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The Technician
No Imperfections Noted
The Jeff and Casey Show
Jeff and Casey Time
Casey Muratori
Seattle, WA
Seastalker
"Hi, I'm Jeff. I want a boat."
Original air date: September 1st, 2014
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Transcript
Jeff:
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Jeff & Casey Show.
Casey:
Hello, and welcome to the Jeff & Casey Show, the very, very first semi-aquatic Jeff & Casey Show.
Jeff:
This is true. I think this is probably maybe the first aquatic podcast.
Casey:
Do you think we’re breaking new ground?
Jeff:
We’re aquanauts.
Casey:
Do you think we’re breaking new water?
Jeff:
Yes. Well, we’re not technically on the water because, as Casey said, he would never get on the water.
Casey:
No, we are technically “on” the water.
Jeff:
We’re above the water.
Casey:
We’re maybe not “in” the water.
Jeff:
Right. We’re about 2 feet above. We are in the boat…
Casey:
Yes. There’s a boat going by right now.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I’m looking to the side here and there’s some people on a boat with a child that they’re endangering.
Jeff:
Yep. So, yeah, we’re on the boat but we’re lifted out of the water by 2 feet or so. So hopefully, this is recording.
Casey:
So basically, what happened is this. People who follow me on Twitter know Jeff did buy the boat.
Jeff:
I did get the boat.
Casey:
There was an episode earlier on in this season called “The Wreck of the SS Ting Tangler” where Jeff describes the fact that at his 1% house which has a dock, he is going to buy a 1% boat…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So that he can drive around… And he had all kinds of fantasies in his head. Like, if you go back and listen to that show now…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
If you go back and listen to it, you will hear him going through all kinds of these amazing imaginations about how he’s gonna get the boat, he’s gonna drive it here and there and it’s gonna be awesome. He’s gonna commute with the boat and the boat is perfect…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
He got the boat…
Jeff:
Yeah, I got the boat.
Casey:
Okay. And mind you, he did…
Jeff:
On Friday and it’s Sunday.
Casey:
He did not go shopping.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
For a boat…
Jeff:
I bought it on email, yeah.
Casey:
He bought it on email so he just, like, sent some emails around to some people who I guess make boats or sell boats or like a boat salesman…
Jeff:
Sailboats, yeah…
Casey:
And he’s like, “I need a boat.” I don’t know what he told… I don’t know… What did you tell them when you said, “I need a boat”?
Jeff:
I said I wanted a boat and…
Casey:
Did you literally say, “Hi, I’m Jeff. I want a boat.”
Jeff:
Yeah, you said I want a boat…
Casey:
“Here’s my crayon drawing from… I want a boat.”
Jeff:
No. I said I want a boat and I want… I didn’t want… I said I don’t want anything where you go under like…
Casey:
What does under mean?
Jeff:
Well, like, right upfront there, sometimes that’s enclosed and it’s got a bed and stuff in it.
Casey:
Okay. Why don’t you want that? Why didn’t you want that?
Jeff:
Because I’m never gonna stay on the boat.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
This boat’s not that big…
Casey:
No, it’s not.
Jeff:
So it oscillates. So, like, getting under when it’s oscillating would make you nauseous and…
Casey:
You get seasick, don’t you?
Jeff:
Almost everybody would when you don’t have a horizon to look at.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And so, if you went under there… Like, maybe you get your sea legs after a long time…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
But I didn’t want any part of that.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So I said, “I want the front to have places to sit.”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And that narrowed it down.
Casey:
So you’re just like, “I want a straight-up speedboat.” Like, this is not a sleeping boat…
Jeff:
Well, no. I just said I wanted that and then I said the weight of the thing that can lift the boat up that we’re out of the water now…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
That is suspending us in the air…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Can only lift 6,000 pounds. So that thing…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And then, he said, “Well, we have one boat in stock that is a 2014. 2015’s are about to go come out so they sell cheaply,” and so I said, “Sure. Let’s do it.”
Casey:
Okay. So this is basically like…
Jeff:
He said this was the first boat he’d sold on email which surprised me because I thought…
Casey:
Why does that surprise you? Most people are gonna want to at least go see the boat that they purchased…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And not just be like, “I don’t know, send me a fucking boat.”
Jeff:
It is bigger than… It’s not a big boat but it’s bigger than I thought.
Casey:
It is pretty big, I would say.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I mean, you’re right. It is not like a yacht or anything.
Jeff:
No, no.
Casey:
But it is sizeable. And the thing about this boat, because now, I saw you… I guess… Rewinding a little bit…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So, you were like, “Okay, I gotta get a license to drive this boat.”
Jeff:
Yeah, I gotta get a license.
Casey:
But of course, you don’t actually need a license, it turns out.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
All you need to do is pass a water safety course.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Now, I haven’t seen this course but it sounded like it scared you a little because I remember then on Friday, you were timid all of a sudden.
Jeff:
So, yeah… Well, Thursday night… I’m getting the boat Friday morning, 11.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Thursday night, I’m like, “Fuck, I’ve not taken the water safety course…”
Casey:
The test, right, right…
Jeff:
And then, we went out for Fabian’s birthday…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
So we got back at about 11.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And I figured like, “I’m very good at taking standardized tests like that…”
Casey:
Yes, you are.
Jeff:
So I’m like, “I’ll be fine.”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So I’ll go and I’ll just bang it out, whatever…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And it is true. After having… When you do the tests, you could have passed the test simply by good test-taking technique.
Casey:
’Cos the tests are kind of worded with a little bit of a wink and a nod where it’s like…
Jeff:
Yeah, most of the ones, the answer is fairly… You’d miss a lot but you only have to pass. You don’t have to get 100%.
Casey:
So you need to get, like, 60 or above?
Jeff:
Yeah, I don’t know…
Casey:
Or 70 above?
Jeff:
Or 70 above, something like that…
Casey:
What is the actual…
Jeff:
I don’t know.
Casey:
We don’t know?
Jeff:
That’s a good question.
Casey:
I guess that wasn’t one of the questions on the test.
Jeff:
That wasn’t one of the questions, how many questions do you…
Casey:
“How much percentage do you need to earn?”
Jeff:
If you burn a couple percent on that question, then you’re really fucked.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
That’s one of those questions where you’re like, “Well, you can’t answer it because if I get this question wrong, it’s 1 percentage I can get right or wrong.”
Casey:
What? No. That’s not…
Jeff:
It’s 75% overall, I guess, but if it changes the number of the remaining questions left that you have to get right…
Casey:
If you get this one right or wrong…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That had nothing to do with the question that I asked.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
This is not some kind of math paradox. It is just a question…
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
About how many percentage you need to pass the test which, by the way, you didn’t even know.
Jeff:
No, I didn’t know.
Casey:
Alright. So you took this test… You just crammed it and took that.
Jeff:
So, here’s the problem. I was just gonna take it cold. I was just like…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
“It’s fucking 11 PM…”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
They come in 11AM. I’m tired…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
’Cos I’ve been moving.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And so, I go in. And so, what they do is they don’t let you immediately take the test…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
The online course.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
You have to first go through the training.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Again, I can read fast. Fine. I’ll bang this out.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
They don’t let you advance… Each page has a timer.
Casey:
Oh, wow.
Jeff:
And the timer is dependent on how much text is on the page.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So at first, I will say that…
Casey:
I feel like there’s gotta be a JavaScript… Like, you’ve got to be able to go in and [ sort ] that shit.
Jeff:
I came close to be just looking at, like, what is it doing on the timer…
Casey:
Grease monkey that shit, yeah…
Jeff:
Because it was driving… Anyway, I ended up instead watching “It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia” and then just coming back and forth. So… And some “Trailer Park Boys”.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
So I’m doing that. I will say, doing the tests, they did what they were supposed to do was be like, “This isn’t just a goof around… This is serious.”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
They’re like, “You need to think about this not as… This is recreational…”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
“But you can’t think about it like that because this is fucking dangerous.”
Casey:
Right. This is what I was trying to tell you…
Jeff:
No, no. You did…
Casey:
During that whole podcast.
Jeff:
And it was actually worded well. So they’d say things like…
Casey:
So was mine. I worded mine well, as well.
Jeff:
No, no, because you just said, “Hey, it’s dangerous.”
Casey:
Right, which is true.
Jeff:
Which is true. There are other ways to psychologically manipulate people…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And the way they used works 100% on me…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Which is they talk about what this thing, propeller strikes…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Which is when the propeller hits a human being in the water.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And when it does hit a person…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
They almost always die.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Because the propellers are like a blender…
Casey:
They’re going very fast.
Jeff:
But they’re 6 inches…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And they just saw right through you…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And they hit an artery and you bleed out before you’re even out of the water.
