishable from someone who had [inaudible 23:23]
Jeff:
There’s another thing, actually, as a side thing of photography now where, like, taking portrait… Like, when I take a… When I’m trying to take a picture of myself…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And you’re sitting there, trying to get a good picture.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The right way to do that now is with these great cameras…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Just take a fucking video…
Casey:
Yeah, just [ rub it ]. Yeah.
Jeff:
And then you just slide back, “Alright, here’s where I’m not blinking, not doing, not… Okay. Boom. Done.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And it’s still, like…
Casey:
Was that what you did for your OkCupid page? Was that how you got that one?
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s my OkCupid. Yeah.
Casey:
So anyway, back to the story at hand.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So what happened here was this unscrupulous “photographer”… In quotes, because you’ll know he did not take a photo…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So I don’t know why we’re calling him a photographer.
Jeff:
You’re not putting the quotes under unscrupulous.
Casey:
No, he…
Jeff:
You moved it over to photographer…
Casey:
To photographer…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because what photo did he take? We’re not talking about his photos.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We’ve never seen any of his photos, okay.
Jeff:
That’s a… Okay…
Casey:
This is the monkey’s photo that we’re talking about.
Jeff:
Just to push another thing on the stack…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
If you wanted to say, like, “alleged photographer”…
Casey:
Yes. Yes.
Jeff:
I’ve never seen, in print, like, “alleged photographer”. Like…
Casey:
But alleged is already its own self-quotation. Like, you don’t need to put quotes around it.
Jeff:
Yeah. No, but I’ve just never seen the double quotation…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Where both things are meant…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Yeah, alright. Sorry, go ahead.
Casey:
I would have used… I wouldn’t use “alleged”.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because nobody is “alleging” it. I would’ve used “so-called”.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right? That is the actual English word we’re talking about.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because he is…
Jeff:
Self-proclaimed.
Casey:
Nobody is alleging anything here.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
The facts are not in dispute.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
What we’re doing is arguing over who should be called what.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right? Like, what this entitles you to be called, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So the so-called photographer, who as far as we know… I mean, we don’t… We haven’t seen any of his…
Jeff:
Let’s call him the camera owner because he didn’t take a picture.
Casey:
Okay, there you go. That’s it. That’s the truth. Okay.
Jeff:
We don’t even know if he took all the other pictures. This could be his…
Casey:
How could he? The monkey stole the fucking camera.
Jeff:
Right. Okay.
Casey:
He didn’t have a camera. What’s he taking pictures with? His iPhone?
Jeff:
The camera owner…
Casey:
The camera owner…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
In Indonesia, okay, takes the camera back from the monkey at some point.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
He then proceeds to post this photo that the monkey took.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because the monkey didn’t know to take the SD card, right. This is one of those things where the cops take the camera [ in Ferguson ], right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, you’ve got to get that… We need to teach monkeys that when they’re doing protest photography, you take the SD card out as soon as you so that when the cops take your shit…
Jeff:
Or you str--… Or you’re, like, just always streaming.
Casey:
Yeah, one of those web… Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like a satellite camera or something.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But anyway… But it’s not his camera so he didn’t have that option.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
[ It’s found art… ] Anyway, the monkey takes a photo. The camera owner takes the camera back, proceeds to post the photo all over the place, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
No thought for the monkey, doesn’t give the monkey shit.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
At all…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And then, he has a audacity, this camera owner, to tell Wikipedia to take down a copy of the digital photo that they have posted on one of their articles…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because it’s his…
Jeff:
Photo.
Casey:
“Copyrighted photo”.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Now, Wikipedia (and in my mind, completely rightfully so)…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Argues back, “You don’t own the copyright ‘cos you had nothing to do with this photo.”
Jeff:
Right. The monkey pressed the button.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
Is there… I think that’s even in the thing. Like, it… They say something like the monkey either took the picture or the monkey pressed the button.
Casey:
The thing that’s in quotes, it said… Well, the title of the article was, “Wikipedia Refuses to Delete Photo as ‘Monkey Owns It’”.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
That’s what they said. So the monkey owns it…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Which is probably the title of this podcast.
Jeff:
Right. “The Monkey Owns It”.
Casey:
Just straight up is “The Monkey Owns It”. But anyway, the point being Wikipedia says this. And now, we had some discussions about this. And surprisingly, I felt, I was one of the only people who (and obviously, I’m a biased reporter) knew about the fact that who owns the materials has nothing to do with who owns a copyright.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
This is apparently not something that was made clear to people in general. And maybe I am wrong about that. Maybe it’s time for me to go read the Berne Convention or something again…
Jeff:
And see what…
Casey:
And refresh my memory. But my understanding was that it is the act of making the thing…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
That entitles you to a copyright. And the goods and services involved are irrelevant.
Jeff:
Right. And certainly, that should… And in that Casey way, I figure you’ll go look this up.
Casey:
Probably.
Jeff:
But I would say, morally, I think it’s hard to ever argue that that isn’t the rule that you want because then, it really locks our creation up into people that can afford the equipment to make it.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Not even for a thievery…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But like, reusing equipment or…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Imagine, because this is happening…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Like, camera equipment that is so good…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That it sets the exposure perfectly…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You can imagine a point…
Casey:
It’s licensed for something…
Jeff:
Where, like, algorithmic licenses…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Are to a photo…
Casey:
But nobody owns these photos.
Jeff:
That you don’t really own the photos.
Casey:
Facebook owns these photos…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because they shipped you the camera or whatever.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s like…
Jeff:
And so, we need to be like… No, it’s the person who makes it…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That is…
Casey:
I agree with that and I would almost go so far as to say that the world would probably be a much better place if we were even more aggressive about that. So one thing that I would’ve thought would be a huge improvement to our intellectual property laws is that they’re un-transferrable. So I would have said that you may not sell copyrights or patents.
Jeff:
Oh, right.
Casey:
Meaning, they are strictly…
Jeff:
To you.
Casey:
To the people that have them and you have to then…
Jeff:
You monetize it or not.
Casey:
You monetize it or it doesn’t get monetized.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Now, I realize it creates a bunch of other problems. But in today’s marketplace, I think that would have led to a more equitable distribution of wealth, personally.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Because it means everyone who worked on this game are the people who get paid for the game. And industry has to evolve around that rather than it evolving to exploit the people who work on stuff…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But putting that stuff aside, because that’s a whole other topic (how do you structure things that way and blablabla), what I think we can say definitively is that the US Patent and Trademark office I would say not only affirmed this but actually went one step further… And this is a little bit of a troubling step further because they did not strictly agree with me when they…
Jeff:
Yeah. They did rule on this.
Casey:
[ Weighed in on “the monkey owns this” ].
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Siding with me would’ve said yes, the man owns the materials but that’s not relevant. The monkey did the work. Therefore, he owns the photo.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
What they said is nobody owns the photo because a monkey can’t have a copyright…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And the monkey did the work.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That’s what they said.
Jeff:
Right. This is one of those situations where monkey lawyers all over the world as like, “Fuck!”
Casey:
Well, monkey lawyers aren’t necessarily… Because it wasn’t a Supreme Court ruling. So monkey lawyers could very easily challenge this in court.
Jeff:
Oh, okay.
Casey:
Now, if the Supreme Court goes down…
Jeff:
This is not over yet.
Casey:
This is not over by a long shot. I think monkey artists everywhere are lawyer-ing up right now. They will probably file a class action lawsuit, right, to try and get that addressed, right.
Jeff:
Well, interestingly…
Casey:
’Cos you’ll know. And I’m gonna be very specific here. Copyright and patents stem solely from e clause in the Constitution which says that Congress has the right to grant inventors for a limited time…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Exclusive sort of ownership over their work for the purposes of advancing the arts and sciences.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It does not say…
Jeff:
For profit… Right.
Casey:
Human arts and sciences…
Jeff:
Oh, that’s true. You’re right.
Casey:
There is nothing in there. It just says “Inventors” or… I don’t remember exactly what it says but it does not say humans.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
So this brings to mind something… I think I told you the story, how we were coming back from Italy and I watched “12 Years a Slave” on the fucking plane…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And it’s a fucking hard movie to watch.
