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The Technician
No Imperfections Noted
The Jeff and Casey Show
Jeff and Casey Time
Casey Muratori
Seattle, WA
The Orgasm Button
"All it takes is a guy in a Ronald McDonald outfit to hump some kids on a shaky YouTube video, and you'll never see Ronald McDonald again."
Original air date: July 21st, 2014
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Transcript
Jeff:
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Jeff & Casey Show.
Casey:
Hello, and welcome to the Jeff & Casey Show. The finest hour of… The finest plus or minus… The finest podcast on the internet of indeterminate length.
Jeff:
We don’t want to put a time on this thing.
Casey:
Don’t constrain it. Don’t put us in a box.
Jeff:
Right. So hey, we were going down to get our pre-podcasting caffeine as we do…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
We were getting our coffee. Sometimes we do Thai iced tea but I find it to be a little…
Casey:
Yeah, you were complaining that it was mucilaginous.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You were like, “This is too mucilaginous for me…”
Jeff:
I don’t like that word but…
Casey:
“I don’t want to have this problem. I don’t want to have a slick throat, if you will.”
Jeff:
Yes. Now, I think this will be the last set of podcasts we will do here.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
The next ones, we’ll probably do one set at RAD.
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
And then one in the new podcast studios. We’ll call those the Aquatic Studios.
Casey:
Will it be or will it be at my office now?
Jeff:
I want to do it on the aquatic planes.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
The planes of the… I think we will set it up so that we sit outside…
Casey:
What?
Jeff:
And then we will be fully aquatic.
Casey:
The neighbors are just gonna hear raving lunacy.
Jeff:
Oh, yeah…
Casey:
That does not sound good at all.
Jeff:
They need to…
Casey:
How far away are your neighbors?
Jeff:
They’re pretty far. We’ve got trees all around us.
Casey:
You do?
Jeff:
We’ll be safe.
Casey:
I’m bumping the mic like a fiend here. I’ve got to be honest with you. I just…
Jeff:
Apologize to people… So anyway, we’re walking down to get our coffee. And then, in that way that, like, I’ve liked the place that I’ve lived in and I keep having these times where I’m like, “Oh, was this a bad call,” or whatever…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So the first time I had that thought, I actually told Dawn. I’m like, “Ah, maybe this is a mistake.”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
We go down and I hear them talking. They were like, “That was really crazy.” And I go, “Oh, what are you talking about?” And they’re like, “Well, there was a shootout.”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Not a “shooting”…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
A shootout where people were shooting. One of the people that got shot tried to get into the building and bled… He got shot in the foot and bled all over the revolving door…
Casey:
Yeah. Well, the revolving door, mind you, which is no longer operational because it’s too dangerous… [ They just shut down… ]
Jeff:
A year ago…
Casey:
The revolving door hasn’t been operational for months.
Jeff:
Right. A year ago, they blocked the revolving door.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So if you’re in a shootout in downtown Seattle…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Don’t go in my building.
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
You’re gonna get no relief.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Right? And you could shoot the glass out.
Casey:
Yeah, probably…
Jeff:
Probably. So anyway, so I keep having these reminders and we had a… You know, in the middle of the day at 2 PM like it is now, it’s totally fine.
Casey:
Well, you’re not gonna get shot, probably.
Jeff:
But it’s still crazy town.
Casey:
Yeah, it’s sketchy.
Jeff:
And so, like, we were walking back and I’m like, “That’s that guy’s bike?”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And like, it’s this kind of sketchy homeless dude. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
With a brand new Cannondale, perfect bike. And I’m like. . .
Casey:
It’s gorgeous.
Jeff:
And like. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But he’s wearing like a trench coat. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And a hat that doesn’t look like. . . And I’m like. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That’s. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That’s not your bike.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And I was kind of laughing. I thought. . . I’ve used that joke before and it’s always funny when you say, “I’m sure that’s his bike.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The dude right next to him is going through a backpack.
Casey:
Well, I said. . . After you said it, like, “And I’m sure those are his CD’s.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because there’s a dude going through a backpack filled with CD’s and other things in there.
Jeff:
And he’s like. . .
Casey:
He’s looking at them like he doesn’t know what they are.
Jeff:
Yeah. . . Just to be clear. . .
Casey:
And I’m like, “Those probably aren’t yours.”
Jeff:
He wasn’t organizing his backpack. He was looking to see what’s in this.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like he’s. . . And then you were like, “I’m sure he listens to Willie Nelson.”
Casey:
Right, right.
Jeff:
So it’s bananas out there.
Casey:
Yeah. So basically, this was definitely. . . I couldn’t think of. . . Willie Nelson, I suppose I should apologize to him in advance because I was basically trying to think of what does a modern urban criminal to inverse, and Willie. . . I was like, “Sure, Willie Nelson is not on the table.” But I don’t know why I just went to that. I don’t know why I went there.
Jeff:
I don’t. . . Yeah. . . I feel like Willie Nelson is not the inverse.
Casey:
What is the inverse? Celine Dion?
Jeff:
Yeah, something like that. I would say, yeah, something like that because Willie Nelson’s kind of like outlaw and. . .
Casey:
A little too hard, a little too outlaw. . .
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Yeah, alright.
Jeff:
And he weeds it up and, like. . .
Casey:
Alright. Okay.
Jeff:
And you know, there might be a kinship there.
Casey:
Okay. So you’re looking for someone totally straight-laced.
Jeff:
Straight-laced and appeals to, you know. . .
Casey:
Bieber? The Biebs?
Jeff:
Yeah. . .
Casey:
You think they listen to the Bieber?
Jeff:
No, I feel like they don’t but like, you can’t. . . If we were exaggerating the differences, you’re going [inaudible 4:28]
Casey:
Alright, okay, you’re going with Celine Dion. Alright.