Casey:
Yes, that’s correct.
Jeff:
And that is horrifying.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Now, the way the questions are worded… Or the way you’re reading about this is they’re like, “Here are the rules. You just count all the people on the boat. When everybody gets out swimming, you count again. You count, the driver.”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
“You pull the key out so that nobody bumps the boat…”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Like, all this stupid shit.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
But then they’re like… The way they’d phrase it is they’d be like, “For those people who are unlucky enough to have ever seen a propeller strike…”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
“They know that there’s nothing else that is that bad…”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Like, they insinuated the…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
They didn’t come out and say, like, it just cuts through muscle…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
They were just like, “If you’ve seen this, you’re not the same person.”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And that, in me, just changed like, “Fuck.”
Casey:
Wow. I’m impressed ‘cos something that can make you care about safety is a pretty big… That’s pretty impressive because most of the time, it’s very difficult to get you to care about safety.
Jeff:
Well, between that and then… And then, they had other stuff that was bad like… I mean, certainly… I’m not a big drinker. So that’s… There’s a huge chunk on alcohol stuff like driving…
Casey:
Right, because that’s probably happening a lot out there, actually.
Jeff:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact…
Casey:
When I look out at these people here, I bet at least a few of these boats I’m looking at right now are inebriated.
Jeff:
Well, if we look at this, this boat holds 14 people…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And there 50 cup holders in this freaking boat.
Casey:
Yeah, there are a lot of cup holders.
Jeff:
So it’s like…
Casey:
There are way more cup holders built into this than an automobile.
Jeff:
They know. . .
Casey:
Way more…
Jeff:
They know…
Casey:
Way more…
Jeff:
We’re out there drinking.
Casey:
They know that the only reason you went out there was to get loaded…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And swim around…
Jeff:
Which is weird because, like, I do… I drink and [ am fine ] whatever but, like, the oscillations when you’re on the water…
Casey:
You just puke that out?
Jeff:
Plus, I feel like you’d just be… It’s a multiplier.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Anyway, so that was… All that said… There were some things. There’s also some… You know, there’s a lot of stuff about looking… You know… There’s a lot of stuff about boats that I don’t have…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Like sailboats and jet skis.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
That, like, I didn’t know…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Might be good to know.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
But I didn’t… It was really trivial. Like, jet skis don’t turn if they don’t have any power. So…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Most people who die on jet skis are driving towards the dock, they get scared, they let off and then turn and then they run right into the dock at full power and kill themselves.
Casey:
Oh, okay. So, I guess I would not have necessarily know that. So what you’re saying is that a jet ski doesn’t have a rudder…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
It just has a vectorable engine?
Jeff:
Yes. It just has a jet that…
Casey:
Okay. So basically, if the jet doesn’t have any. . .
Jeff:
Is it running, you’re not steering, you just…
Casey:
Acceleration, then it’s not gonna do anything… Okay.
Jeff:
So people…
Casey:
Yeah, I wouldn’t have known that.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I mean, I guess, if you think about it, it makes good sense but I, you know, could easily have assumed that it had a rudder. I’ve never really seen one up close.
Jeff:
And that’s also the thing. When you’re panicky, you let the power off, right?
Casey:
Yes, it’s the natural reaction.
Jeff:
Okay, so… So then, anyway, 11 AM… So it has countdown. I’m doing that ‘til 3 fucking AM.
Casey:
Okay. Alright.
Jeff:
Finally get it…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And…
Casey:
Changed man.
Jeff:
Changed man.
Casey:
You go to bed a changed man.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
But you took the test and passed at that time or you had to take the test the next day?
Jeff:
No, I took… I was like, “I’m just gonna fucking power through.”
Casey:
Power through.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay. How many questions is this test?
Jeff:
Seventy-five.
Casey:
So it’s a pretty big guess as far as public safety tests are concerned. ‘Cos I feel like the driver’s test is, like, 20 or something…
Jeff:
Yeah, and so…
Casey:
Or at least in Washington state…
Jeff:
And a lot of questions that reiterate the important safety things over and over again.
Casey:
And is this… Are water ways like this federal or state? Who is administering this test?
Jeff:
This test is … So, the test has federal stuff in it that are just like, “everybody has this”.
Casey:
So there are federal laws about water ways that have to be…
Jeff:
And that there was 1 chapter…
Casey:
That’s Washington State specific…
Jeff:
That was all Washington…
Casey:
And that changes if you…
Jeff:
And remember, this was 5 hours-ish…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
The test took a long time.
Casey:
Wow. So you were up ‘til…
Jeff:
3 AM.
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
Stupid boat so then I got… Then I drive… So I’m doing this at RAD.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And I go home and I had some more stuff so I get to bed at, like, 4.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Guy’s showing up at 11.
Casey:
Yeah. Right.
Jeff:
Ginger’s shows up as the co-trainee…
Casey:
Right. Yes, right. ‘Cos I wouldn’t do that shit.
Jeff:
Yeah, it’s like, I need somebody else that knows how the boat works.
Casey:
Right, exactly.
Jeff:
And also, I didn’t want to hang around with a stranger that long because I get antsy…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
So I’m like, eh, I have another person to kind of…
Casey:
Right. Plus, you don’t know, it could be a boat abductor…
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s true.
Casey:
He could be, like, a serial killer who abducts people after he delivers their boat, right?
Jeff:
Yes. And they disappear because he just throws them out and they sink them.
Casey:
Right. He throws them in the ocean.
Jeff:
Sink them in the boat, yeah.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So he shows up. Ginger shows up at about 10. So it’s early and I’m tired.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And I’m worn out from moving. And then, the boat gets here. I’m like, “Okay, that’s a big fucking boat.”
Casey:
Right. Right.
Jeff:
I’m a little nervous about that.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And it’s super choppy.
Casey:
Yeah, in fact, looking out here, the water just is wavy. I guess ‘cos there’s lots of boats moving around, and there’s the wind and all other things.
Jeff:
Yeah, it’s the boats. That’s the thing ‘cos, like… So we go out and it’s choppy…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And he’s showing me all this stuff. And I’m a little… I’m frankly very overwhelmed.
Casey:
Right. Yeah.
Jeff:
I’m just like, “Okay, there’s a lot of shit to remember.”
Casey:
Ginger said, like, “Jeff is freaking out.” That’s what she said.
Jeff:
And he’s like… He’s just like, “Here, you cut the battery and to do this, you’ve got to this, and then set the trim if the thing starts oscillating…”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And I’m like, “Oh, God damn it.”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And also, we’re just driving around and it’s pretty early and…
Casey:
Meanwhile, by the way, Ginger’s like, “The boat is awesome.” She had none of this.
Jeff:
Oh, yeah. Ginger and Dawn love the boat.
Casey:
She was like, “Let’s do this.” She’s like, “I can drive the boat.”
Jeff:
Yeah. She’s comfortable with waves.
Casey:
She has to take her test, though. She hasn’t taken her test yet.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So she can’t drive the boat but she’s going to.
Jeff:
Well, you get a ticket. She can… I’m fine with her driving the boat. Dawn drove the boat this morning.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
With no training.
Casey:
Don’t say that.
Jeff:
What?
Casey:
Now, you just got her in trouble.
Jeff:
Well, anyway…
Casey:
She can get arrested in Washington State for driving a boat without taking the test.
Jeff:
That’s true. So…
Casey:
We’ll bleep that part out.
Jeff:
So then, we go out and [ he trains it ]. We come back in. We dock it. And it’s… Docking’s a little bit of a production…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Whatever… And he shows me… He lifts it up and we pull the engine out, the whole thing. I’m like, “Alright, you know what, I’m not gonna boat again today.”
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
“I’m gonna get some sleep…”
Casey:
The engine’s in there? Where’s the engine at?
Jeff:
Yeah, the engine’s under this thing.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
This whole thing can lift up.
Casey:
And there’s an engine in here? And then there’s…
Jeff:
It’ a car engine. It’s just a normal Volvo.
Casey:
There’s, like, an axle and then a propeller in the back?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Or is it 2 propellers.
Jeff:
One propeller in the back.
Casey:
One propeller? And how does it steer? Does it turn the engine or is there a rudder?
Jeff:
There is both a rudder and it will steer the thing.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I think.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Fair enough.
Jeff:
So, the next…
Casey:
So, short story long…
Jeff:
Yeah, so anyway, so then the next day, we go out. And so, I’m just like… It’s just like, hey, your first car… When you first start driving, there’s that thing of just, like, anxiety of, like, not driving but, like, going to drive.
Casey:
Right, right.