Casey:
Okay. Alright.
Jeff:
And I kept my shit together…
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
All the way through this movie. All the way. I’m like… I mean, I wanted to cry in many places…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I kept my shit together because I’m on a fucking plane.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
I get to the point where he comes back ‘cos he gets abducted, sold into slavery… They finally find him after 12 years…
Casey:
Yo, fucking spoiler warning…
Jeff:
Okay. Oh, yeah. Alright. That’s true. It’s been a year and a half. At some point…
Casey:
I’m just kidding. The fact that it’s called “12 Years a Slave” kind of lets you know…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
That there’s an ending there. Yeah.
Jeff:
Anyway, he comes back and meets his children now grown up. And I just… At that point…
Casey:
You lost it?
Jeff:
I lost it.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
And to be clear, I lost it in a crazy way.
Casey:
Okay. Alright.
Jeff:
Like, I was sobbing. I wasn’t… It wasn’t like, “Oh, I lost it…”
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
It was, like, all the build-up…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Finally, that dam broke.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
It was, like… And Dawn’s like, “Are you alright?”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
’Cos I… It went bad.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Anyway…
Casey:
So you were like “Bachelors in Paradise” all over the place? You were just like, this is one of the crazy guys. He’s crying all over the airplane… What the fuck is going on here?
Jeff:
It was bad. It was bad. And like…
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
People are looking. It was bad.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
Anyway, I get my shit together. And we get home, whatever. And I go and read the story of what happened to him after. And he knows who abducted him so he tried to sue them for kidnapping…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And they ruled against him because even at that point, they were not considered people. So they were not considered… They did not have rights…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Under the…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
So he lost…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Even in the north for this… And actually, it may have been that he may have had to file it where he was. It was in a Southern state.
Casey:
Yeah. That’s what I was gonna say. I suspected that.
Jeff:
But anyway, it was just so God damned cruel. And this is the… Like, right when you’re like, “Okay, I’m finally gonna get my monkey photography rights,” they’re like, “You’re not even… You don’t even get to own shit. Not only do you not own that. You don’t own the bananas and your own home.”
Casey:
So, here’s the thing. That would be an interesting case to read about ‘cos I know how you would probably file that case if you were clever. So I wonder if that was because his lawyers weren’t very clever. I mean, obviously, you’re going into a tough battle there because, you know, I’m sure that judges are going to be reticent to find in favor of a Black man at that period in history.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Just in general, right? But I feel like if you’re an enterprising sort of lawyer who just likes to win and is like, “This is obviously a very strong case. I’m gonna see what I can do.” I feel like there’s a good spin there. So what I would do is I would say this is a Commerce Clause issue.
Jeff:
Oh.
Casey:
The Federal government has the right to step in to adjudicate any interstate commerce issues.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
If one state allows their citizenry to take slaves from another state…
Jeff:
Then you’re crossing state lines and commerce…
Casey:
And it’s a Commerce Clause issue… Right?
Jeff:
But then they used commerce in something like that… I can’t remember the specific case but there was one similar to this where they actually used the Commerce Clause.
Casey:
I feel like that’s the way to go.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Commerce Clause is definitely better because you can’t go Equal Rights because that wasn’t established yet, right? Black people didn’t have rights.
Jeff:
Isn’t Commerce used for all kinds of crazy stuff now?
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Like, a lot of the Federal drug trafficking stuff is Commerce-oriented, like…
Casey:
Well, the problem is… With the Commerce Clause… And I feel like I’m being pretty fair with the Commerce Clause there. I’m not overstating the Commerce Clause because that is literally a… So, you see the trick that I pulled there, right? Or at least was trying to pull in a lawyerly sense… Was that you are playing into the prejudice of the judiciate, right? You are not trying to stand there and say, “Black people have rights,” which they’re just gonna fuck you. Right? They’re gonna be like, “No, they don’t.” And then you’re done, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And so you’re fucked. So what you’re trying to do is game the system and say, “No, no, no. Don’t worry. Slaves are goods and services. But…”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“This was an illegal action because these goods belonged to somebody in a different state,” right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So you’re totally playing into their, like, “Don’t worry. You can still be a Whitey.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You don’t have to be progressive.
Jeff:
Right, right.
Casey:
This is a straight [inaudible 35:09] And I feel like, you know, as much as we like to celebrate Supreme Court victories that are idealistic, that’s not the way most of them go.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Most of them are all about figuring out the angle that lets the judges rule the way they want to rule, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Giving them the angle where they feel good about picking this thing…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
That’s all what it is. You just got to read the bench, right?
Jeff:
And not only… Yeah.
Casey:
Like, that’s what it’s all about. And so…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I feel like you might have a shot. But that being said, I haven’t read any Supreme Court cases from that era in history. So I don’t know if he could’ve made it.
Jeff:
There were 2… If I remember right (and this was a couple months ago), there were 2 cases and he lost both of them on technicalities like that. I can’t remember what the other one was. The other one was he… Yeah, I can’t remember what the other… ‘Cos he sued somebody for abduction and then someone for selling without the proper paperwork or something…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
’Cos you needed to prove that they weren’t free men…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And his paperwork was stolen from him to get in there. And that one failed for another reason and it was also something…
Casey:
They’d be tough cases. I mean, like, you would… I’m sure you would’ve been a superstar lawyer if you could’ve won those cases, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
’Cos the deck is stacked against you so badly. Because even… I mean, you have to look at… Up through… For Civil Rights history, right, even after emancipation, Black people had a huge trouble in the court.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It wasn’t like they turned the switch and it was like, “Oh,” suddenly you have rights. No. there was, like, another fucking hundred years of them getting fucked in courts, as well. So, like, I don’t deny…
Jeff:
Well, and then this continues to--…
Casey:
Yeah, well…
Jeff:
Like, the number of people in jail are Black, I guess.
Casey:
Yes, but significantly less but yes.
Jeff:
I mean, it’s not as egregious. It’s just this sort of systematic tilting.
Casey:
It was… But it gets pushed down levels of the judiciary, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Supreme Court cases are less likely to be pejorative…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
To minorities than they used to be, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But lower court cases…
Jeff:
It’s full on…
Casey:
Minorities are still fucked. Routinely. There’s no… I mean, I don’t think anyone could look at the lower level court system and not think so because it’s kind of blatantly obvious at some level, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But anyway, so moving past all of that…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So US PTO obviously finds…
Jeff:
So here’s a question I had about this…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
About this particular case is…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It seemed like Wikipedia said, “No, the monkey took it.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And then, there was a ruling, very quickly, saying that, “No. Nobody owns it.” How did that happen so fast?
Casey:
Well, that’s because, like I said, it wasn’t a ruling. It was not a court ruling. The US PTO issued refresher guidelines. They were just basically, “We’re just issuing our guidelines.” And one of the things they were very clear to mention in this very large document about guidelines is that if animals take a photo, nobody owns it. Like, it was in the thing.
Jeff:
Was that in response or was this just something in the works that came out near it? ‘Cos it’s just weird that the government responded to something…
Casey:
Okay. Yeah.
Jeff:
Within internet timeframes of, like… This story was not old before, like, there was a…
Casey:
Yeah. So you could go read about that. I don’t know. I didn’t investigate on that specifically. But I believe it was… No, it was not in response to it in the sense that the… Like, the actual report was going to be coming out. So it wasn’t like… I don’t think they issued a special report about “Monkey Owns It”. Like, I don’t think that was what happened.
Jeff:
But they were watching YouTube and they realized, like, “Oh, fuck. We gotta…”
Casey:
But I do suspect that this had been something that had been brought to their attention. So in their guidelines, they included very explicit things like, “It is our understanding that monkeys cannot own photos and you do not own them if the monkey takes it.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
End of story. That was my…
Jeff:
Here’s… That’s a good ruling. Now, here’s a situation…
Casey:
It’s not a ruling. It’s a guideline.