Jeff:
So I had two things today that I want to talk to.
Casey:
Yeah. Normally, you don’t manhandle the podcast.
Jeff:
Yeah. And I said let’s just go.
Casey:
Today, you were like, “Let’s do this.”
Jeff:
Well, I was like, “Let’s just get started,” ‘cos we usually spend half an hour going over and this time we’re just going.
Casey:
No, we don’t.
Jeff:
Well, I mean, you read through the podcast topics list which is now so huge. . .
Casey:
Yeah. Well, it’s been a bit of a disaster. So one of the good things, I guess, about maybe the accessibility of the podcast now. . . ‘Cos we’ve improved a bunch of things. The website’s a little more usable than it used to be. And the feed work pretty well now. You can get everything in one feed and all that sort of stuff.
Jeff:
Okay, cool.
Casey:
Some of that has led to an increase in listener mail which is awesome.
Jeff:
Right. We love the mail.
Casey:
The problem is we don’t go through podcasts quick enough to actually get to a lot of the mail.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Most of which is actually pretty good. People tend to, for better or for worse, correctly identify the sorts of things we would talk about on the show. . .
Jeff:
Yes, they do.
Casey:
And so, one of the things is. . . It would be nice if we got. . .
Jeff:
They get in the mind.
Casey:
They get in the mindset. It would be nice if we got a lot of listener mail that was like, “Well, that’s a stupid topic,” or whatever the hell. But that doesn’t happen. We usually get stuff that’s like, “Yep, that’s something we would talk about on the show.” And so, I would say that let’s just issue, right here, an apology to everyone who sends in listener mail that we don’t get to for a long time because we would love to get to more of it but it’s really hard for us, unfortunately.
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
So we do the best we can. And we’re literally not gonna service you at all today because Jeff has some other plan in mind.
Jeff:
I have 2 topics that we’re just gonna blast.
Casey:
Go for it.
Jeff:
One is a thing I just read this morning that is awesome in that way that reality can be so much more implausible than fiction.
Casey:
Well, used to be.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It used to be that it was more implausible than fiction. But then Hollywood took that as a challenge and started shitting out things like “Pacific Rim” where you’re like. . . Because the one thing that’s interesting about reality is you actually. . . It’s almost never the case that there wasn’t a series of events. Like, reality is mostly about a series of events that you can follow. And those events may have been improbable. . .
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
But they did happen in a row.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And you’re like, “Oh, okay,” like, “This guy actually was here and then he walked [inaudible 6:37] He doesn’t just teleport,” right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Whereas in Hollywood, that’s not even on the table anymore, right? They’re just like, “I don’t fucking know. That dude. . .”
Jeff:
That’s true.
Casey:
“He used to be named Carl when he was here and now he’s Bob and he’s over there.” And Hollywood’s just fine with that.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Like, I don’t know. . . We took 2 scripts. We liked the first half of this with the back half of the other one so we just literally stuck them together.
Jeff:
But that’s not implausibility. That’s just unbelievability. . . There’s two axis there. . .
Casey:
Yeah, implausibility ascribes. . . It’s worse than that.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Its impossibility.
Jeff:
Yeah. Right.
Casey:
Like, reality is always possible. It just often is unlikely that things are happening. . .
Jeff:
Right, right. . .
Casey:
And you’re like, “Oh, that, I wouldn’t have expected.” Hollywood’s past that. They’re into things that just can’t happen.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They’ve gone. . . And I don’t mean can’t happen like there can’t be giant monsters because that part is a conceit of the movie. Like the movie is about giant monsters [ they’re gonna be there. ]
Jeff:
We’re giving that up.
Casey:
We went to impossible like the giant monster dies and then the same scene is played again with the giant monster alive again with no explanation for how that happened.
Jeff:
Right, right. . .
Casey:
That kind of impossibility.
Jeff:
And just small impossibilities of, like, “Wait, this guy just transported fifty blocks to get here to fight the monster,” like. . .. Anyway. . .
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
No, this first story was one that I thought was funny because I remember this.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That is. . . You may remember, Domino’s Pizza. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Once had a mascot. And it was called the Noid.
Casey:
Oh, I remember. Yeah.
Jeff:
Do you remember this thing? It was red. . .
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And he had. . . And he. . . There’s no explanation for like. . . ‘Cos he’s in a red suit. He’s animated. . .
Casey:
No, I feel like this was a mascot from a long time ago. . .
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Because I feel like I still watched television television. Like, this was at a time when television was on a TV, not on an internet device.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Like, nowadays, I don’t have any television television. Like if you say, “I’m gonna watch television,” what you mean is, “I’m going to watch a stream on something else.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right? But this was back. . . I feel like this was when I actually saw shows on a TV. . .
Jeff:
With commercials. . .
Casey:
When the Noid was there. . .
Jeff:
Right. And so, he was this. . . For younger people. . .
Casey:
Well, with commercials isn’t a differentiator.
Jeff:
That’s true.
Casey:
There’s more fucking commercials on the internet now than there ever were. . .
Jeff:
That’s true.
Casey:
YouTube’s got that under control.
Jeff:
Completely.
Casey:
So the commercials are back but I feel like I saw the Noid commercials on a real television broadcast. . .
Jeff:
Real TV.
Casey:
If you will. . .
Jeff:
Right. And that’s about right because it was early to late. . . It was the 80’s, basically. It was all in that timeframe.
Casey:
Okay. Yeah, so I was a little kid in front of the TV at that point.
Jeff:
He was this weird thing where he’s like. . . It comes from the word “annoyed”. . .
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And it was the idea that you ordered pizza and you didn’t get it in 30 minutes so you were annoyed.
Casey:
Fuck, yeah.