Jeff:
Just getting in the car is, like, “Alright, you’ve got to…”
Casey:
Shake it off…
Jeff:
So yesterday, we shook it off and then we came out.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And I had pulled engine up, the trim…
Casey:
So I was watching from the shore…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
’Cos I’m like, “I’m not getting in that thing.”
Jeff:
Yeah. You’re horrified.
Casey:
So I was watching you. And it took you, like, 5 minutes even to just…
Jeff:
To just back out.
Casey:
Yeah. You’re just like, it’s not working.
Jeff:
And I’m like, “God, this is… I’m giving it a lot of gas. I don’t want to do too much so I don’t bash out through the thing…”
Casey:
Right. Yeah, yeah.
Jeff:
And I’m like, “Uh… Weird…” And then, I pull forward to pick Dawn and Ginger up and it’s, like, barely and I’m like, “Alright, this is totally weird.” And then, we gas it and I pull out, about out to where that buoy is.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And I went, “Oh, the fucking trim was…” So the propeller was facing up.
Casey:
How is that controlled? There’s a… Is that a knob?
Jeff:
There’s a button here, yeah.
Casey:
Okay. And you can basically… Is it proportional control or it’s either up or down? Like, what is the…
Jeff:
It’s proportional for 2 reasons. One is…
Casey:
So you can tilt it as much as you want?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And you actually adjust the trim while you’re driving.
Casey:
Right. To avoid… To keep the boat from pitching upward?
Jeff:
Yeah, because the boat kind of flies above the water.
Casey:
Yeah, I saw it.
Jeff:
And then, you turn the trim down and then it brings the nose down. And if you bring the nose down too much, it’s like you hit the waves really hard.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Again, that’s… And he’s like, “You can tell.” And I’m like, “I can’t tell. I just try to keep it flat.”
Casey:
Well, the thing is I’m thinking about it now and I’ve watched you play video games that require 3-dimensional control schemes. And you shoot the ceiling.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
That’s all you ever do.
Jeff:
I’m a ceiling shooter.
Casey:
In fact, one of the… Like, the 3rd or 4th podcast, I don’t remember which one it was… Like, in fact, I think if you go online, and look back at season one…
Jeff:
It’s the Godfather one.
Casey:
There’s one that has a quote that says something like, “I’m the worst gangster,” or, “I’m the gangster that always shoots the ceiling.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That’s, like, the pull-out quote from it.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And that was you talking about how you can never control any of these games.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And I feel like, to some degree, this is a good indication that probably you shouldn’t be driving the boat.
Jeff:
Well, yeah…
Casey:
I feel like there’s enough feedback systems here that you just…
Jeff:
It feels…
Casey:
You don’t have it. Your brain doesn’t have it, Jeff. I’m sorry.
Jeff:
It feels fairly 2-dimensional when you… Anyway, I went out with Ginger and Dawn and it was fine. There was… But it was like… Now, there’s waves, big waves everywhere…
Casey:
Yeah, it is. I mean, these aren’t big waves. For the people who are listening at home. They’re not big waves…
Jeff:
Yeah, like 2 feet.
Casey:
But they’re waves that are enough that if you were kind of expecting a glassy sea, you’re not getting that.
Jeff:
Yeah. And so, going about… And I was going super slow. I’m not… I’m terrified.
Casey:
When you actually gunned it as you were pulling out of the dock, it looked like you went almost 90 degrees. It went crazy vertical. I was like, “Whoa!”
Jeff:
Well, think about why that is.
Casey:
Why what is?
Jeff:
The trim was pointed straight up.
Casey:
Oh, okay. So yeah, just… Yeah… Oh, so you did that… You didn’t realize it…
Jeff:
That’s when I realized something’s fucked, right?
Casey:
You almost flipped your fucking boat the first time.
Jeff:
Well, it… Yeah.
Casey:
Goddamn it.
Jeff:
Anyway, so then we rode around. And like, I’m going 15. And I’m going slow.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And… ‘Cos there’s just… There are waves and you… Every time you hit a wake, the whole boat… And it splashes in…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I’m like, “This is nerve--…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So it was fun but just a little nerve-wracking.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And then, when we pulled it, it went smoother than I thought for the first pull-away.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
We kind of pulled in. The one thing is I had the lift control in the boat so I kinda got in and used the lift to raise up and then kind of hold the boat…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Let it stop oscillating…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Then go down and then let it center. So that worked pretty good. So anyway, all this is getting to the point where today, I went out at, like, 9 AM in the morning…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And it was like, “There’s no boats.”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And you really don’t think about the fact that most of the waves in a closed…
Casey:
Started from something…
Jeff:
Body of water is going to start from a boat…
Casey:
It started from something, yeah…
Jeff:
Like, maybe some from wind…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But the big shit is, like, all the boats going. And so, it was like… I went very fast today and it felt safer than yesterday at 15 because it was just like you’re just driving.
Casey:
Well, and there’s not much to hit if [inaudible 17:32]
Jeff:
Yeah, so we drove around Mercer and all that. So it was nice.
Casey:
Now, is there anything out here that you have to avoid? Like, are there shallow rock areas that you will just beat yourself on?
Jeff:
No, the nice thing about Lake Washington is…
Casey:
It’s pretty easy to understand?
Jeff:
It’s deep. Yeah.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
It’s deep water. I mean, they have these little buoys out here that, like, you’re supposed to go slow. But even then, it’s 8 feet right at the end of the dock. So it’s deep water.
Casey:
Well, so anyway…
Jeff:
Long story short is this is an aquatic…
Casey:
Short story long…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Is I’m like, “I’m not getting on the boat.”
Jeff:
You’re not getting on the boat.
Casey:
But today, I was like, “Wait, I could get on the boat while it is in dry dock, basically.”
Jeff:
Right. Yeah, it’s dry dock.
Casey:
Or this is wet dock, I guess, technically because there…
Jeff:
No, dry. We’re out of the water.
Casey:
No, I…
Jeff:
There is a wet dock when you’re floating.
Casey:
I believe dry dock actually means it’s not touching the water, though and this is touching the water still.
Jeff:
We’re not…
Casey:
The bottom of the boat is touching the water.
Jeff:
Oh, really?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I didn’t know that. I thought we were completely off.
Casey:
I don’t think so. I mean, maybe but I don’t think so. I think you’re still getting lapped.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
There’s a little lapping like a cat at milk, if you will.
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s right.
Casey:
So basically, I am sitting in the boat now.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
The boat is thankfully suspended by the lift which means…
Jeff:
We’re not rocking.
Casey:
We’re not gonna get seasick because it’s not rocking back and forth. So that’s pretty nice.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
And Jeff is sitting across from me and we have plugged in to some kind of outlet that is attached to your dock.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
So there’s some kind of GFI shit going on here, like, how is this not…
Jeff:
Well…
Casey:
It’s like… It’s [inaudible 18:48] from the water…
Jeff:
Well, I look at this myself.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So there’s a solar panel on the lift…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
That is, like, is the thing that helps raise it up and down. Obviously, we’re in shade in Washington in most of the time…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So it looks like they supplemented it with a long-ass extension cord.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
That does not look…
Casey:
Particularly safe…
Jeff:
It looks maybe waterproof…
Casey:
Maybe.
Jeff:
But that’s about it. It dips in the water, if you notice.
Casey:
Oh, man.
Jeff:
The yellow.
Casey:
Alright. So we’re about to short out all our electric equipment. If this podcast gets cut short, you know what happened.
Jeff:
I saw a huge fish, though, yesterday.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
When we were parking the boat…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
A huge, like…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
I assume it was a salmon in these waters.
Casey:
I have no idea.
Jeff:
But, yeah. So… It might be…
Casey:
You’re gonna go fishing.
Jeff:
I fished a lot when I was little and I’ve never fished again. I think I would like to catch a fish. I would not like to clean it or do anything else.
Casey:
You’re saying that you can outsource that, though, right? That there’s people on the docks…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Who will clean it for you if you find them…
Jeff:
I think if you got a… Yeah, but then I have to… So here’s the other situation that’s upcoming.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Docking on a non-lift mean…
Casey:
You have to actually dock, yeah.
Jeff:
You have to put the little [ skoochers ] out…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
The fenders…
Casey:
Do you have those?
Jeff:
I have 3 [ skoochers ].
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And you have to go up to the dock…
Casey:
And nuzzle…
Jeff:
And then tie it off and…
Casey:
Yeah, you gotta nuzzle it in, yeah…
Jeff:
And I’m not that…
Casey:
Do you know how to tie a knot?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Do you know any nautical knots at all?
Jeff:
Well, I had to for the thing but I don’t remember any of it.
Casey:
Fuck.
Jeff:
I just paged in and right back out.
Casey:
Okay. Alright.