Jeff:
Sorry. It’s a good guideline.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So here’s something that you can act upon that…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
As, you know, this photographer’s not gonna make any money…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
YouTube… I mean, Google, Amazon, Netflix…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Are all funding now…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Creative endeavors, both in…
Casey:
Okay, yes…
Jeff:
Movies and online series because they want to lock up the right…
Casey:
I see what you’re saying. You’re basically saying…
Jeff:
Just drop some cameras into Indonesia.
Casey:
Drones… Drones… They all have Drone programs, too. So drone drop cameras into a bunch of different places.
Jeff:
You’re gonna get some sitcoms. That’s just gonna happen. It’s the whole monkeys… Or a thousand selfies…
Casey:
Here’s the thing. Why doesn’t this monkey have a Tumblr?
Jeff:
Yeah. This is true.
Casey:
This monkey is obviously a star photographer. Where is his Tumblr?
Jeff:
Yeah. That’s right.
Casey:
That’s what I want to know.
Jeff:
Right. Well, every time this happens… ‘Cos these people… And I’m one of them, to be clear. People love when animals take video…
Casey:
Yeah, well, you do, anyway.
Jeff:
They imagine the animal is documenting his life.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, when they put the little cameras on the cat’s neck…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And they show them walking around and drinking water…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And chasing a thing…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Those are always super popular…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
So I feel like you could actually just, like… I’m just… We’re just gonna put this on everybody. Like…
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
And you don’t care because really, you just want content to fill your service, right?
Casey:
Right. And I know what you’re thinking out there. You’re like, “Well, okay. But then, there’s just gonna be hundreds of thousands of hours of video. How do we extract, like, the good parts?” More monkeys.
Jeff:
Right, more monkeys.
Casey:
You just have a second set of monkeys who are watching these videos and, like, pushing buttons…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right? Like, when the video is good… And then maybe we have a monkey reward system that kind of, like, gives them bananas when they pick a good… When there’s a lot of likes… A lot of likes on one of their links…
Jeff:
[ Certainly, if you ] read the comments on YouTube, it’s unclear whether it’s a human or monkey writing them ‘cos they’re certainly, like, pretty bananas in that regard.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Well, yeah. I was surprised that the ruling happened as quickly as it did.
Casey:
It’s not a ruling.
Jeff:
Not a ruling… I just…
Casey:
It’s their report that they issue periodically…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
That’s, like, guidelines for copywriting.
Jeff:
So does that mean that the photographer now will try to sue to get it back? ‘Cos is the money…
Casey:
He already was suing. He was suing Wikipedia.
Jeff:
But that’s going to continue…
Casey:
I don’t know.
Jeff:
Then he needs to decide whether he’s going to lose or not.
Casey:
Yeah, I don’t know. He might be dismissed because of this thing…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, it’s pretty clear here…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So like, then the guy will have to decide whether he wants to take it to the Supreme Court because he’s going to have to basically, like, overturn the US PTO’s own guidelines. So he’s gonna have to get a ruling from a fairly high judiciary… Like, if the White House says you don’t fucking own the photo…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You can’t just get some bullshit judge in your County to say, “No, you do.” Like, that’s not how that works, right? So he’s gonna have to get a Federal judge to say that, “No, he does own the photo.” And so, I don’t know if that’s how he’s filing this case and, if so, where he’s gonna take it.
Jeff:
Right. Right.
Casey:
But originally, it was just against Wikipedia which is a very different thing. He was just having a copyright dispute with Wikipedia. But now, the question is… Now, he basically has a copyright issue with the Federal government if he wants to get it back.
Jeff:
Right. So I have a separate question that you would probably know the answer to is when things like encyclopedias or books show pictures of things that are copyrighted or owned by somebody like, you know, excerpts of a book or, like, a famous photo, like, here’s this painting and here’s the story and you go look at it…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is there not rights for educational purposes to use material like that?
Casey:
Yes. So there…
Jeff:
So it seems like Wikipedia would be okay anyway.
Casey:
So… Okay. Here’s what I’ll say. There’s 2 things to say about that.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So first of all, that is Fair Use Doctrine.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So that means that it is still a court issue because anyone can contest that it wasn’t Fair Use.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
So let’s say that someone… The Encyclopedia Britannica makes an entry about Jeff Roberts, right, and uses an excerpt from your blog…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
You could still sue them, saying that this was not really that educational. It was really not necessary. It was just fucking copyright infringement.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And certainly, let’s say to make a more blatant example, the Encyclopedia Britannica makes an entry… Well, no one knows what that is anymore.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Wikipedia makes an entry called Jeff Roberts and the contents of that entry is just your complete blog from start to finish.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I think that we would all agree that that was a copyright violation, right? That is not Fair Use. That’s just them fucking blatantly stealing all your shit and posting it somewhere else.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So somewhere, it crosses the line between…
Jeff:
I see. Right.
Casey:
A legitimate educational excerpt, right?
Jeff:
Or something more… Like, if the Encyclopedia Britannica started putting Britney Spears on the front…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And it’s like, “B for Britney”, you’d be like, “Wait a minute, you’re just using her image to sell your book.” Separate thing?
Casey:
Well, okay, but that’s a separate thing, too. Okay, that’s…
Jeff:
But you couldn’t claim fair use for that because you’re using…
Casey:
But that’s not a copyright violation. That’s a different kind of law.
Jeff:
Oh…
Casey:
So there’s a lot of things in play here. You’re asking me a lot of questions as if I’m a copyright expert. And I agree that I’m a copyright among our friends but that is not the same as a copyright expert in toto.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So let’s start with the original question because I wasn’t done. So Fair Use Law basically says that there are a number of exceptions to standard Copyright Law in order to provide for situations that we all agree are beneficial, right? And educational purposes is one of those. So the reason that they can do limited excerpts of your blog and other stuff like that is because it is of educational nature and so on…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
There are also established guidelines that has to do with who owns what information when. So for example, if you want to say that Jeff Roberts loves animal links, right?
Jeff:
Yes. He does.
Casey:
Yeah, exactly. You want to say things like this. Now, there’s a question of, well, where did that… Who owned that information? Who did… Like, when you’re stating things, where did you get that from? If there’s only one article on the internet posted by Casey Muratori, his friend or something like this, that talks about Jeff owning animal links, now the question is are they plagiarizing me? Are they violating my copyright…
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
By basically just stealing the work that I did to research you and just fucking stuffing in their encyclopedia because that’s a different kind of copyright violation. It’s not your copyright…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But it’s mine now. And I think that the guideline for that is 3 citations. If you can find 3 places that this thing is said, you no longer have to credit the place where you got the information from individually, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So it becomes unattributed at that point.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Because otherwise, they could basically say that you were just, you know, stealing their work…
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
And it’s like, “No, not anymore,” right, and passing it off as your own, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You could still do that if you’re just talking about a small thing with a citation because that’s Fair Use. But you have to cite it usually, I think. I don’t know. So things get mixed up in there. And that, I have no knowledge about. So I’m, like, the exact wrong person to ask about information stuff. The only reason I know that is ‘cos I remember, like, the Microsoft Encarta team had to document, like, 3 places they found stuff when they were putting together their entries and everything. So that one, I’ve never looked at court cases for and don’t know what it technically falls under. But the excerpt stuff, I do know. So excerpt is Fair Use Law…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Definitely true. That is clear. No question there. So if you’re talking about the other thing which is using someone’s likeness in a business sense, right…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So you’re talking about putting Britney Spears on the cover. That’s not necessarily copyright. And the reason that’s not necessarily copyright is, for example, I take a photo of Britney Spears, right…
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
She doesn’t own that photo. She has no rights in copyright to that photo whatsoever. The only thing she might be able to claim is if, like, it’s her custom-designed outfit and lighting display at a concert that I was…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Sort of… Right? There’s some nuances there but famous people do not…
Jeff:
Out in the open…
Casey:
Famous people in a public setting do not have a right to their image.