Jeff:
And the Noid was a mascot in some ways but he was really like an anti-mascot in that he conspired to make your pizza late.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
He tried to make them late and then usually failed.
Casey:
Right. Yeah. “Avoid the Noid” is the tagline.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I can’t quite remember but I’ve seen a lot of these commercials.
Jeff:
Yeah, “Avoid the Noid”, yeah.
Casey:
I mean, I was brainwashed by these as a child so I don’t really remember them but I know they’re in my subconscious at this point.
Jeff:
Right. And so, it was everywhere. And in that weird way, like for whatever reason, this mascot that was kind of an anti-mascot became super popular.
Casey:
Yes. Right.
Jeff:
There were plush toys or all this. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, it was just this thing and it totally worked for Domino’s as their thing.
Casey:
Yes. That was [inaudible 9:51] like the 7-Up Spot, remember these?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
They were like, all these things. . . And the M&M's of course are the current one that's like that where they're just like... This is a marketing thing and now, people are like, “I want to have the marketing plushie,” or whatever.
Jeff:
And it’s also weird in the sense that a lot of them. . . Like the M&M's thing, a lot of the commercials are about them eating each other or being eating and stuff...
Casey:
Yeah, it’s kind of fucked up.
Jeff:
So it is kind of fucked up.
Casey:
It’s kind of fucked up. Well, one of the things. . .
Jeff:
It’s the thing of like, “Oh, hey, make something cute without having a ramification that necessarily makes sense.”
Casey:
So this is the thing. . .
Jeff:
I mean, having things that like. . . Wait, that’s really creepy, right?
Casey:
I feel like at some level, advertisement. . . Either it has to be or maybe it’s just that it happens to be? I can’t tell which one it is at this point. But one of the things that happens if you look at our modern economy, right. . .
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And we’ve kind of mentioned certain aspects of this on the podcast before which is that basically, survival is solved in the US. Like, if your goal was to feed your population. . . Like, okay, so going back to World War II, let’s say. In the era of World War II, governments were looking around going like, “How do we feed our population?”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That was like an issue, right? Like, it was a big deal. I mean, one of the. . . You might even say that the reason we had World War II was because of that. If Germany had known where they were gonna get their food from to feed everyone, we wouldn’t have World War II.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
That’s just kind of one way of looking at it. Now I mean, you know, you can never really be certain about things like this. But food. . . We forget about food nowadays because it’s just everywhere. It’s like we’ve solved all these problems and we’re at this little bubble of abundance. In any place that has a functioning economy, food’s just a given. And you think of famines and people starving as these 3rd world problems. They’re out there. They’re in these places where they’re all fucked up and Africans in a hut or something. . .
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You’ve got this image in your head, right? But starvation was a thing for everyone at the early 20th century, right? And so, one of the things that’s true today is that has gone completely away for people in 1st world countries. They don’t think about starvation. It’s more about like, “Oh, we have a poverty problem.”
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
We know we have the food to feed these people. We’re just not gonna give it to them because it breeds laziness or something. . . There’s all these things we have, concepts we have in there.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But not among them is we can’t produce the food.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Like, the food is there. We’re just not gonna give it to them, right? So anyway, one of the things that’s true about a society, obviously, that you have the ability for everyone to survive in and you just don’t want them to do and you need other things to do is you start having a lot of purely synthetic things occurring, one of which is like what we do for a living, like things that actually don’t really have any direct effect on your survival but could only circuitously potentially affect it and we don’t even know if they do. You know, like an Xbox or something like this.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You have to start inventing these things to have a functioning economy because at the end of the day, even if you admit and accept that all these things are superfluous, you have to solve the problem of what do the 290 million people who aren’t farmers do all day?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They have to do something. Like, you have to integrate them into the fabric of your society somehow.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We could go and try to instantaneously snap our fingers and go do something where we all take turns tilling the fields. . .
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
One day a year or something, right? That could be the way we function. But we don’t.
Jeff:
Maybe wake up and it’s like, hey, today, you pull your job lottery.
Casey:
Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
Like, you’re the bikes thief. You’ve got to go down and get the Cannondale.
Casey:
You get the Cannondale.
Jeff:
I couldn’t get that good a bike.
Casey:
You couldn’t get that?
Jeff:
No. I don’t know where he got that. That was fantastic.
Casey:
But you see. . .
Jeff:
Also, how do you steal a brand new bike? Bikers are in great shape. I don’t know. It must’ve been like a misdirection. . .
Casey:
You just wait. You wait ‘til they go in and get their coffee. . .
Jeff:
Oh, right.
Casey:
That’s how you steal. . . I’m gonna be a much better bike thief than you.
Jeff:
Okay. Yeah, I see. You’re ready for your day.
Casey:
Basically, what you do is you go up on Capitol Hill and you go, “Look, over there! There’s something that’s not cool yet.” And they all flock over to it because they want to be associated that and you just take all their fucking bikes while they’re not looking. So anyway, going back to the main point here. . . So what I’m getting at in reference to the Noid is we tend to now have a bunch of things that are, like, economy breeder reactors. They’re, like, shit that is completely unnecessary that breeds more unnecessary shit, right?
Jeff:
Right. Yeah.
Casey:
So we basically have stuff that’ll be like, “Okay, we don’t need M&M's. There's no need for M&M's. M&M's will never solve any problem that society has ever had ever,” right? But we created them because we fucking need something to sell. So we created that. And then we had to convince you to buy them so we created ad campaigns which is a whole other thing.
Jeff:
And wait. . . And we’re so integrated and these things have been around for so long. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
People have become nostalgic for them.
Casey:
Exactly.
Jeff:
So now, you have good feelings associated with something. . .
Casey:
Right. Yep.
Jeff:
And then you’re like, “Well, we can monetize that. . .”