Jeff:
I know how to do the things on the little metal thingies…
Casey:
Alright, so, I don’t know what this…
Jeff:
So anyway… Oh, here’s the point of that is I could dock and get the fish. But more importantly, what’s gonna happen before the fish thing, because honestly, the fish thing means a license, a whole bunch of shit…
Casey:
You’re gonna need a license to fish off your own dock?
Jeff:
You think there’s an exception?
Casey:
I don’t know.
Jeff:
That’d be great.
Casey:
How the fuck should I know, dude? I don’t know nautical things.
Jeff:
But I was thinking about this is if we did the late night fishing…
Casey:
What?
Jeff:
Late night fishing.
Casey:
What does that mean?
Jeff:
It means then you don’t need a license ‘cos it’s late at night, no one’s gonna be out checking the action.
Casey:
But no one’s out checking the action now. What does that… What are you talking about?
Jeff:
Well, I think someone would check the action. They told me all… There’s a lot of talk in the safety manual about people checking your action where they’re like, you have to show them a bunch of stuff.
Casey:
Wait.
Jeff:
Like, I have a whole bunch of… I had to buy a whole bunch of life preservers…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Well, here’s something kind of awesome.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
You have to have a life preserver per person on the boat.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
No one wears life preservers.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Like, if we… Every boat… Like, there, right there. Not one of those 3 people have a life preserver on, right?
Casey:
Yeah, nobody seems to want to wear a life preserver.
Jeff:
No one wears life preservers.
Casey:
Why are they called life preservers anyway?
Jeff:
I assume they preserve life but when you go in…
Casey:
I mean, so here’s…
Jeff:
The point is, if you fall out of the boat, you’re gonna be disoriented because even at a slow speed is a pretty fast… It’s gonna hurt.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
It’s gonna knock the wind out of you probably.
Casey:
So the goal of a life preserver to keep you floating if you get knocked unconscious, is that the idea?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
’Cos normally, a human doesn’t have much trouble floating even for, like, an hour although at some point…
Jeff:
People panic…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And, yeah… Like, I don’t think I… I should try it. I mean, I was swimming out on the edge of the dock the other day and… I’m not a strong swimmer…
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
And so, the… Yeah, I’m sure you could. I just…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I think people panic and fuck themselves. I noticed when I’m swimming around that I get very… I’m not breathing enough.
Casey:
’Cos it seems… I feel like most of the problem, like, with a boat wreck is either you just got killed by incidental…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Like, “The boat hit me and killed me,” or whatever or you wrecked somewhere that no one’s going to find you. In which case, a life preserver just means you get to experience your demise much longer than you would have otherwise.
Jeff:
Oh. Yeah.
Casey:
It’s like, “Yeah, I got to float out in the middle of the ocean with nobody finding me for an additional 3 days.”
Jeff:
Yeah…
Casey:
“Thanks, life preserver. That was great.”
Jeff:
The ocean ones come with, like, GPS and stuff.
Casey:
Okay. That… See, that is good.
Jeff:
Yeah. So, here’s the…
Casey:
That seems like a worthwhile thing to me.
Jeff:
But the funny thing about these life preservers here…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Is since they… Everyone knows you’re not gonna wear them.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
But you have to have them.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
So they make life preservers…
Casey:
Right. Yes.
Jeff:
That are, like, wicked thin…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And like, stacked…
Casey:
Yeah, it’s like the European sponge…
Jeff:
Into the smallest space.
Casey:
It starts off paper thin and then expands with the water or something.
Jeff:
I think they’re just like, this would preserve no life. No life would be preserved.
Casey:
We should test it. Let’s test one of these life preservers…
Jeff:
Oh, that’s a good idea.
Casey:
As one of our Jeff & Casey Show Science Specials…
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
And we could see, “Can it support a person or do you just fucking go straight underwater?”
Jeff:
But now… So I got the boat. And now, the boat’s… I feel better about the boat today after the ride today.
Casey:
What does that mean? Oh, because it was glassy?
Jeff:
Because it was glassy. It’s like…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
“Oh, I’ll just go out when it’s not crazy…”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And the other thing is docking when there are big waves like this is a pain in the ass because the boats oscillating.
Casey:
Yeah, it’s much harder. Yeah.
Jeff:
But then this action I saw…
Casey:
Oh, God…
Jeff:
Right across the way the way from me…
Casey:
Alright. Yeah… Alright, let’s…
Jeff:
There’s 2 people with…
Casey:
We might as well get into this. Alright, so here’s the thing…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
As everyone knows who listened to the “Wreck of the SS [ Ting Tangler ]”, I think it’s fucking stupid for Jeff to get a boat.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Because Jeff has crashed his car into the side of the building before.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So as far as I’m concerned…
Jeff:
It wasn’t my fault.
Casey:
That should immediately disqualify you from ever exploring other means of transportation.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Like, if you already can’t manage a car which is the most straightforward thing… Like, why are you getting in a boat? Okay? Why are you even adding to the possible set of things you can wreck…
Jeff:
No, it’s good.
Casey:
When we know that you already wrecked the most basic one.
Jeff:
Because you just fall out and splash.
Casey:
No, see that’s… This is the thing. You always say that. And in fact, we’re gonna get into another time when you’re gonna say that because this is what we’re…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
This is what you told me before…
Jeff:
Yeah, about this.
Casey:
A couple days ago when we talked about it. So Jeff, when he moves here, okay, he notices that people at these docks, some of them have sea planes, right.
Jeff:
They don’t even have boats. They have planes.
Casey:
Well, they also have boats…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But they have boats and planes.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So basically, what they do is they just pull a little plane up to where they would dock their boat…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And they just tie that shit off. And then now, they’ve got a little plane that they can launch and fly God knows where. I don’t know where they’re going in these things. They’re little Cessna looking things with pontoons.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So they’re not particularly long flight-looking aircraft.
Jeff:
No, no. They’re close.
Casey:
But anyway…
Jeff:
And they’re cheap. I already looked online.
Casey:
Yeah, of course, they’re cheap. Oh, yeah.
Jeff:
They’re way cheaper than the boat.
Casey:
Planes are super cheap because they’re fucking crap. They’re just like, these little cardboard things you get in. [ I don’t know if you’ve ] ever been in a small plane.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
But, like, a lot of these small planes, they feel…
Jeff:
I wouldn’t get in a small plane.
Casey:
You know like those little things that you buy in the store that, like, you know, kids buy. They’re flat packed. You take it out. You stick the wing through, like, a punch out hole…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And you throw it.
Jeff:
Uh-huh. That never works.
Casey:
If you get in a small plane, it feels a lot like that.
Jeff:
Really?
Casey:
That is what… Like, you open the door and it’s like wafer thin because, I mean, the whole thing is meant to be light in the small planes because the engine doesn’t have any fucking thrust, right? It’s not a jet…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s a propeller. So it’s like… And it’s a weak-ass propeller.
Jeff:
Yes. They only go, like, 40 miles an hour. They don’t go fast.
Casey:
Oh, yeah. No. It’s worthless.
Jeff:
This isn’t like a jet.
Casey:
It’s slower than a goddamn boat is A, right?
Jeff:
But no choppy chop.
Casey:
Okay. So anyway… Oh, you don’t know there’s choppy chop.
Jeff:
Well, once you’re in the air…
Casey:
Dude, the wind…
Jeff:
Once you’re in the air no choppy chop.
Casey:
The wind can fucking slam a Cessna up and down several feet like it was nothing.
Jeff:
You’re ruining this for me.
Casey:
Have you ever felt… Have you ever felt turbulence in a commercial airplane?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Imagine what it feels like when the object isn’t several tons but is, instead, like, 500 pounds, okay?
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s true.
Casey:
Minus your weight.
Jeff:
I give up. Yeah. Alright.
Casey:
It will… Okay. So if you went through some of that turbulence, it will probably…
Jeff:
You’ve been in small planes.
Casey:
I have.
Jeff:
You’ve flown around before.
Casey:
Not that small, though. I’ve never actually flown in…
Jeff:
Didn’t you fly to Oregon down to the IF thing once?
Casey:
Yes. Back.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I flew back from Oregon in a Mooney.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Which is actually a significantly better plane than what you would probably be getting.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Like, a Mooney is, like…
Jeff:
Can land in water?
Casey:
A real… It’s a more… Bulky with a bigger propeller…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Than, like, a Cessna, I believe.
Jeff:
And it has pontoons?
Casey:
No, it’s a…
Jeff:
Well, it can’t be better than, like… One can go on water and one…
Casey:
I don’t mean better in the sense of Jeff’s imagination. I mean better in the sense of, like, it’s a sturdier… It could handle probably more sort of inclement air situations…
Jeff:
Oh, okay.