Jeff:
Right. That makes sense because you have the paparazzi and…
Casey:
That is actually, like, legitimate news photography at that point, right. So when I put a picture of Britney Spears on the cover of a book, right, I am not violating her copyright in any way by doing that. So as far as I know, that would be a completely separate type of lawsuit that has nothing to do with copyright.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It would be some kind of… I don’t even know. I have no idea…
Jeff:
So use of image versus, like…
Casey:
Use of image is totally different…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And what I can tell you for sure is if you wanted to sell a painting of Britney Spears that you made, 100% legal. They have no recourse.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So you can go… And the reason for that is because there has been court cases where people have done famous paintings of famous people. In fact, I think it was Tiger Woods was one of the people who got…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
There was this lawsuit involving… I can’t remember. But anyway, point being there are lawsuits involving people who’d made a painting of somebody. They sued them saying, “That is [ destroying ] my image for my… No one would’ve bought this picture if I wasn’t in,” right, or whatever the fuck…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And they lost. Like, they said no. A painting… If you are in the public sphere, you’re a famous person, and someone wants to paint your likeness, they own the painting…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You don’t. Done.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
As long as you don’t try to endorse it like, “Tiger Woods said this was great,” or something, you know?
Jeff:
Or like the Michael Jackson Boat Cruise where you’re like… Put Michael Jackson…
Casey:
I don’t know what that is but okay.
Jeff:
We went on a Michael Jackson in New York.
Casey:
Oh, really?
Jeff:
And it was 100% non-Michael Jackson estate authorized.
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
It was clear. And they actually… It said the Michael Jackson Boat Cruise brought to you by the Michael Jackson Charity.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And then, you looked at it closely and it says…
Casey:
“Not affiliated with Michael Jackson”?
Jeff:
Yeah, it says like that and it also says, “Charity for World Records and…”
Casey:
World Records?
Jeff:
Yeah. It says, “The charities are for World Records and charity.” So they actually said the charity is for charity which was awesome.
Casey:
What is World Records?
Jeff:
Apparently, they’re the ones that do that thing in Central Park once a year where they try to get 10,000 people to dance the Thriller dance.
Casey:
That’s a charity?
Jeff:
And they claim that is a charity.
Casey:
That’s not a charity.
Jeff:
That’s what they claim.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Well, this was the jankiest thing.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
First of…
Casey:
Why were you on this in the first place?
Jeff:
’Cos we thought it’d be hysterical…
Casey:
And it was.
Jeff:
And it was.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Oh, but the best part was the guy in front of me in line. So they bring… They say “banquet”.
Casey:
Okay, yeah, alright. There’s not gonna be a banquet.
Jeff:
When we’re sitting there in line, a Station Wagon, like a 1970’s Station Wagon opens and they pulled out these…
Casey:
The banquet mobile is what you mean to say.
Jeff:
They pulled this food out of the back. I’m like, “This isn’t good.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And then they had little candles to heat it.
Casey:
Yep. Oh, yeah.
Jeff:
So, that’s good ‘cos you want a candle on a boat.
Casey:
You’re gonna chafe that shit. That’s a little bit of chafing going on.
Jeff:
So we’re waiting in line to get some of the shitty food and the guy in front of me is dressed like Michael Jack--… The white suit and the black shirt.
Casey:
Oh, God damn it.
Jeff:
And they’re playing the music…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
He’s dancing in line. So he’d, like, spin around…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Moonwalk away…
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
And then Moonwalk right back to his place in line. It was awesome.
Casey:
That’s pretty stylish, actually. I’ll give it that.
Jeff:
I was dying. We have pictures…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Of him scooping rice onto his plate.
Casey:
Michael Jackson eats rice.
Jeff:
That one I was, like, “There is no way…”
Casey:
Sorry, not actually Michael Jackson.
Jeff:
There is no way this is legit.
Casey:
So should we get to the last animal link now?
Jeff:
We kind of burned through the whole hour.
Casey:
This is bad. Okay, so we’re gonna have to do a speed round here.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
We need to do it in, like… We’ve got 10 or 20 minutes left [inaudible 50:40]
Jeff:
Alright. Let’s do it. I’m ready.
Casey:
Okay. The next one is, Jeff, and this is basically 100% a question for you because someone sent this in.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Okay. And actually, you know what, I’ve made note of it, who sent it in. So why don’t I say that. It is someone named Skylar Freeman.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I don’t think I recognize his name. So he may be a new person writing in or… I don’t know.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
But Skylar…
Jeff:
Skylar Freeman sounds super familiar to me.
Casey:
Okay. So maybe you know him. I don’t know.
Jeff:
Maybe he’s been… I think he’s been a long…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
He might be, like, an early listener.
Casey:
Skylar Freeman wrote in.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And he wanted to know what you thought about “Man Kicks Squirrel Off Grand Canyon”. Have you seen this video?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
So there is a video… And PETA apparently lost their shit and has a public bounty placed on the head…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Of whoever did this. They said, “If you can identify this person and it leads to a conviction or something, we’ll pay $15,000.” They put a bounty on this guy.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Somebody videotaped a guy kicking a squirrel off the Grand Canyon. The name speaks for itself, okay.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And you could watch this on YouTube. There is literally a squirrel and a guy just kicks it off the Grand Canyon.
Jeff:
There isn’t a terms of use to pull that down? I’m surprised…
Casey:
Oh, okay. I shouldn’t say that. You could’ve watched it on YouTube.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
They took it down. But now, news sites still have it up. So you can’t get rid of this shit.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
So there is a guy and his buddy or something’s taking a video and he runs up and he boots a squirrel off the edge?
Casey:
Apparently…
Jeff:
Because the Grand Canyon isn’t… It’s not a cliff. It’s like a…
Casey:
Let me show you this.
Jeff:
I don’t want to watch the video.
Casey:
Do you see that? I’m not gonna show you the video but you see kind of the scene there?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It’s like an edge, right?
Jeff:
Okay. So there is kind of an edge.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
And this is not a flying squirrel. It’s just a squirrel.
Casey:
Well, it’s a flying squirrel after he kicked it.
Jeff:
Alright. So he booted it and then it flew away. Alright. Well… I mean… No one likes cruelty, right? Of course…
Casey:
Some people like cruelty.
Jeff:
Here’s what I’m trying to think about.
Casey:
The guy who kicked the squirrel likes cruelty.
Jeff:
So here’s the thing I’m trying to justify in my head…
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
Because obviously, like, I shouldn’t be hesitating. Like, of course, that’s fucking evil, right?
Casey:
Right. Okay.
Jeff:
What… You have to have something a little wrong with you to murder something that blatantly.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Whether… I mean…
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
But, that said, I mean, I eat a shit ton of beef now…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And like, there’s this weird tension I think about in the sense that I’m responsible for a lot of animal deaths…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
As I used to be a vegetarian and now I’m not.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And, like, I am definitely making things die.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And not even… I can’t even do the thing that… I’m trying to be at least honest with myself of, like, I remember the reasons why I stopped eating meat and it was because these places that make meat are fucking psychotic…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And they are killed very cruelly, probably way worse than being kicked off of the thing… A lot of these animals are, like, killed in very…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
Very bad, slow ways…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Where way more pain that you really want an animal to go through that you’re about to eat.
Casey:
Okay. I see.
Jeff:
So it’s hard for me… I mean, yes. The guy’s a fucking lunatic and, like, yeah, I don’t like it. I also think that that’s, like, one of those internet things where you’re like, “So what? Fucking… I ate 3 steaks last week. So yeah, an animal suffered to be killed so that I could be fed…”
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
And like… So we live in a very cruel society already.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
That seems like much ado about nothing…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Other than the blatant… Like, there’s a pre-crime portion of that where I think people are like, “He’s so fucked up for doing that. What else is he doing?”
Casey:
Right. Yeah.
Jeff:
But like, that doesn’t… I mean, you can’t really…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
That doesn’t justify people getting to bent out of shape over it.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I mean, yes, it’s fucking evil.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
But obviously, we do lots of evil stuff, every single one of us…
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
Whether we really want to admit to it or not.