Casey:
Right. But then we’re like, “Okay, so the ad campaign invents these characters to be spokesmen for the thing and then those become a product. . .”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And eventually, you will get to a part (if you haven’t already, and I suspect we probably have) but eventually, you will get to things where you can’t even remember how many layers deep the ad even goes.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So like for example, someone will create an ad to try to convince you to buy the t-shirt with the M&M's plushies on it.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So it’s a t-shirt of a plushie of a mascot of a thing for a candy, right or whatever. . . And then that thing, that ad campaign for those guys will introduce a new thing that they’re using as the mascot for the mascot brand of things which will then have its own t-shirt.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You’ll just stack them up and stack them up and people are like [inaudible 15:52]
Jeff:
That’s actually what. . .
Casey:
It [inaudible 15:53] all the way down.
Jeff:
That’s actually what is exhilarating about David Foster Wallace’s books is those crazy. . .
Casey:
Oh, yeah?
Jeff:
He goes these crazy deep like. . .
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
“This thing begets this thing begets this thing. And socially, this happened and this happened,” and it’s really. . .
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And it doesn’t. . . Often, you kind of go, “Well, that wouldn’t. . .” But it’s still fun to imagine. . . He imagines the second and third order effects of things. . .
Casey:
I like that sort of thing. I do that myself a lot. I have never read one of his books, though. I should read “Infinite Jest” when I get a chance.
Jeff:
Oh. . .
Casey:
God rest his soul. . .
Jeff:
That’s right. . .
Casey:
We’re doing the little cross in the studio here today.
Jeff:
Yeah. It is hard to read that book knowing that because it is mostly a book about depression. So it is. . .
Casey:
Oh, really? That is kind of sad, then.
Jeff:
I mean, most of the characters are depressed and drug addicts so. . .
Casey:
Oh, yeah. . .
Jeff:
But it is one of. . . It’s a book. . . Funny, just complete. . . As we do. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It is exhilarating in lots of ways because it’s hard to imagine somebody making all of it line up. It’s. . .
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
It’s like Tarantino Tarantino’d Tarantino’d, like. . . Where you’re like, so many meta levels of stuff that all works. . .
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And it is super complicated. I have to read it again now that I’ve done it once so I can start putting it back together because it happens out of order. There’s all this stuff.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
But interestingly, as yet another detour. . .
Casey:
So what you’re saying basically is it’s like our podcast. It’s like, super intricate, multi-part. . .
Jeff:
But think of this. . . This is even weirder is I’m like, “Let me look up and just read a summary now that I’ve read the book to see. . . Like, line up the stuff and see if anyone’s linearized it. . .”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And I’m like, “Oh, people talking about this. . .” And one of the “Infinite Jest” pages that is most popular on the internet talking about it is by Dan Schmidt. . .
Casey:
No way!
Jeff:
Yeah. So I’m like, “Oh, this is weird. This closes the loop.”
Casey:
Dan Schmidt?
Jeff:
Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, pop pop pop pop. . .
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
The meta stuff that we create. . .
Casey:
Footnote for our listeners, Dan Schmidt was one of the original programmers at Looking Glass. . .
Jeff:
Looking Glass, yeah.
Casey:
He ended up going to Harmonix. He was the lead on Terranova, for example. And he. . .
Jeff:
Super smart. . .
Casey:
I think he was also the A.I. programmer on the Underworlds was where he was first [inaudible 18:14] but then, lead programmer [ turnover ] and then he did, like, a lot of the stuff, programming for the low level Rock Band and Guitar Hero. . .
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, the stuff that actually lines up the beat-matching and figures out like, “Oh, they hit it a little late but we’re gonna give it to him,” so [inaudible 18:27] Yeah.
Jeff:
He writes on his blog some. . . I don’t understand music but I like reading about smart people talking about things. . .
Casey:
He’s super. . . ‘Cos that was his thing, actually, yeah. . .
Jeff:
He’s analyzing like, “Oh, this particular song, The Beatles did this little thing and he went up here and down here. . .”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But everything’s off a half beat intentionally because. . . That’s really fun for me to read even though I don’t understand a lot of the technical details.
Casey:
Music was his main thing. Like, he actually does traditional composing, too.
Jeff:
Oh, okay.
Casey:
Like, in styles, he’s like, “This is my Balinese gamelan piece that I did,” or whatever the hell. So it’s like, yeah. . . Anyway, moving on. . . He has perfect pitch so that helps.
Jeff:
Oh, wow. Okay. So anyway, there’s this whole thing where this character is super popular. He’s in all these cartoons. They’re now making money on these second order meta effects.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And then the Noid disappeared. Like in ‘89 or something, they just stopped using it.
Casey:
So I will say that. . .
Jeff:
And I just thought it was like that normal thing that you just churn through advertising. . .
Casey:
Yeah. But you’re right, it did. And I don’t know that I noticed at the time. But it’s true that you’re just like, “Where’d the Noid go?”
Jeff:
So here is what happened to the Noid.
Casey:
There’s a reason?
Jeff:
Yes. And it is that thing of crazy implausibility.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So on January 30th of 1989. . .
Casey:
Wow, so I was. . . ‘76 so I was 13.
Jeff:
13.
Casey:
I was 13 years old.
Jeff:
A man wielding a .357 magnum revolver stormed into a Domino’s. Okay, so he gets in there. . .
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
You know, and. . . This is in Atlanta. And he took some hostages.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
For the next 5 hours, he was in a stand-off with the police.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
He’s fighting with them.
Casey:
Alright. Okay.
Jeff:
By the way, while he kept asking the two employees to make him pizzas. So he’s just eating pizza and doing all those.
Casey:
And he doesn’t crash out those, you know on PCP or something?
Jeff:
Who knows? He was negotiating this stuff. He was asking for money, a getaway car, a copy of a book about Freemasons. . .