Casey:
I don’t know what you want to say, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But it was a 2-seater, pilot-wise, as well, whereas like, the jankiest fucking planes often have a…
Jeff:
Did you sit in the front?
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Did you get to steer at all?
Casey:
I don’t remember if I actually ever steered at all because I’m pretty serious about that sort of shit.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So I would not be steering unless there was a reason for me to be steering.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It is true that I had the control stick and Ron… This was with Ron Gilbert.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
For people who know him, he’s the guy who made “Secret Monkey Island”.
Jeff:
So if Ron had a heart attack, you take control.
Casey:
If something happened to Ron for some reason, he has a stroke…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I don’t know what… Not much is probably gonna happen to you up there but, you know, let’s say it did.
Jeff:
Well, he did “Monkey Island” so if, for example, he had a heart attack that couldn’t be solved without a monkey bone…
Casey:
If it was an adventure game puzzle?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Yeah, it’s an adventure game puzzle… Of course, if it was an adventure game, I wouldn’t be able to just steer the rudder. It will be some kind of ridiculous…
Jeff:
That’s true. Yeah.
Casey:
Although, maybe it would because you know how adventure games, when they start getting…
Jeff:
Well, you’d have to find the steering wheel in the back somewhere.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And it’s locked.
Casey:
No. It’d be a bunch of stuff that you put together to make a steering wheel. But no, what I was gonna say is, like, “Secret Monkey Island” was not guilty of this.
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s true.
Casey:
But once they got up to games like “Full Throttle”, they absolutely had, like, the world’s worst shitty games micro-programmed in Scum, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So if it was one of those, it would be like, a piloting mini-game. But of course, there’s no 3D in any of their engines, really. So it would be like… Well, I guess there was in “Grim Fandango” but not for the environment. So it would basically be like, you know, a 2D horizon that kind of moves up and down and then kind of tilts by swapping in a new image.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And you’d be like, pushing the stick back and forth through three sprite positions, you know?
Jeff:
I never really thought about that, that was running through Scum.
Casey:
It’d be fucking terrible.
Jeff:
But yeah, you’re right. I never thought about that.
Casey:
Yeah. So all the stuff back then… This was kind of a funny thing that happened in those days, if you think about it. So the lineage, right, it started with Infocom. And they had an interpreter, right…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That they wrote the thing in… It’s called Z-machine now if you look back. I don’t know if it was called that then. I think that may have been a retroactive thing.
Jeff:
Have you written anything in that before?
Casey:
Well, nobody writes anything in Z-machine.
Jeff:
No, no, but write in the…
Casey:
Write in [ Form ]?
Jeff:
[ Form ]…
Casey:
I’ve never written something real but I do… I have a program in [ Inform 6 ]. So there was the thing that they switched from [ Inform 6 to Inform 7 ] where it [inaudible 29:12]
Jeff:
Is it good language? Is it… ‘Cos you can do that mostly functional style so that it was impossible to make things that didn’t work, right…
Casey:
We’re getting off the rails really quickly here but… So what I can say is that…
Jeff:
When are we…
Casey:
That’s a good point.
Jeff:
We’re not on the ground. We can go any direction. There’s no lines, Casey.
Casey:
Okay. So basically, there’s… To give a little bit of perspective here. I’ll go through the whole thing. Since… Suddenly, our topic about… Our podcast about boats has become a podcast about “interactive fiction” programming languages…
Jeff:
Through airplanes.
Casey:
The funny thing about calling it “interactive fiction” is none of the fiction in any of these games is ever interactive.
Jeff:
That’s true.
Casey:
The fiction was always fixed.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And the puzzles were interactive.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
The object system was interactive.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
The fiction was completely un-interactive with the possible exception of dialogue trees although most of the time, the dialogue trees were also 100% fixed. It didn’t matter what you picked…
Jeff:
That’s amazing.
Casey:
You just got a result…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And then you could go back and pick a different one and you could get a different result. But there was never, like, consequences to having said these things.
Jeff:
Yeah, right.
Casey:
Limited circumstances, yes. But most of the time, no. So anyway, in these languages… So when Infocom started out, basically my understanding was that part of the reason for these having a virtual machine at that time was they were trying to insulate themselves from what they saw as a dramatically wide set of platforms they were trying to ship on, right?
Jeff:
Oh, right. CPM and…
Casey:
’Cos there’s just so many out there…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And they did legitimately run on a much wider platform base than pretty much anyone today really thinks about.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, they were running on fucking deck rainbows and [ vaxes ] and stuff. And then also, like, PC’s and Atari ST’s and C-64’s…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And everything… Like, throughout a wide span of time, they just shipped out all of this shit. So you might argue that it was a good idea. You might argue that it was just dumb because you should’ve done cross-platform programming where you just had a few output [inaudible 30:57] You compile the thing… And it did come back to bite them in the ass a few times, blablabla… But, point being what they ended up doing was they created a virtual machine that could do some limited set of things. And it involved some stuff that was particularly [inaudible 31:11] to what they were doing like compressing stings and stuff so they could fit stuff in there, right?
Jeff:
Yeah. But that’s boring. I’m more curious about the…
Casey:
So what they did is they would compile their adventures down into this language. But that was a moving target thing. So even though today we think of it as, like, Z-machine, that’s kind of an abstract concept…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Like, the Z-machine… There was no Z-machine. What there actually was was a set of revisions to the interpreter…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And the language tools and whatever the fuck that they were using that, like, progressively moved forwards… Nowadays, what people have done… And I don’t necessarily know why they did this but nowadays what people have done is they basically reverse engineered the Z-machine stuff over a time period.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So they go, “Okay,” you know, here’s a rough category of games they shipped that could all run on the same VM. Here’s the stuff that changed here. Here’s the stuff that changed here. And they’ve kind of made interpreters that can run a wide range of slightly different Z-machine formats, right?
Jeff:
Did they have ones that run on JavaScript and stuff so you can just run a Z-machine and download…
Casey:
You mean like a cross… Like a binary translator that goes like Z-machine to Java?
Jeff:
Yeah, if you could just, like, drop a thing on to a…
Casey:
There are, like, Z-machine interpreters that have been compiled in Java. But that’s not… Is that what you’re asking?
Jeff:
No, I mean that runs in the browser, yeah.
Casey:
So, there probably are ones that are like a JavaScript implementation of Z-machine.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But I don’t think there are any things that are binary translation of Z-machine to JavaScript…
Jeff:
Oh, yeah, yeah. I don’t care about that…
Casey:
But you could…
Jeff:
I just meant playing…
Casey:
You could do it. I just don’t know anyone who did it.
Jeff:
I just meant can you play the old games in a browser.
Casey:
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So anyway, blablabla… Basically, what happened is people then decided to make languages that would compile down to these that are… I don’t know because I wasn’t there, obviously…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But I believe they are vastly more powerful now than Infocom ever had when they were making their games. Meaning, [ Inform 6 ] has a fuck-ton more tools in it for writing these games than anything that Infocom actually used to actually make any games to the best of my knowledge.
Jeff:
And like, my sequel… Right.
Casey:
My sequel?
Jeff:
Well, I would assume they have database stuff in there now.
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
Oh, they haven’t thrown that in there? Okay.
Casey:
Well, there’s a very good reason for that, actually. And the reason for that is that most of the stuff that you do in, like a language like [ Inform 6 ] is pretty ill-fitted to databases. There’s a whole database dichotomy thing, right. Like, databases versus pointers…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Like, there’s this whole thing where, like, you know, there’s this constant tension of the old-school relational database way where it’s slow to [ crawl pointers… ]
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
If you can express them as joins and things like this…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Versus the seaway where it’s really fast to walk a chain of thirty-pointers, that’s like no big deal. Database hate that shit. They came up with all the shit stores procedures to walk it on the queries that, like… It’s just a mess. So that abstraction doesn’t work pretty well there. So what Inform is mostly based around is more like… You could think of it more like lispy sorts of triggery sorts of things, almost like [ small talk-y ]…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
In a way, which I say that not ever actually having programmed [inaudible 34:13] I read a book on [inaudible 34:13] which is not the same…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
As programming in [inaudible 34:16] but it’s got a lot of stuff like triggering messages… Like, lots of [inaudible 34:21] stuff.
Jeff:
Does it have built-in inventory control and all that?