Casey:
Okay. I see. So I guess… Yeah, I have a totally different take on it than you do…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Not surprisingly… But to be fair, I wrote a whole book about this.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
“The Technician” is…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s a book that is only about this subject. And my feeling on this is that in general, I would say that people take a very myopic view to these sorts of things. And they don’t consider, systemically, really what we’re talking about here, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
In my mind, there is no such thing… In your position, when you’re born a human, there is no such thing as being kind to the world’s species, right. It’s you drawing an arbitrary distinction because you will consume other living things to exist. Period.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You can be the most strictest vegan in the world…
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s true.
Casey:
And you’re just murdering plants left and right, right? But what you choose to do when you are, say, a vegan, is you are saying, “I am going to draw my sphere of empathy around all the animal branch of the DNA evolution,” right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But I’m not gonna draw it so far as to say that it includes autotrophs because if I did, I’d just have to die. I’d just have to die because I can’t sustain myself, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And so, my opinion about that… I think that’s dumb. I mean, I’ll be honest with you. I think vegetarians and vegans don’t make sense to me. Like, they just don’t make any sense. Like, if you’re eating that way because you have allergies and can’t, then whatever. But like, if you actually think…
Jeff:
If it was arbitrary…
Casey:
If you think there’s a moral high ground there, you’re just wrong.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Like, there is no… It’s indefensible because why are plants not living things to you? I don’t understand how you’re making this judgment…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You’re just looking at things… It’s like a kind of racism. You’re looking at things that behave and act like you do and saying they’re more important than things that behave less like me. And that’s just fucking arbitrary.
Jeff:
I think… Yeah.
Casey:
Like, that’s just how that goes, right?
Jeff:
Yes. I think a little bit of it is the ability to feel pain definitely factors into it.
Casey:
Yes. That’s what I mean. You’re looking at it and going, “These… I can define these things,” right?
Jeff:
Because I will say that even right now of, like… Hey, if I’m going to eat Cow A, Cow B…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
One cow is killed very slowly and painfully.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
I would choose Cow B…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
If it’s just, like… His head’s lopped off immediately…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And killed. And it’s like, that’s arbitrary…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
But it is something that factors… That 15 minutes of suffering factors in to choice.
Casey:
Because it’s like you, right?
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
You don’t have a definition for plants suffering because you’re not a plant.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You don’t “know” what it “feels like to have your sap run out” because you think of feelings as nerve conduction.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That’s an arbitrary physical process. It doesn’t… There’s no… Jesus didn’t come down and fucking build your nervous system special, right.
Jeff:
No. I understand.
Casey:
So all that shit’s bullshit. But at the same time, I don’t really dismiss that sort of stuff.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Because empathy is an important building block of societies.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Arbitrary empathy distinction is actually something we need to create functioning society because otherwise, you just fucking… I’d just kill you and eat you, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Like, we don’t want cannibalism. We don’t want… There’s a bunch of stuff we don’t want to have happen. So empathy is a very important thing. So I don’t want people to go around thinking like, “Oh, yeah. Gee. You’re right, Casey. Let me just kill everything and it’s good.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
’Cos that’s no good, either. So what I think is generally true is that societies do need to evolve and to have a societally-reached consensus about what is and is not part of that sphere, right. And it doesn’t matter where we draw it but does matter that we draw it, right? It’s like, this isn’t something that super matters if “do we include fish or don’t we include fish as a society”, “do we include cows or don’t we include cows”…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“Dogs or no dogs”, for example, is another one, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Things like this, where we draw that line is arbitrary but that we draw it is important. And once we have kind of agreed as a society, your ability as a human to follow that empathy line is actually important. I think we do all need to buy into an arbitrary distinction of how we exist as a bunch of species in a realm and go with it, right? That’s just a thing we need to do to prevent fucking chaos, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s sort of like anarchy. There’s a number of reasons that you could say that anarchy is better and it’s freer and whatever the fuck. It’s a disaster.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We know it’s a disaster, historically. So we come to a bunch of arbitrary decisions about how to organize ourselves as a bigger organism. And to me, that’s what… What we eat is because even vegetarianism and veganism, that happens to be bigger spheres than the currently culturally accepted sphere in, say, America. But we could regress that sphere further. We could say, “Oh, like eating dogs and cats.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We don’t do that, right? You could call me arbitrary for saying that I don’t eat cats because I like cats or whatever the fuck, right? You could draw those lines at any particular point.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So what I think is true about the squirrel thing is, like, “Well, one thing I can say about you is you are not willing to sort of collectively agree with us that there’s no fucking reason to kick a squirrel off the Grand Canyon…”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So it does… Like you were saying, the re-crime thing… I think it’s actually valid. It’s telling me something about you as a human, that the rest of us seem to have agreed, “Let’s draw our sphere here.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And you said, “I’m gonna be out here in some other place,” right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And to me that does concern me a little.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So I’m not willing to come down on some moral high ground and say, “You’re a bad person for kicking a squirrel off the thing.” For much to say…
Jeff:
But at least… You want to at least, like, “Alright, what the fuck were you thinking, you lunatic?”
Casey:
But [ the bit got set ], right. So [ the bit got set ]. I’m saying like, “Okay. You… It’s like…”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Okay. It’s exactly like being an anarchist. To me, now, you’re an anarchist. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that mode of thinking but I don’t fully… I don’t really understand how you think we’re, as a society, gonna function…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
If we all did this.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And that causes me some concern, right?
Jeff:
It is true that those… Like, you said… Like, PETA’s up in arms…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
’Cos they are… PETA up in arms is, like… Should just… That’s the start of most sentences.
Casey:
They don’t have arms down.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Arms aren’t down in PETA. Their arms are just up. They grew with their arms up…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s how they grow.
Jeff:
So if you’d said they’re upset at a farmer who’s using guns to kill all the squirrels on his property ‘cos they’re digging holes in his…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
I would be like, “Well, that’s what you do.”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
You’re on a fucking farm. And otherwise…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Your [inaudible 60:46]
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So having a reason for that killing, for him doing that…
Casey:
Yeah, it’s just…
Jeff:
Assuming it’s killed and not just, like… It’s not a massive animal.
Casey:
Exactly, right.
Jeff:
They don’t just, like, bounced and ran away, right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You have no idea.
Casey:
And this is exactly what I’m saying, right. It’s like it’s… I think you have to come to some appreciation that what we do and don’t treat fairly, what we do and don’t give rights, what we do and don’t protect are truly arbitrary decisions. Right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And it’s a lot of psychological fooling yourself to think that they’re not.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
But at the same time, it’s important that we do have some understanding of them.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I know that’s a lot to ask people to accept because they’ve been sort of, their whole life, thinking of it as right and wrong in a black and white sense.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And I’m asking you to come to a grayer ground there. But at the same time, I really do think that’s the only logical… Like, you can actually kind of hold it in your hand and go, “Yes, this makes sense.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
“It really does mean something in a practical sense and not an arbitrary sense.” And even under that guideline being very permissive, kicking a squirrel off the Grand Canyon is gonna be like, what the fuck, right? And it’s not like it’s some morally bad thing to do. It’s just, “What is going on here?” And much like you said, if a farmer’s shooting squirrels on their property, at least there we’re like, “Yeah, this is something society does. There’s… Rodent control is a thing we do.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s like, we’ve kind of come to an agreement that we can function this way as a society…
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
It’s fine. And I think that’s okay.
Jeff:
And clearly, I want that just because I want a pellet gun to shoot all the God damned crows that keep stealing my hotdog buns.
Casey:
They do steal your hotdog buns, it’s true.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So you’ve got some skin in the game, per se.
Jeff:
Yeah, exactly.
Casey:
Alright, last animal link.
Jeff:
Although I will say no one will let me buy a pellet gun. It’s pretty much been 100% “Jeff’s not allowed to buy a pellet gun”…
Casey:
Pellet gun is your own… Like, I don’t have any problem with you having a pellet gun at some level in the fairness to society standpoint because you will injure yourself with the pellet gun as much as you will injure other things. So there is no risk of that. The problem is I would rather you didn’t injure yourself…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
For your protection, you should not have a pellet gun.
Jeff:
I feel like that’s what I’m getting.
Casey:
So, moving on, last animal link were trying to get through here because it’s… We’re already a little long. Gonna try to wrap it up.