Casey:
What?
Jeff:
All these weird stuff. . .
Casey:
Alright, so this guy is completely off his rockers.
Jeff:
In the middle of this, the 2 employees escape, right?
Casey:
Oh, so now he doesn’t have any hostages and no pizza.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Which means he’s probably losing his shit.
Jeff:
He’s having some trouble.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
So then, he fires some gun shots. . .
Casey:
At whom?
Jeff:
Into the ceiling. . .
Casey:
Okay, just [inaudible 20:47]
Jeff:
He’s apprehended and he’s like, charged with, you know. . .
Casey:
Everything, yeah. . .
Jeff:
Theft and aggravated assault, kidnapping, whatever. . .
Casey:
Endangerment and so on. . . Okay.
Jeff:
So, here’s the important part. The assailant, who was a 22-year old. His name was Keith Lamar Noid.
Casey:
What?
Jeff:
He was apparently. . . So old Ken Noid was upset about the chain’s mascot and had been for some time as you can imagine. . .
Casey:
Are you fucking kidding me?
Jeff:
So a police officer on the scene went on to say that the Noid had an ongoing feud in his mind with the owners of Domino’s Pizza about the Noid commercials. He thought the commercials specifically made fun of him. So. . .
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Right. So after. . . And you know, there were the joke headlines of like, “Domino’s Hostages Couldn’t Avoid the Noid”, right, like all this. . .
Casey:
Oh, my God. Alright.
Jeff:
So anyway, they find out. . . He’s found innocent because he’s clearly insane. He’s a paranoid schiz--
Casey:
Well, he’s found innocent or simply crazy?
Jeff:
Well, I don’t know. He was found. . . He was not guilty by reason of insanity.
Casey:
Right. Okay. Yes, okay.
Jeff:
And he’s a paranoid schizophrenic and he has a huge. . . And he’s in the Georgia Mental State Hospital, apparently.
Casey:
I bet that’s a great hospital.
Jeff:
Yeah, I bet so. And then, it was 5 or 6 years later, he ended up committing suicide and wrote stuff, apparently, about Domino’s still to that day. Like, he was. . . I mean, he blamed it all on the Noid.
Casey:
So basically, Domino’s like, “Alright, we’ve got to. . . This is the end of this.”
Jeff:
Domino’s is like, “We’re fucked. That’s it. Fuck.” And it’s just so random. . .
Casey:
So you know what. . .
Jeff:
Like, billions of Dollars were in play by this one random schizophrenic. . .
Casey:
Here’s the thing. . .
Jeff:
And I feel like in America, that’s one of the few places where, like, one man could do something like that. Like. . .
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And he can’t change the world course events by shooting somebody. . .
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
But you can change the course of human events by fucking up and. . .
Casey:
Being a psychotic with the same name. . .
Jeff:
And fucking with advertising.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, that’s something that you can’t, like, do.
Casey:
’Cos it’s systemic, right?
Jeff:
Yeah. It’s attacking it in a place that we have. . . Like, if there were weird protections for, like. . . And I could imagine this someday of, like, corporations needing protection for their trademarks. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That in the event that someone with the name. . .
Casey:
It’s insurance. . .
Jeff:
Like, McConaughey. . .
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Shoots up a McDonald’s, you are not allowed to use his real name. And he’s just referred to as John Doe or you’re sued under the Trademark Protection Act of 2019 or something. . .
Casey:
Yeah, yeah. Right.
Jeff:
I can see that happening.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But right now, we have a huge hole in our justice system.
Casey:
Well, I’m thinking it’s more of, like, insurance, right? Like you go to Mutual of Omaha or whoever the fuck. . . I mean, I don’t know who. . .
Jeff:
Yeah, like when pianists insure their fingers. . .
Casey:
It’s that.
Jeff:
You insure the Noid.
Casey:
And so the Noid goes down, it’s like, “Alright, we can’t use Noid anymore but that’s fine. It’s not an Act of God. This is a dude who fucked shit up. So it’s like the Noid is gone and we collect a billion Dollars in rebranding insurance which pays for our whole other 500 million Dollar ad campaign to launch our new mascot and whatever else, right?
Jeff:
And the only thing that struck me as funny about this is just how shaky. . . Like, all it takes is a guy in a Ronald McDonald outfit to, like, hump some kids on a shaky cam YouTube video and you’ll never see Ronald McDonald again. That’s the end of the clown. Like. . . And it’s such weird thing. . .
Casey:
But no, okay, I strongly disagree with that sentiment because if clowns doing inappropriate things to children was somehow all. . .
Jeff:
No, like Ronald McDonald, like. . . Like, he looks like Ronald McDonald, he’s doing something to kids. . .
Casey:
Jeff, I guaran-fucking-tee you that a Ronald McDonald-dressed individual has fucked a kid at some point in US history. No question. Like, that is. . .
Jeff:
Okay, yeah, maybe.
Casey:
There is no question in my mind that there was a paedophile dressed as Ronald McDonald who did some shit at some point. That is 100%. . .
Jeff:
But you need the YouTube combo or something that lets it be. . . I mean, obviously, I know. . .
Casey:
Touched by Ronald McDonald is a thing. That has happened. That is what I’m trying to say.
Jeff:
I know there’s. . . You know those costume books that come around around. . . I guess they don’t do it that much in Seattle but in New York, since Halloween is such a big deal, you get these little catalogues and they’re like, sexy nurse, sexy this, sexy this, sexy this. . .
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And one of them is sexy Ronald McDonald.
Casey:
That doesn’t make any sense.
Jeff:
Not with the name but like, “sexy burger clown”, right?