Casey:
Yeah. And so, then what they do is they ship a standard library, right, which is basically like, “Here’s a bunch of things that you probably want to be able to do, rooms and objects and things in a standard way that is convenient…” And you can just tie in to all that. But you don’t actually have to.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So you can actually re-implement all that stuff yourself if you wanted to. But probably at that point, you’re not really making an interactive fiction title in the traditional sense because if you’re talking about the traditional sense where it’s like, “I pick up objects. I use them on shit. I walk to rooms or descriptions and the “AI’s” are just like, “There’s a person in this room.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That is a all kind of programmed for you in a convenient little layer. Now, Inform 7…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So that was 6. Inform 7, what they did is they tried to open it up… There’s a guy, Graham Nelson I think is his name…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Who did a lot of this Inform… like, making good tools to do these complex things. He, I guess, took it upon himself because I guess he’s always sort of taking it upon himself to try to move that forward a little bit and make it more accessible to writers instead of programmers.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
So Inform 7 is full banana cakes. It doesn’t… It doesn’t look like a programming language. It looks like English.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So you say shit like, “There is a dock and the dock has a boat on it and shit like this…” And you…
Jeff:
So it’s prologue-ish…
Casey:
You learn… It’s prologue-ish and it tries to use English-y grammar…
Jeff:
Oh, boy. And I don’t know how well that ended up work out. My guess is probably not that well but I’ve never really played with it because I wouldn’t ever care about that feature. But I don’t know if there were some people who actually were enabled by that because now, they could… Even though maybe it’s not so convenient. Maybe that breaks down some barriers to people who, like, are scared of [ Curly Braces ] and shit.
Casey:
I don’t think… Yeah…
Jeff:
And I don’t know. I just… I mean, have a… We can save that. That’s actually an interesting topic…
Casey:
And [ Sean Barrett’s ] really the person to ask…
Jeff:
About all of it, yeah.
Casey:
Because he’s more serious about… Well, not anymore but he was.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And he’s the one… He’s written [ interactive stories ]. He’s written good [ interactive stories ]. In fact, people who know Sean from the podcast loosely, if you’ve never played a game called “The Weapon” which is… It’s a pretty interesting [ interactive… ] It works a little bit differently than most interactive fiction titles. It’s pretty cool. You should check it out. And he actually has written stuff in those tools for real. And I’ve only ever looked at them. I’ve never actually tried to make a game or anything in them.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So anyway, that…
Jeff:
So anyway, they started adding graphics along the way.
Casey:
Okay. So that was a little bit… In the history of this stuff, it’s mostly…
Jeff:
By the way, the history of this stuff, you can read about this. Sean will certainly Tweet it because he sends me these links all the time…
Casey:
Right, right. Yes.
Jeff:
That guy who writes those incredibly detailed…
Casey:
There’s a guy who writes a great history… Yeah, yeah.
Jeff:
And like, it literally sucks me in for hours.
Casey:
Yeah, he’s great.
Jeff:
’Cos he’s amazingly detailed of like, “Here’s the history of Sierra online,” for example. Here’s this…
Casey:
If I remember, I will…
Jeff:
And the real cross of the people that go…
Casey:
If I remember, I’ll try to post a link maybe on the page or something…
Jeff:
Yeah. They’re fantastic.
Casey:
But there is a guy…
Jeff:
If you care about early things…
Casey:
Yeah, he’s like an early gaming historian…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, a history of gaming historian. And most…
Jeff:
And he takes it seriously as a historian. It’s not like…
Casey:
He takes it pretty seriously. It’s maybe not as serious as, like, you know, the Cambridge history of Japan or something, right? But like, as far as gaming journalism goes…
Jeff:
It’s amazing.
Casey:
It’s pretty hardcore. And he actually seems to try and get real references from stuff.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So it’s pretty impressive if you go on there. And he did a great 3 or 4-article series on Infocom. You should definitely read…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
If you’re interested in this stuff… But anyway…
Jeff:
Yeah, speaking of very low bits for a minute…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Just a quick segue. Did you change that to 16-bit?
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It’s fine. And it should be fine up to about an hour.
Jeff:
Alright. Okay.
Casey:
So we’ve got about 20 minutes left before this thing bottoms out.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So anyway, basically, what happened is… And I lived through this so I’m not saying this is the history… This is like my life, right…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because I am a child and my first experience with Infocom is before they existed.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So I actually played as, like, a fucking 3-year old or something.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I played, like, on my…
Jeff:
The first thing I ever played… I mean, the first thing I ever did on a computer was play Deadline.
Casey:
Yeah, but that’s way later.
Jeff:
No, no. I understand. It’s just like…
Casey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah…
Jeff:
That’s the first thing on a… I should say on a PC.
Casey:
On a PC, yeah.
Jeff:
Like…
Casey:
So I had… My dad worked for Digital Equipment Corporation.
Jeff:
Ah, I see.
Casey:
So we had like a VT…
Jeff:
You had a [inaudible 38:40]
Casey:
A VT something.
Jeff:
Ah…
Casey:
And I don’t remember which kind it was. I don’t remember if it was like a VT-300 or something like this.
Jeff:
And you could use your dad’s log-in?
Casey:
But… Well, I mean, I’m fucking 3. I ain’t got to log-in to shit, right? But… So he would sort of, like, play “Adventure”…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Which was not Infocom. The old… I think it’s Scott Adams…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I think it was the Scott Adams’ “Adventure”… I don’t think it was Crowther & Woods…
Jeff:
Anyway…
Casey:
Scott Adams, that’s the wrong name.
Jeff:
I think that’s wrong.
Casey:
I can’t remember. Again, I was so tiny at this time. I can’t remember what it is. I don’t know if it was Crowther & Woods. It might have been. I don't think it was “Colossal Cave”. I’m not sure which one it was. I was really tiny at the time. So we played that on the VT-100 or whatever the fuck it was, the 300… I don’t know what we had. But then, when I was a little older, we played “Dungeon” or whatever the fuck it was called at the time. I think it’s called…
Jeff:
That was pre-…
Casey:
Was it just “Dungeon”?
Jeff:
I didn’t play that one because that one… I only had Atari 800’s at this point…
Casey:
Okay. Yeah, you can’t play it on that.
Jeff:
Yeah, play it on that… And I didn’t get into college until after those had kind of disappeared.
Casey:
So this will be interesting to go look at the history of stuff because, yeah, this is so old that, like, I can only remember the experience but I don’t remember what it was. But anyway, there was the original Zorks when they were all together, when all the Zorks were one thing. And they ran out of mainframe so it wasn’t a big deal, right? You logged in and you could play this game. I believe it was just called “Dungeon”. And it was Zork 1, 2, and 3 altogether…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Minus some bits but mostly it was all of them together. And my dad and his friends at work, they used to… Like, after they had solved it, they were going back and trying to optimize, like, how many moves they could solve it in. and so, there were these big printouts on the old printers that used to have the perforated edges with the… You know, the ones that were fed on a roller. And he used to bring them home and he would, like, look through them and go, like, “Oh,” you know…
Jeff:
They were speed running.
Casey:
They were transcript… They were speed running “Dungeon”, yeah, old text adventures. And they would look through and they’d go like… ‘Cos basically, you could turn on this thing called “Transcript Mode”…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
On these old games. And I think they even… If you use a Z-machine interpreter today, you can turn on transcripts. And what it’ll do is it dumps out to the printer port everything you did. So you can see the moves.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And that was basically how you saved the speed run. [ Ain’t no Twitch TV ]…
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
In 1978 or 1980, whenever this was… So anyway, after that game, when they actually tried to commercialize that stuff and Infocom became a real thing and they tried to ship titles, you couldn’t ship “Dungeon” on personal computers. They didn’t have enough memory.
Jeff:
Oh, okay.
Casey:
So what they did is they split up (at least this is my understanding)… They split “Dungeon” up into 3 games — “Zork 1”, “Zork 2”, and “Zork 3”. And they added some stuff to sort of fill it out and make it 3 separate things.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But they couldn’t ship the whole thing as one. That was my understanding, anyway. So my first experiences with games were right along those lines. And I think I… Like I said, it was like, “Dungeon” wasn’t the first one I played because I played “Adventure”, the one where you kill the dragon with your bare hands… I played that one, right. And so, I think that might have been Crowther & Woods but it might have not been.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I don’t remember. I think it was called “Adventure” or could’ve been called “Advent”. I don’t know. Fucking who cares, doesn’t matter. Point being, as time goes by, Sierra Online comes to be…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And they ship “King’s Quest”. Now, they shipped some stuff before that. I can’t remember what it’s called but I think “King’s Quest” wasn’t actually their first title. And again, that historian guy does a history of them, too. So that’s the place to go for the official record, probably. But “King’s Quest” was the first one that I think went wide. And so, we had a PC 80 clone because Digital had started making those at the time at my dad’s office. There was one there.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And I saw “King’s Quest” on that. And this was a huge fucking deal. Like, you’d never seen anything where you move the character around like that. Like, I’d never seen anything like that on a computer or anything with adventure games, you know?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
There was a… The Atari 2600 had come out. And so, you could kind of play those shitty block things. But it was like… This was like a scene. And the interesting thing about it, too, was that… Nowadays people probably forget this but in those days, the way that the graphics was encoded was like… It was sort of like… You could think of it like postscript. So when you walked from one screen to another, you watched it fucking draw…
Jeff:
Right, right…
Casey:
Right? And do a bunch of procedural things like make this outline, flood fill, put 3 dots here…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And you watched the whole fucking thing draw. So going back in my head and imagining myself playing “King’s Quest” today…
Jeff:
It’s like…
Casey:
I would’ve thrown the fucking monitor over my dad’s cubicle…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And out the window…
Jeff:
It would’ve been like the boat test because you’re waiting for whole thing to draw and you’re like, “Goddamn it.”