Jeff:
I hope this is the one… There’s one that…
Casey:
This one’s for you, Jeff.
Jeff:
Is this from Matt?
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
’Cos this is a good third one.
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
Well, Matt’s would be a good one to cover right now.
Casey:
Which one was that?
Jeff:
We should just keep going right into that.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
Matador goring.
Casey:
Okay. Alright.
Jeff:
’Cos that kind of more follows what we’re into right now.
Casey:
Okay. Matador goring. Hit me.
Jeff:
Yeah. Well, Matt’s question was what… It wasn’t…
Casey:
My childhood friend, Matt Cornell…
Jeff:
Right… Asked what we thought of…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Matador goring. And he said it a Good/No Good but it doesn’t really need to be that because I think it is more complicated than a Good/No Good…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Unlike a lot of things.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And he said he enjoyed… What was the exact phrase?
Casey:
Oh, right. He liked the fact… He was listening to the podcast where we were talking about… Well, I was actually just getting mad at you. We shouldn’t say “talking about”. That was nothing. I was getting mad at you for saying that you think that this whole trend of, like, ironic humor like, “Oh, McGruff the Crime Dog…”
Jeff:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was following up… Yeah.
Casey:
Gets arrested, right… Like, things like that.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You were saying, “I don’t want that kind of humor anymore. I’m above it. It’s too shallow for me, Casey.”
Jeff:
Yeah, it is.
Casey:
And I was like, “Oh, for fuck’s sake…”
Jeff:
It’s fattening…
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
It’s humor fattening.
Casey:
You’re like it’s sugar. It’s the peanut butter M&M's of comedy or whatever the fuck. And I'm like, “Fucking A.”
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
But anyway, Matt was asking a follow up question to that.
Jeff:
Yes. And his question was he enjoyed when people were in the act of doing something that is… Like, paraphrasing Matt…
Casey:
A reversal, he was talking about…
Jeff:
Yeah. If that guy had gone to boot the squirrel and missed…
Casey:
And he fell off the Grand Canyon…
Jeff:
And he fell off the Grand Canyon…
Casey:
Is that okay? Is that funny?
Jeff:
Yeah, he kind of liked that…
Casey:
Comeuppance…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Karma.
Jeff:
Right. And so Matt asked, “What do you think of [ matagor ]?” Not matadors but matagor gorings.
Casey:
Matador gorings.
Jeff:
Sorry, matador. What did I say?
Casey:
So, yes, in a bullfight…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You said matagor.
Jeff:
Oh, sorry, yes.
Casey:
Which is kind of a… Which is a funny… I like that, you know, goring, matagor…
Jeff:
Yeah. For all we know that’s a thing.
Casey:
Matagor?
Jeff:
Matagoring.
Casey:
So he was saying, “In a bullfight, when the person who is basically taunting the bull…”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
If he fucking gets gored, are you down with that? Because the bulls are treated very unfairly in those situations.
Jeff:
Right. And so, I don’t super know a lot about that in terms of… I always thought that, you know, they’re doing their little fancy dance in the clothes and they stab them in the heart or they cut their artery and they’re dead.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But when this came through, I looked it up. And apparently, they really draw it out. Like…
Casey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah…
Jeff:
The bull gets…
Casey:
It’s bad.
Jeff:
Like, the pictures there’s, like… He’s bleeding all over.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And so, bullfighting itself I feel like is one of those things, like… I feel like we don’t do, you know, pit bull fights and we don’t do cockfighting, really, in America anymore because we’ve become…
Casey:
Well, unless you’re Michael Vick.
Jeff:
Yeah. But we’ve become… It is distasteful to us as a society. So I would say that falls into that realm for me for matadors. But it’s hard to just project that on to an entire country, like, they have history there that’s important. And so, it’s hard for me to say the matador itself if making that decision…
Casey:
Right, right.
Jeff:
I feel like the goring itself… I’ll put it this way. If I was at a bullfight…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And somebody got gored, I would be grossed out…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
But I would probably feel like that is a great ending of a bullfight.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Like, that’s a good end.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
It’s like, “Good.” It’s like the under-bull.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
He’s the under-bull because he’s gonna get killed.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
He’s done for.
Casey:
Yeah, he’s gonna die either way but at least he got one.
Jeff:
So the fact that he got a little…
Casey:
Or is he? For all I know, there’s a rule. I don’t know anything about bullfighting. There could be a rule that, like, if you gore a matador, you get to go to a pasture and just hang out for the rest of your life…
Jeff:
Oh.
Casey:
Like, maybe there is a reward for the bull. I don’t know.
Jeff:
Yeah. I don’t know. That’s a good question.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Do the bulls get… If they win, do they get…
Casey:
I’ve never been to a bullfight. I know nothing about it.
Jeff:
Do they get retired and go to a…
Casey:
I have no idea.
Jeff:
A field and… Yeah.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I mean, that would be great but I don’t feel like the world usually works that way.
Casey:
So…
Jeff:
I feel like they just, like… I feel like… In my head… Let me tell you what’s happening in my head.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is I imagine the rodeo situation where people dressed as clowns come out…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And slay the bull…
Casey:
No, that’s a different thing.
Jeff:
Yeah. But I feel like that’s not…
Casey:
I don’t know what they do at bullfights. Maybe they do. I have no idea. What I will say about it to Matt’s question anyway is, in my mind, I would say that matador goring or bullfights in general, all that shit, I feel like you’re forcing me to look at a situation that’s already gone off the rails, right? It’s like… If you said, “Oh, yeah. So we’ve got this sport that we do here in America or whatever it is. It’s called, like Cripple Tripper. And like, what we do is we have a cripple who hops around in crutches and, like, a person who has no trouble getting around like a fast runner or whatever kind of runs around. And as the cripple tries to get near them, they just fucking trip them and let them fall on the ground.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And you’re like, “What do you think about the times when the cripple, like, gets the guy in the head with the crutch?” I’d be like, “We’re gonna have to back up a few steps here.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right? It’s like, “How did we get to this situation where we thought this was entertaining?”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And to me, that is similar, I guess, to the kicking the squirrel, like you said, where you said, “I don’t disagree with the fact that there’s nothing wrong with defining your society as a place where this happens.” Because, like I said, it’s all arbitrary.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We eat the cow. So I’m not gonna sit here and say that I’m morally above this thing. But at the same time, it’s like, the reason I eat the cow is ‘cos it’s delicious. And I’m having trouble getting there to the “this was really enjoyable to watch”.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So I am having trouble empathizing with the crowd.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Fuck the bull and the guy. I’m like, “Why… What should I be worried about with you people that you want to see this?”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Like, can you assure me that it’s only bulls that you want to see suffer in this way? ‘Cos if you can, maybe we’re fine because it’s like, “I don’t give a shit about bulls. They’re a fucking field animal. I don’t… They’re completely for our service. I don’t fucking care about them. They are bred from aurochs. They’re not even supposed to be here, like, whatever the fuck, right? They might as well be a robot for all I care, okay. And in the future, they probably will be. Robot bulls that are programmed versus a robot matador and it’s all entertaining, right?
Jeff:
The running of the robots.
Casey:
But if you’re there because you like to see…
Jeff:
Blood…
Casey:
Things suffer in general…
Jeff:
Yeah, I’m scared.
Casey:
Maybe I don’t love that. And so, it’s the same thing with the squirrel.