Casey:
Awesome, burger clown.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So Ronald McDonald is creepy as shit. No question. But here’s the thing I was going to mention about the Noid specifically as it relates to burger mascots which is I feel like this story clearly underscores the difference between Domino’s Pizza and Burger King. Because if this had happened to Burger King, their next ad campaign would just be all about the dude who shot at the Burger King. Like, they embrace that shit. They’d be like, “This will only help our brand to know that somebody held some people hostage whose last name was Noid.” They’d be like, “Great.”
Jeff:
This was ‘89 before advertising. . .
Casey:
Went that way.
Jeff:
We were like, “Oh, no, we just. . .” It’s just we spin the spin. And then we spin the spin with a counter-spin. . .
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
We don’t have. . .
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
They’re not too [inaudible 26:36]
Casey:
Our whole office is on a rotating platter.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, the whole thing is spinning always.
Jeff:
That’s true. They probably could just do it. And in fact, they did mention that in 2011, on the Noid’s 25th anniversary, he did briefly appear in a commercial.
Casey:
Okay. They’re bringing him back. They should bring him back.
Jeff:
I mean, that. . . It is weird that it was. . .
Casey:
What was that in? Where did you see that article?
Jeff:
It is in. . . Let me look here. Sorry, I’d closed it. It was in Priceonomics, some online place about advertising.
Casey:
So here’s what I’ll say about that. It is not entirely impossible or implausible that that article may have been some kind of astroturfing. . .
Jeff:
Oh, astroturfing. . .
Casey:
For a Noid comeback. . .
Jeff:
Noid return, yeah.
Casey:
Where they’re going to start acknowledging the problem and then layering on a, like, “the Noid needs to come out of retirement” thing for fucking Domino’s Pizza. . . Because that’s exactly. . .
Jeff:
Right. Where Mark Wahlberg and the Noid are in a commercial together. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And they, like, bring it back and yeah. . .
Casey:
Yeah. “Hey, pizza. Say hi to your mom for me.”
Jeff:
“Mother. Mother.”
Casey:
Oh, sorry.
Jeff:
So anyway. . . Yeah, I thought that was kind of weird but yeah. . .
Casey:
So I guess here’s what I’ll say about the Noid in general. I don’t remember those times very well. I don’t remember 1989, right. Like, that’s. . . I don’t even know what life was like for me when I was 13. I guess that I was still happy about computers because I had an Amiga. I was psyched. Like, I’d sit down and the world was filled with possibilities. It’s not saying [inaudible 28:15] like it is today, right. . .
Jeff:
It’s still happy. . .
Casey:
When I moved to the PC, that was when the world kind of really started to shrink, right, and it was this constant thing of Microsoft making my world suck harder and harder every year until eventually, the web came along and showed me really how much it sucked. Like, you didn’t know how good you had it when it was only Microsoft fucking you, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And I feel like there was a certain amount of like, “Oh, you thought your stepdad was bad? Here’s the foster parents,” right? It’s like the shit just went really bad for orphan Casey at that point in the world of computing. And so, I feel like I was probably pretty happy in those days about computing. And that was the way the world was. But I was in a small town, very small town, didn’t have a Domino’s Pizza. In fact, there was only one place that you could get a pizza at all. So. . . Well, you could go to. . . So there was another place, like, one town over.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
You could get pizza. But. . . So anyway, the thing that I’m curious about is I don’t really remember the avoid the Noid campaign well enough to know what was the value proposition they were even trying to establish because at that time, was there this whole thing about, like, “I’m not gonna call and order pizza because I’m afraid it’ll be 5 minutes late,” was that like a thing that they had to address? What were they trying to establish with these ads in the first place?
Jeff:
Well, so. . . They mentioned very briefly, and I don’t know the whole story, that they had already established that Domino’s was the 30 minutes or less pizza. That’s how they went from. . .
Casey:
So this is a cornerstone. . .
Jeff:
They went from zero to 500 million Dollars on that. That was the thing.
Casey:
Alright. So their value proposition was other people may take more than 30 minutes to get you your pizza.
Jeff:
Indeterminate amount of time, not 5 minutes more but like, “Hey, you might order. . .” I mean, it’s like that even happens when you’re not [ ordering at a chain ] in New York. You’ll order something and you might get it an hour and a half late or whatever.
Casey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically, it’s sort of about. . . It’s just strictly a [ time kind of thing ]. It’s like, “Look, America is getting fatter by the second. They don’t want to wait for their cheese pizza. . .”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“They need it in their face right now. And if they’re still hungry afterwards, they need to know they can call and get another one in 30 minutes to just keep stuffing them down.”
Jeff:
Well, and also, I think they correctly predicted the rise of, like, Avanti stuff. It’s like, everybody’s over to watch the game. . .
Casey:
Okay. “We need a pizza,” right. . .
Jeff:
If the pizza comes at the very end of the game, nobody’s there. . . Like, it’s important. . . Like, [ schedulability ] is a good thing. . .
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Even aside from fast food. It’s like, that’s good. That’s a good thing. That’s a good value to add.
Casey:
Do you think that there was another pizza company like Valve Pizza or whatever that originally had Mike Abrash working for them and he wrote a thing that was like, “Ever since I read ‘Snow Crash’, I dreamed about delivering pizzas in 30 minutes or less,” or whatever. And then, Domino’s got a Facebook buyout and, like, got him to come over and work for them where he then wrote the same blog post that was, like, “Ever since I read ‘Snow Crash’, I dreamed about 30 minutes or less pizza. . .”
Jeff:
Those 2 posts just killed me.
Casey:
Do you think so?
Jeff:
I’m like, just cut and paste, baby. . . No, set aside Mike’s particular but when you talk to people about VR. . .
Casey:
Right, right. . .