Casey:
It’s ridiculous. And nowadays, I get mad when the Pdf reader is slow…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And this was like a fucking game you’re supposed to be enjoying.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So, I don’t know why. But anyway, point being this came out and that was like a big deal because that sort of started to push on Infocom’s territory. Now they weren’t the only game in town with these sort of adventure-y games.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And similarly, after Ron Gilbert, in fact, the person who’s plane I flew back in… After he saw I guess what Sierra had been doing, he was like, “We can do…”
Jeff:
’Cos they’re both up here?
Casey:
No. They were…
Jeff:
Oh, this wasn’t at the time?
Casey:
Well, Lucas Arts has never been up here.
Jeff:
Oh, okay. I thought you were… Oh, okay. Right. I’m thinking… Right. I’m thinking of…
Casey:
Ron Gilbert, after he left Lucas Arts, he started a company called Humungous Entertainment…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Doing those sort of adventure games for kids.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And that was up here. Now, why he moved up here, I guess I’ve never asked him.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But yeah, they moved up here for some reason. And he took some of the people from Lucas Arts with him. One of the main guys who did the 2D Scum stuff, he came up here, as well. And they did a kids’ company. But that is totally separate from this history.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
When Ron Gilbert at Lucas Arts saw this… This is my understanding of the history. When he saw “King’s Quest”, he was like, “We can do a better job at this,” right? And I think he was talking about the time about the coding.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But it turned out that Lucas Arts also did a much better job just in general. They made better… Like, I don’t think adventure games are well-designed today. If you look back at the design, it’s just bad. But at the time, Lucas Arts’ design sense was way better than Sierra’s. They made games that you couldn’t die, right. They made games that had clear clickable verbs and stuff. They figured out what was and not important in that system. And they did make an important step forward design-wise, right, there?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So they did make a better everything. And most of the Lucas Arts are the ones that are beloved today. Like, a lot of people don’t clamor for a “King’s Quest” remake but everyone wants a remake of “Secret of Monkey Island”.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
People always want… They’re always bugging him about that and so on. But anyway, ignoring all that shit, so what happened is every single one of these, perhaps because of how Infocom did it and they… I don’t know. I mean, I really just don’t. They all made VM’s.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I don’t know why that was the decision. It’s a very strange decision when you think back about it to go VM rather than just code-based, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because there’s a big difference between shipping a VM and just using [inaudible 45:41] If you’re gonna make a bunch of adventure games…
Jeff:
And also to be clear like…
Casey:
It makes sense to have a single code base…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But a VM is a different decision, right?
Jeff:
And to be clear, ‘cos this would be something somebody would say…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
At that time, my programming jobs were I would take games that they would write for, like, an Atari 800 that were very, very hardcore, optimized for the Atari 800…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And move them to the Apple or I’d move them to the… Like, moving them around…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
So there were already porting houses. There was very little… Like, porting one of these games compared to the nonsense we had to do for, like, way twitchier action games was… I mean, we had computers that had hardware sprites that you had to make the whole fucking thing… Like… So…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And to be clear, these were entire games I’d be doing in 6 months for, like, 10 grand…
Casey:
Well, this is…
Jeff:
So it’s not expensive.
Casey:
Well, here’s the thing…
Jeff:
To not go [ VM route ].
Casey:
I suspect that the VM route, like many things, it sounds good on paper…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But in practice, it’s actually not very good.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Because the thing that you care about with VM’s is binary compatibility. You know, the goal of a VM system is so that you can take the same binary and run it in 2 different places. But they never used that.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They always shipped a different physical skew. So you bought a Mac version of the game or a PC version of the game. It wasn’t like, “Hey, buy this set of binaries and run it on the VM…”
Jeff:
Anywhere…
Casey:
“That you already have installed from our previous game…”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So, they were… That’s the only thing a VM does. Otherwise, you just write it to your cross-platform layer…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And all the stuff that you worked out for VM-ing, you just find binary, too. And now, your game is faster for free, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So there’s nothing…
Jeff:
It’s weird…
Casey:
VM does nothing for you. So… I mean, it’s probably a bad technical decision but for whatever reason, that whole lineage from Infocom to Sierra to Lucas Arts…
Jeff:
All did VM…
Casey:
They all did VM’s. And other people who followed in their footsteps also did VM’s. Like, I think Magnetic Scrolls did VM’s. I’m pretty sure Level 9 did VM’s. I’m pretty sure everyone did VM’s and I have no idea why but they did. And maybe someone from…
Jeff:
So then…
Casey:
We should ask them…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
If it was a good idea at the time or if it’s still a good idea today. What do they think about it? I don’t know. I should ask Ron maybe some time…
Jeff:
It’s a hard cognitive distancing to [inaudible 47:58]
Casey:
“Tell me. Was that just ‘cos you guys didn’t know?”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Because if you think about it back then, cross-platform layer probably wasn’t even a term.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It could be they just never thought of it, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Until someone shows you… In fact, one of my first programming jobs, we did a cross-platform, that’s the reason I know how well that works…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But if you’ve never experienced that, you may just never think of it. It’s totally valid that VM was the first thing you thought of and it’s better than nothing, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So…
Jeff:
Anyway, so that’s why the airplane games and these games are so terrible.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And pulling back…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The whole point of this whole digression…
Casey:
We should actually finish that thought. So the reason they’re terrible is because usually, what they did is instead of going, “Oh, this game needs a fight sequence or whatever the fuck,” and we wanted that to be a n action sequence which…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
That’s a bad game design decision to begin with.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Mini-games, usually not a great design decision. But hey, you know, I’m not really a game designer so I ain’t gonna criticize too strongly. But instead of actually programming one of those, a good one, what they would do is they’d script it, right. So you’d script it in Scum or in Sierra’s thing or whatever the fuck. And of course, now, you’re talking about a time…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I mean, scripting today is janky. Websites today are fucking slow as fuck and don’t work at all, right? And they have…
Jeff:
It’s kind of [ heroic ].
Casey:
Way more horsepower… So back then, you’re talking about no… There’s no spare horsepower for scripting a fucking action game…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
In a VM that isn’t designed for it. That’s not happening.
Jeff:
And they’re just… When they’re tilting, they’re drawing a new graphic…
Casey:
Oh, goddamn…
Jeff:
Like, it’s not… There’s no 3D.
Casey:
There’s no 3D.
Jeff:
No drawing…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And they did add 3D later. Like, I’m pretty sure “Grim Fandango” had a 3D character. The backgrounds were still 2D. I don’t know if anyone ever did a fully-3D interpreted VM one but they probably did. I’m just not thinking of it.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, someone… There’s probably a 3D…
Jeff:
“Space Bar”?
Casey:
“Space Bar” was 2D.
Jeff:
Oh, it was?
Casey:
It was 3D rendered but it was 2D. Someone probably did a 3D Adventure title that still runs through an interpreter but it doesn’t matter. That’s irrelevant to the point.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
The point is simply that is why those things were so janky is ‘cos it was not a good time to be doing performance on a VM…
Jeff:
Yeah. Right.
Casey:
That was a bad idea. And…
Jeff:
But airplanes…
Casey:
There was no Just In Time Compiling. JITs were not a thing also here…
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
So we’re talking about actual interpreting virtual machines where they’re looking at byte code as it comes across.
Jeff:
So the point is, a real airplane is less janky than that, though… And so…
Casey:
So the point is, Jeff now thinks he’s gonna buy an airplane.
Jeff:
Well, I just think… Like…
Casey:
Let’s just start with that.
Jeff:
You just see them fly out every day, right, in the morning. It looks great.
Casey:
Why do you want that? Where are you gonna go?
Jeff:
I don’t know. The other side of the lake? I’ll pick you up and then fly you back.
Casey:
I’m not… If I’m not getting on a boat with you except right now, I’m not getting in a plane with you.
Jeff:
No, because it… And here’s the other thing. I wouldn’t get in a small plane, like I said.