Jeff:
I actually… I don’t super feel like people want to see… And trying not to paint, like, people who go to these in a bad… There’s a lot of stuff that’s cultural there where, like, I go to the bullfights because I went there with my father and it was a… Like, there can be things around something that is cruel that you aren’t really there for the cruelty. But it makes me nervous when there’s a whole crowd getting excited. I do think that part of being a good matador, one of the things that I like about it…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is the ability to kill the animal quickly.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I have… I did read that when I was reading about this ‘cos I was like, “I remember matadors from…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“From middle school…”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
“But like, they don’t really intersect…” That fact that it still happens is a really bizarre…
Casey:
I don’t know much about it and I don’t really want to comment on anything specific. I’m just saying that my general feeling on it is, like, “Gosh, this seems kinda odd.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But you know, I’m a person…
Jeff:
’Cos that’s the same thing, like…
Casey:
I don’t like professional sports, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So my approach to all of these things is coming at it sideways. I’m coming at it probably from a very different perspective…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And so, I don’t… Yeah, I don’t really give a shit about the bull. It’s not about animal rights to me. But it is about, like, what are we actually promoting here? And is that something we want to promote in general? It’s definitely a question I would have.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So, I suspect I’m thumbs down on bullfighting but not probably for the reasons PETA is which is strictly like, “Oh, we love bulls,” or some shit.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So, yeah. And you know, here’s… I’ll go you one further which is that if we had some kind of data which said that letting people be cruel to bulls made them less likely to commit violent crime in real like, for it.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Right? It’s like, I am a society structuralist. I am human-centric. That is who I am. I don’t feel like there’s any real thing that you owe to other living species out there. ‘Cos like I said, I think it’s all arbitrary. We’re gonna have to eat them eventually…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That’s just how that works. You’re gonna eat at least plants. So yeah, it’s really hard to say but it’s a tough call, right.
Jeff:
Here’s a question. If you feel… If you’re a vegetarian…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And you don’t eat meat…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is it…
Casey:
Those are the same things.
Jeff:
Yeah. But wait a second. I’m making something…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I’m trying to make a distinction.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Let’s say… I’m trying to think of the right way to put this.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Someone is eating meat. They throw the meat in the trash. You are a vegetarian hobo. Can you eat that meat since it’s already been, like… The cruelty has happened. Like, I’m trying to… Do you see what I’m saying? Structure the thing of, like… ‘Cos it factors into my life all the time where I’m like, “God damn android drives me up a fucking wall…”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Can I buy a used iPhone…
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
And at least not give Apple money that way…
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
Because I don’t buy something from the store.
Casey:
No. And the reason for that is, and if I had to back-translate it to your hobo thing… The reason for that is the answer there is no because if you take that meat out of the trash, a meat-eater hobo can’t get that meat out of the trash, right?
Jeff:
Oh, fuck. Right.
Casey:
So they will go beg for meat from somebody else who will give them the meat and then go buy some more meat. So you’ll still increase the market for meat.
Jeff:
So the only way to buy an Apple thing is if an EBay auction closes without anybody buying it, then I could send an email?
Casey:
No, because that person will now have money that they will use to buy a new product if you were to buy that from them.
Jeff:
Oh, I’d have to know what they’re gonna use the money on.
Casey:
Literally, the only way to make your thing work would be if there was an iPhone that had fingerprint reader on it that no one could reverse that only responded to your finger. That is the only way you could ever get an iPhone and not increase the market for iPhones.
Jeff:
God damned android. I’m stuck with it. I’m stuck with it, Casey.
Casey:
Well, that’s not my fault.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Okay. Can we finally get to the last link now?
Jeff:
Yeah. Keep going.
Casey:
The last animal thing we have to cover…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
They’re on this mega-cast. This is getting into a real… This is a boat-cast…
Jeff:
But you know if we’re gonna do…
Casey:
Long distance boat-cast. Animals are a hot topic…
Jeff:
If we’re gonna do animals…
Casey:
They’re a hot topic.
Jeff:
We can’t not go into [ detailed animals ].
Casey:
The last one is a treat for you, Jeff.
Jeff:
Oh, boy.
Casey:
And Sean Barrett called us out on this so I’m gonna just fucking put my foot down here because I was pointing out that we are very honest on the Jeff & Casey Show. And that is true. We get our facts wrong a lot but we do not get our feelings wrong, Jeff.
Jeff:
No, that’s true.
Casey:
We are honest on this show.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We say what we mean to say. We don’t sugarcoat it.
Jeff:
Just to be clear, the reason why is otherwise, why do the show? Nobody listens.
Casey:
Why do the show? That’s a good point.
Jeff:
Like, we’re not…
Casey:
It’s true.
Jeff:
We’re not…
Casey:
We’re not getting money.
Jeff:
There’s no other reason to do it other than the therapeutic part.
Casey:
Yeah, it’s true.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
But what he did point out is there’s one disingenuous thing.
Jeff:
And…
Casey:
He pointed out there is one and he was right. There is one disingenuous thing which is sometimes, you pretend you don’t know the link I’m going to say even though we talked a little bit before about it and you do know.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You do play act a little bit.
Jeff:
Yeah. Well, I will say…
Casey:
Presentation-wise…
Jeff:
Sometimes it’s legitimately… Like right now, I don’t know what the last thing is. And maybe we talked about this…
Casey:
Right. And no, but what I’m saying is this one is legitimate, I think.
Jeff:
Oh, okay.
Casey:
Meaning, I really think… You and I have not talked about this at all…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
And I’ve been trying very hard, Sean, for you, to eliminate that from the podcast because we don’t do it intentionally.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I’ve never intentionally misrepresented something on this podcast.
Jeff:
Sometimes early… In the very first season…
Casey:
We would retake… Yeah, we’d retake.
Jeff:
When we were fi--… We felt like, “That’s a funny topic…”
Casey:
“Let’s do it again.”
Jeff:
“Let’s do it again.” But we don’t do that…
Casey:
We don’t do that anymore.
Jeff:
We’ve gone way lazier.
Casey:
We’re way lazier. You get raw… You don’t even get edited at all.
Jeff:
No, this is not… We don’t cut out…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Every time we’re racist, it stays in.
Casey:
This was a treat for you, Jeff, that I found. What do you know about Rocket cats?
Jeff:
Rocket cats?
Casey:
Rocket cats. Because this sounded like something that was so far up your…
Jeff:
It’s not that cat that just goes zoom…
Casey:
Oh, like the rainbow… The Nyan cat or whatever it is?
Jeff:
It’s not that?
Casey:
It’s not that.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
But I guess it is sort of related in a sense. What it is… And I’m bringing up the link here because… And I really feel like you’re gonna enjoy this. So basically, in the 1500’s, okay…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So we’re talking about sort, like, Dark Ages Europe, like… You know, like almost medieval times, if you will, right?
Jeff:
Okay. Pre-renaissance?
Casey:
We got… Pre-renaissance… Uh… Well, okay… So this… Now, you’re taxing my date memorization..
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Right, which is really bad. I remember orders of things sometimes in Western Civ but after my Western Civ in high school, I don’t remember dates at all…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So if you just give me a date like 1530’s, did the renaissance happen or not? I’d be like…
Jeff:
Don’t know.
Casey:
“I think it was maybe the 1600-1700’s…”
Jeff:
Yeah, I feel 1600’s is renaissance but I have no idea.
Casey:
I’m like, “Okay, Shakespeare’s in Victorian. That was 1400’s…”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I get back… It could be 1400’s. I don’t know.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So I don’t know.
Jeff:
What does this have to do with rockets?
Casey:
It could well be after the renaissance.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
I don’t know. That is something that would be trivial for any historian to tell us. We don’t have that kind of accuracy on the show and I apologize.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
But what I will say is they found a bunch of manuscripts on war techniques, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Castle-oriented war techniques, for example…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Sieges, these sorts of things…
Jeff:
Like catapults and shit?
Casey:
And what… Yeah, all that sort of stuff…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Like siege machines, how to defend, how to attack a castle, this sort of thing…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
They were going through a bunch of manuscripts…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And they noticed a trend. They noticed a trend, Jeff. And that trend was that they saw a bunch of cats and birds depicted with flaming backpacks on.
Jeff:
What? Okay.
Casey:
And this was not “we found A drawing of a cat with a rocket pack”. We found many drawings of, in multiple manuscripts by multiple people, of rocket cats.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
They call them rocket cats because they…
Casey:
That was kind of the nickname…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Now that we’re talking about it, right, in modern/present day.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
That’s not what they called it back then, I guess.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So I’m gonna give you a little sampling here. Can you see that? It’s an example of what it looks like in the drawings.
Jeff:
Well, that looks like a rocket.
Casey:
Doesn’t it?