Jeff:
Here’s another completely. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And they talk about the metaverse and all that shit. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I’m like, “Did they read the same books I read?” Because everything about those books is about how bad that world sucks.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The entire point of the world is about how shitty it is and how disconnected and hateful and barren and sterile the world is. Like, that’s not a world you want.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And. . . Anyway, that’s the funny thing of everyone talking about, “Oh, no. It’s so awesome dude. It’s just like you’re gonna walk from space to space and you’re just in there and it’s like you’re there all the time.” Like, every one of the things you just said is shitty.
Casey:
So, I have no idea about. . . Like, I don’t really. . .
Jeff:
So I should say I enjoy the Valve demo room. Like, I can definitely see there are experiences there that are just magical and new.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But they’re very different than a video game. Video games don’t work in it at all. It’ll be something else.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
The video games that you imagine trying would not feel good at all to me. But. . .
Casey:
Well, yeah, it has the problem. . . I mean, certainly don’t mention on the internet that there are problems with VR because we saw what happens if you do that.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You get every lunatic. . .
Jeff:
And Charles. . .
Casey:
From fucking Reddit showing up telling you. . . Who, by the way, have probably, A, never developed a game and, B, never seen any of the demos. . .
Jeff:
Right. Not even seen Oculus 1.
Casey:
But it’s fine. It’s totally fine, right? Meanwhile, they’re telling this to people who have shipped multiple games before and who have seen the demos firsthand. . .
Jeff:
And in the room!
Casey:
And they’re like, “No, no. You don’t understand. You don’t understand how smart we are over here at Reddit.” Anyway, but no, what I was gonna say. . .
Jeff:
So let me just say there is something interesting there. Nothing about it, about teleporting or presence or all these crazy things is that interesting to me. I think there will be experiences there and I think that they will be cool. But it is. . . Like, the idea of it being this Utopian thing of, like, “Oh, you just transport around,” and all that feels really ridiculous. . .
Casey:
So, I don’t know. . . I’m really interested in seeing what happens with it because I don’t know yet whether it’s, like. . . So, here’s what I’ll say. Way back. . . And I think we talked about this a little bit on the podcast a while back but just not in relation to VR which is back when Nintendo first demonstrated the Wii and. . . Like, I played with the motion stick or whatever, prototype B and stuff like this. . . You know, me and a friend of mine. . . It was his dream, actually.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
We were sitting around going. . . And we were just like, “I don’t get. . . Like, this is just not interesting at all,” right? And it turned out that’s actually true.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, it looked for a minute like it wasn’t gonna be true because they got a lot of sales. But it turned out it totally was true. Like, nobody cares.
Jeff:
It was a dead end.
Casey:
Like, nobody cared about that. It didn’t lead to any interesting games. It was just like a throwaway fad technology. And maybe someday, we’ll see good technology come around from motion sensing that is actually cool or useful but that wasn’t it. And neither was Kinect. Like, that totally flamed out, as well. People just. . . It didn’t stick. It wasn’t like the first person shooter or something where it’s like, “Hey, someone invented the first person shooter,” like, I don’t know who you want to ascribe it to but, you know, [ Wolfenstein III ]. . .
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Or whoever the hell established it firmly or whatever. . . And all of a sudden, this is a thing that people spend thousands of hours a year in each individual for decades down the line. It’s like, it wasn’t that. It was like, “Yep, the Wii’s in the closet now. No one gives a shit.” That’s what VR feels like to me when I do the demo. I’m like, “Yeah, this is one of those things,” like, you’ll buy the headset. You’ll play some things with it. And then it’ll just go on the shelf and be done. So I have the same feeling about it that I have with Wii.
Jeff:
Yeah, I feel like that’s accurate.
Casey:
But, I don’t know because it’s hard to gauge those things. I don’t have a long track record of my own predictions on these things because there aren’t that many of them that come along. So it’s like, you know. . .
Jeff:
Yeah. It is. . .
Casey:
I happened to be right on the Wii but that may have been a die roll like, “Oh, yeah, you guessed right,” but you actually don’t have any good. . . You’re not actually a good Bellwether. You just got lucky.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And since there are so few of those in life, I don’t know whether I have a good sense or whether I’m just random.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So we’ll see on this one.
Jeff:
Well, I will say. . .
Casey:
It sure doesn’t feel that interesting to me.
Jeff:
It is a very different experience than anything else I’ve done before.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
There is nothing like it. I mean, I imagine it’s like the first people that saw a movie and they were like, “Holy shit. That’s crazy. There’s a train projected up on the screen and that’s the only thing that I’ve seen.” Like, it feels very different. . . Now that. . .
Casey:
So like. . . And just to be clear on where we’re at on this baseline. I didn’t even have that experience. That didn’t even happen to me when I got the demo. I’m just like, “Yep, this is exactly what I thought 3D would be like.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And then it was. . . You know. . . Which was fine. I was like, “It’s cool.” And I think they did a great job on the tech. I was like. . . I was surprised that they were able to get the tech to the point that they’d gotten to.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I was like, “You guys did a great job on this.” But it just doesn’t. . . It doesn’t get me in that way.
Jeff:
The sensations. . . Like, you actually feel like you’re. . . I felt like I was in a different place. And I felt things like when things approached me, I was scared that they’d hit me. That’s a real thing that I. . . In a game with bullets. . .
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
I’ve never felt scared, personally.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I might be worried my character had died.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
But I would not be worried it would injure me.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And I do feel like there are times when things are flying towards you in the Valve demos where, like. . .
Casey:
Okay, I see. . .
Jeff:
You’re actually. . . I would get. . . I felt flaky. . .
Casey:
That is actually very similar, then, to the early movies where people thought the train was going to hit them and they, like, freaked out apparently.
Jeff:
Yeah. Right.
Casey:
I’m assuming that wasn’t just a program stunt.
Jeff:
Right. I would say. . .
Casey:
Assuming that actually happened. . .