Casey:
But it is a small plane.
Jeff:
But, no. That’s not a seaplane because if you crash, you just splash in and you’re just… You’re wet.
Casey:
What is this fixation you have… So in your mind…
Jeff:
The splash-in, yeah, the splash-in…
Casey:
Pretty much in your mind…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Water is kind of like a magical crash pad that anyone who falls into it is just safe. Like, if stuff goes into the water, it’s just safe. It’s like marshmallow fluffiness…
Jeff:
No, it would hurt but you probably wouldn’t die. You just… I mean, you might get wet.
Casey:
Now, you do know that many planes have crashed in the water and everyone’s died. That’s happened.
Jeff:
Sometimes it happens. But I’m just saying, if I land it good and I splash in…
Casey:
What if you can’t land it good?
Jeff:
Well, you know, sometimes that can happen but most of the time…
Casey:
So what’s your story?
Jeff:
Most of the time, I would just lay in here and then park at the dock.
Casey:
Most of the time. But what about the time when you crash the plane, like you said? What happens then?
Jeff:
Well, I won’t crash the plane. I’ll be really careful.
Casey:
Okay. So it’s carefulness is the problem.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
The reason that planes crash is ‘cos the people weren’t careful? That’s the thing?
Jeff:
Yeah, they’re just being silly.
Casey:
Now, you do know you have to get a pilot’s license to fly a plane?
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s kind of the problem. And I don’t think you can take that online.
Casey:
And you also know that there’s a high John Denver/John F. Kennedy situation that can happen there, right?
Jeff:
Yeah, but like, John Denver was totally weeded out. Like…
Casey:
You think he was wasted?
Jeff:
He was way wasted.
Casey:
You think he was baked?
Jeff:
No, I think he was drunk.
Casey:
Oh, he was drunk. So he wasn’t weeded out…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
He was on the sauce.
Jeff:
And what’s his name flew into a storm…
Casey:
John F. Kennedy, Jr.?
Jeff:
Yeah. I’d be like, today…
Casey:
But that’s the kind of shit you would do.
Jeff:
You just fly away.
Casey:
That’s the kind of shit you would do.
Jeff:
Right now, like, look at this.
Casey:
That’s not how it works.
Jeff:
You could just fly away. It’s so easy.
Casey:
No, you don’t fly away…
Jeff:
Right here. It’d be perfect. Look at this weather.
Casey:
Okay, so just so we’re clear on this…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
A storm is not, like, this… Like a UFO that flies around and you see it over there and you fly away from it.
Jeff:
You could fly away from it. Get away. Get away.
Casey:
That’s not how it works.
Jeff:
No, I’d land it.
Casey:
So here’s the thing. Maybe this will help scare you enough not to buy a plane in the way that the propeller strike scared you.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So planes, in them, have a device. And I do not remember the name for this device…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
But what this device is is it’s the best thing that people figured out so far for trying to detect polarity imbalances in the atmosphere.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Meaning, places where positive and negative charges build up against each other…
Jeff:
Yeah. I’m getting bored in this story already. This is not gonna scare me.
Casey:
Okay? You following me so far?
Jeff:
Yeah, I’m following you.
Casey:
So you may ask yourself why is this standard equipment in the dashboard of a plane. And the answer is because if you accidentally fly into an area that has this heavy electron imbalance in it, it just rips your plane in half. Just period.
Jeff:
Well, what…
Casey:
It just shreds your plane and you’re dead.
Jeff:
But…
Casey:
Like, immediately.
Jeff:
But I got a thing…
Casey:
No, it’s like, they don’t even…
Jeff:
No, I understand but you got a thing on the dashboard that tells you when that’s gonna happen. So you fly away.
Casey:
No, it sometimes tells you. It sometimes helps you detect if this is happening.
Jeff:
You just told me that this horrible thing is completely solved. That doesn’t scare me one bit.
Casey:
I’m not saying [inaudible 53:41] I said that sometimes this helps you detect them.
Jeff:
Here’s what I think. So if we get the plane…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And we put it under here with the boat, right?
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
We just park it over maybe on that or over there.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Then, we could have an airplane podcast, too. Like, we could do the podcast in there.
Casey:
Okay. Yes, we could but that… I mean, you’re still gonna fly this plane even if all… If it’s gonna be used…
Jeff:
No. So here’s the thing…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I’m pretty sure the plane’s not gonna happen just because I know you have to take pilot lessons and there’s no…
Casey:
A lot of them, actually.
Jeff:
There’s no getting out of that shit.
Casey:
No, there isn’t.
Jeff:
Even though it’s just a splash situation… I don’t know, maybe there’s the seaplane exemption?
Casey:
I don’t think there’s an exemption for seaplanes, no.
Jeff:
There should because it splashes…
Casey:
In fact, nowadays, it’s probably way harder, given the whole World Trade Center situation.
Jeff:
Oh.
Casey:
I imagine there’s probably stuff in the [ policy ] that’s like…
Jeff:
Background check?
Casey:
“Do you swear you’re not a terrorist,” or some shit, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I don’t know. I mean, I have no idea but I feel like you’re gonna go through a whole situation there.
Jeff:
I feel like if you flew a seaplane in the World Trade Center, you probably maybe killed a broker who was too close to the edge but that’s it.
Casey:
No… Yeah, it’s true.
Jeff:
It’s just like…
Casey:
I mean, but still, I feel like planes are a sensitive subject now…
Jeff:
You probably… You know like when a bird hits a glass and it just glances off of that…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I’d hit it and then be like, “Oh, shit. My bad…” Because it’s like…
Casey:
No, that would not happen. I feel like if you hit it with a seaplane, you would be dead. But you’re right. The building would just have some broken glass.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
But that’s probably not gonna.
Casey:
Yeah, jet fuel is really the problem with buildings but, yeah…
Jeff:
But you do see it every day. Maybe I’ll just find out who it is and see if he’ll give me a ride and see what the sitch is…
Casey:
They’re so fucking janky, too.
Jeff:
That would be an easier way. I’m sure they’re janky but…
Casey:
They’re so janky…
Jeff:
The splash situation…
Casey:
Ugh…
Jeff:
Alright, well, we should tie this up because I think we did get one phone call…
Casey:
Alright. We’re gonna wrap this up.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I hope that you’ve learned something today.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
And I hope that that thing is that Jeff should never drive a boat or a plane…
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
But if that was not what you learned, maybe we inspired you to go read about the history of adventure gaming…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
On a historical website which we will try to provide the link to…
Jeff:
It sounds actually… Just to be clear, that sound’s… Might be something that sounds boring… Even if you’re not into video games…
Casey:
It’s not boring.
Jeff:
It’s very well-written.
Casey:
It’s not boring, yeah.
Jeff:
There’s lots of human stories of, like, this guy went here and then he had a nervous breakdown and he pulled it together and like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
He’s a good writer as… They’re really, really good.
Casey:
There’s so much intrigue there, too, with the, like…
Jeff:
And it kills me that I can’t remember his name.
Casey:
Well, yeah…
Jeff:
I feel bad.
Casey:
We will try to put… When I post this, I’ll see if I can put the link to his site and all of his materials maybe on the podcast thing…
Jeff:
And then have a weekend because it’s a deep…
Casey:
Go in there and get lost in there. You’ll learn tons of fun stuff. And it’s great especially, too, if you’re someone like me who grew up with some of this stuff but you were really young at the time so, like, I didn’t know a lot of the back story. And then later on in life, you hear some of it but it’s not all in one place…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And you kind of get… This is a great… Just to kind of go relive it…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And there’s way more detail… Even people that I know like Steve [ Moretski ] and stuff like this, they show up…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And it’s great, you read about it and stuff…
Jeff:
Weird, like, how did they know them and… Yeah, it’s cool.
Casey:
I never knew what the point… A Mine Forever Voyaging, I never knew where that came from or anything…
Jeff:
That’s…
Casey:
And that was Steve’s second game there in that.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I really would say you should check it out because it’s…
Jeff:
We’ll put the link up.
Casey:
It’s a lot of fun.
Jeff:
If you have a link for us, though, you can email us.
Casey:
You can email us at Podcast@JeffAndCaseyShow.com and we will check it out and we will try to do it justice here on a boat…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Or in an office, depending on where we are at the time.
Jeff:
We’ll probably just do one here and then it’s to the new…
Casey:
[ Might be ] office.
Jeff:
Podcast studio [inaudible 57:04]
Casey:
We may have yet another podcast here.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
We’ll see. We’ll keep you posted…
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
Take care everyone.
Jeff:
Alright, thanks, everybody.
Casey:
We’ll see you next week.
Jeff:
See you next time.
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casey muratori
the jeff and casey show - season 4 - episode 28
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