Jeff:
Yeah, that doesn’t look like a… Okay, what’s it doing? Why is it shooting… Is it shooting… Is it propelling him?
Casey:
Now, I thought rocket cats would be a hot topic with you. I thought you’d be like, “This is awesome…”
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
“Cats with rockets flying around. It’s gonna be great.”
Jeff:
“Cat Wearing Jetpack in 16th Century Drawing Baffles Historians”.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
And so, what they believe to be the case is that these war techniques, at some point, someone had the bright idea of, “Alright, we need to lay siege to a castle.”
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
“There’s a lot of flammable straws and hay, granary sorts of things…”
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
“In this castle. What if we tied a flaming something…”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“To the back of a cat…”
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
“And we just fucking flung it over the wall of the castle…”
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
“Let it run around…”
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
“Lighting all the shit on fire…”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“Burning the people out of their castle…”
Jeff:
Oh, God damn it. Yeah.
Casey:
“To try and get them out of there.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
This (pun intended) caught on…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
If you will… It caught…
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
And people started thinking that this was a valuable, like a valid technique to be explored.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Flaming cats. And then sometimes birds. There’s also ones that have birds. I don’t know if I pulled one of those up here.
Jeff:
It’s not that I’m saying I’m skeptical that we would’ve done that because it’s like, in the Dark Ages…
Casey:
Everything goes.
Jeff:
They just… Everything goes, right. They’re like, “Oh, hey, you’re a rich guy. So when we captured you, we poured molten gold down your throat.”
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
They’re just like… It is not inconceivable. What the fuck? The bird has some jetpack, too…
Casey:
Can you see the bird, too? See.
Jeff:
Yeah. Alright.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
So my question really is — In 500 years, when our society is looked upon from the lens of not really know what was going on…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Is it gonna be like…
Casey:
Monkey on Segway. That’s what it’s gonna be. They’re like, “What the fuck?”
Jeff:
Like, laser cats from “Saturday Night Live”…
Casey:
Right, right…
Jeff:
They’re gonna be like, “No, they used to put weapons…”
Casey:
On the cat…
Jeff:
’Cos it’s just like, somebody thought this was funny and it’s a joke kind of thing or…
Casey:
Well, no. But if you look back now… Okay. So being completely legitimate, not monkeys on Segways, we do the same shit today. Like, why the fuck are there implanted cockroaches with, like, neural controls with a camera that we walk around to find survi--… Like…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They’re gonna be like, “What the fuck did you do with roaches?” Right? Like, that’s gonna be completely crazytown.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Right? They’re gonna find all kinds of DOD shit where they’re like, “What were you doing?? Like, what about the fucking dolphins, the Ukrainian-trained killer dolphins, right?
Jeff:
Oh, yeah.
Casey:
That’s a whole other situation, right, with the dolphins for attack purposes?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That whole thing… So yeah, they’re gonna find… It never ends, Jeff. History repeats itself and repeats itself and repeats itself and repeats itself and repeats itself.
Jeff:
All I would say about the rocket cats…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is cats are wicked hard to control…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Just normally…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And you lighting shit on fire and tying it to the cat? I feel like it’s as likely to light your own tents on fire…
Casey:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Jeff:
It’s like, it feels like… It’s like really unstable munitions.
Casey:
Yeah. I would also say that…
Jeff:
It’s just terrible.
Casey:
It’s like, you fire it in there and you think it’s gonna run around. But really, it just sits down and licks itself while its thing is like…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
“Oh, it’s kind of warm,” whatever…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, there’s probably not a lot going on there…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Not to mention how the cat… I guess… So the reason I guess they used cats is ‘cos they can survive long falls without any injury. So they can just… They’re just flying, right?
Jeff:
It’s also ‘cos they…
Casey:
Run around quickly, yeah…
Jeff:
I mean, I assume it’s burning them so they’re running like a maniac like, you know…
Casey:
They don’t light the cat on fire.
Jeff:
Well, that one right there is getting its ass burned all over.
Casey:
It might eventually catch on fire, yes.
Jeff:
Yes. I would assume it’s running from the… Like…
Casey:
Sort of by… I think…
Jeff:
When you put something on a cat, right…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Oh, you put a little ribbon on it and it goes fucking bananas…
Casey:
It freaks out, yes.
Jeff:
Like, you tie a ribbon on fire and then you let it go and you’re like…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
You’re gonna cause…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
A huge amount of trouble.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
This is one of those situations where the first time your castle got burned down by flaming cats…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
We’d be like, “Alright…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“We have a societal problem of, like, we have too many flammable shit in our fucking castle.”
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
“We’ve got to fix our flammable, like…”
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
“Put the hay somewhere…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“Put this somewhere…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“Lumber goes somewhere else…”
Casey:
Right. Well, no. it’s more like everything’s got a cat door now, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s like…
Jeff:
The other thing I think is, you know, there’s lots of… I find the study of those times…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Completely pointless and, like…
Casey:
You think that the anthropology is not…
Jeff:
When you read these things, you’re like, “Oh, no, dude. Their swords were so heavy. They must’ve been super strong to even wield them ‘cos they were like…”
Casey:
Right, right…
Jeff:
Who cares? It was a shitty time. I don’t fucking care how heavy their swords were and how big they…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, as soon as you started saying, “So in their castles…” I’m like…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Uh…
Casey:
You bring up a very interesting point which is that… Like, we called the genre of fiction about these sorts of time periods extrapolated, we call it Fantasy Fiction…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
There’s nothing fantasy about this.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
If you were back there…
Jeff:
This is real. It gets real.
Casey:
Okay. If we wanted to talk about it… If “Dungeons & Dragons” were actually, like… If we’re gonna talk about actual fantasy…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It would just be, like, “Roll this die to see how much shit you have to shovel.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, that’s what it would be, right? There’d be no… There’s no fighting dragons. You don’t… Knights were just sweating their ass off and getting run over by horses.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, that’s what actually was happening. There was no glorious anything. The fighting sucked.
Jeff:
Like, drop… Every single person that goes to a renaissance fair…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
In the fucking renaissance…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
They’re dead in a week, right? They’ve been stabbed, killed, dropped, burned, sliced, quartered… Like, it’s the shitty… Like, none of this is worth celebrating.
Casey:
It’s called the Dark Ages because it was not fantastic.
Jeff:
No…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It is the shit.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s like, all that… Where it was was cleavage. Like, that’s the…
Casey:
I don’t even think they had that.
Jeff:
Well, they had the pushing of… I mean, in the renaissance clothing…
Casey:
Yeah, maybe. I mean, I don’t know that…
Jeff:
I feel like that’s probably…
Casey:
Most peasants were probably not sporting the cleavage, that’s all I’m thinking.
Jeff:
That’s probably true.
Casey:
Maybe they were. I don’t know.
Jeff:
Anyway, yeah, it doesn’t… Yeah, I don’t like that.
Casey:
It’s a low quality time period in history, it’s true.
Jeff:
Yeah. Definitely the way they drew that, it actually looks like a rocket pack, though.
Casey:
Yeah, it does. I think it’s rocket cat and rocket bird.
Jeff:
Yeah. Alright. Big trouble.
Casey:
We are way over time.
Jeff:
Alright. Well…
Casey:
This is an hour and a half podcast.
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
It’s a 1.5x, if you will, bonus multiplier…
Jeff:
That’s right. Well, we gave them a short one last week…
Casey:
We did.
Jeff:
So this just rounds it out.
Casey:
It rounds it out.
Jeff:
You know what…
Casey:
Thank you very much for tuning in to the Jeff & Casey Show.
Jeff:
Thanks for the links…
Casey:
Thank you for the links…
Jeff:
Those were…
Casey:
For the listeners with the links… We would not have some of the high quality links this show was based on without you, our listeners…
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
Please send more to Podcast@JeffAndCaseyShow.com.
Jeff:
JeffAndCaseyShow.com…
Casey:
And we will talk about them maybe next week?
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
Thanks for tuning in.
Jeff:
Yep. Thanks, everybody.
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casey muratori
the jeff and casey show - season 4 - episode 30
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