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I never know. . .
Jeff:
Right, right.
Casey:
You never know sometimes, like, how history rewrites those things. . .
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Whether it was just like, yeah, that’s the program guy’s story and it stuck.
Jeff:
But all that said, like, the difference between something like the Wii. . . Even in the Wii, in the sense that it was successful is like, everyone I know (even non-game players) tried the Wii because it’s this fun thing of, like, “Oh, you do it with your friends and you all look stupid.”
Casey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s a good gimmick.
Jeff:
VR isn’t. . . Like, when I talk to anybody who’s not into games and I explain VR. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
’Cos I mean. . . You know, RAD was working on it with Valve. . .
Casey:
Right, yes.
Jeff:
Before all this stuff, quite a bit.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And so, we know all this was being developed. And I’d say, like, “Oh, hey, we’re doing this thing. It’s with these goggles.” And they’re like, “What?” The idea that somebody. . . Like, people. . . When you sit down to play a game, you sit down to play the game in front of your computer or in your living room.
Casey:
Yes. Right.
Jeff:
And that’s not. . . It’s not an accident. That’s where you’re comfortable.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
So like, the idea of, like, this is a teleporting experience is cool but you don’t usually sit down to do something where you are being teleported. You’re comfortable with the fact that you’re sitting in your chair and you’re leaning back and you’re not being held up by a wire and a big set of goggles on your face. . .
Casey:
Right. Right. Yeah.
Jeff:
That, you know, are projecting light directly into your eyes. Like, it’s an intense thing when you’re wearing the goggles. Like, it’s. . . You know, you hold the phone up with [inaudible 39:06] up to your face and like, that. . . You feel that. . .
Casey:
Right. Yeah.
Jeff:
Like. . . It’s like standing outside in the sun.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
You feel it. And so, anyway, it seems so foreign that. . . And even people that had played with the Wii when I talked to the about it, they’re like, “Okay, that’s. . . Yeah, I might do that, like, in the same way I might play laser tag,” or like. . .
Casey:
Right. Yeah. Okay, well, yeah. . .
Jeff:
And that’s weird. Yeah, sure, I guess I’d kinda do it. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So I think it will appeal to people like us, like tech people. Like, I can imagine lots of fun up-close games. You know, I definitely feel like you can do games that would be neat up close and not things flying towards you. I just feel like that’s such a small thing that it’s. . .
Casey:
I don’t. . . Yeah, I don’t really. . . No, yeah. . .
Jeff:
It’s impossible to say. Yeah.
Casey:
I don’t really have a good feel for that part of it.
Jeff:
I mean, the difference between it being a. . . Whether it’s a platform or whether it’s a peripheral is a good question. And I’m definitely on the idea that it’ll end up just being a weird little peripheral that people do. But you know, you never know about these things. Maybe when you do put. . . Now, as it gets better, it is the scary thing of is this the thing of is this the thing that people just put porn on and never leave, you know. . . Even back in. . . Remember? We talked about this even back in season 1. Once you compress the orgasm button in your brain. . .
Casey:
Right, right. Yeah.
Jeff:
And just immediately do it, that’s the end of the human race. And this definitely could get you closer to the point where. . .
Casey:
I still. . . But I never have thought that’s really that big of a problem because I feel like you already have built into you the orgasm spacing function. That’s why you don’t just masturbate all day, every day.
Jeff:
No, I think. . .
Casey:
It’s because after you’re done, you’re kind of done for a while.
Jeff:
Well, there are people that go to extremes that you are probably unaware of.
Casey:
Well, okay. Sure, but those are not the entire human race. So we have a built in mechanism for this which is people who don’t masturbate 24/7.
Jeff:
Yeah. But I think when you have. . . Like, when we do the rat thing of, like. . .
Casey:
The rat thing?
Jeff:
Well, the. . . When you can provide, like, the exact dopamine hit when you hit a lever, like. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Rats hit that lever over food, over almost anything else. So like, I think there is the idea. . . It is very possible that VR could be that kind of all-encompassing thing of, like, “Oh, hey, it’s. . .” You put this on and whether it’s sex or whether it’s just. . . People take drugs to see crazy shit.
Casey:
Yeah, this is all just a load of horse shit. No.
Jeff:
No. . .
Casey:
I don’t buy any of that. And the reason is. . . We talked about this before. The reason is because that is what people think will happen any time there’s anything. That’s what you think with fucking meth or gambling or any of those other things. But the reality is that’s looking at it not as a species, right. Like, the bottom line is specie-ly speaking, we have a defence for this which the multi-variate types of minds and social behaviours that we have developed. . .
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
Keep this from being a species-wide problem. That’s why you fucking have Amish. . . There are people who won’t even use electricity, Jeff.
Jeff:
Of course.
Casey:
The chances that we’ll have any problem with VR as the species-ending drug is just ridiculous.
Jeff:
It’s not the species-ending drug. It is the thing that. . .
Casey:
It is the thing. . .
Jeff:
Wait, wait, wait. It is the first thing that affects people to the direction that I feel uncomfortable that World of Warcraft sucks people into that you go, “Oh, we lost N percentage of people in the real world who just play that stupid game.” It would get more than that.
Casey:
But that’s fine. What I’m saying is that is how the human race works. Right now. . .
Jeff:
No, no. I’m not saying that. Of course. They could go take drugs. They could do whatever.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
What I’m saying is this is something that people are building and I don’t think they think about that.
Casey:
Oh, yeah, but they’re all. . . I mean, that’s the same thing with World of Warcraft. Like, this is. . . Over and over it happens. But the good news, I think, for all of this is that’s just. . . It’s just the Black Death. It’s just the plague. It’s like. . . It thins out the numbers. Good.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Like, we got rid of the people who are gonna fucking just wear VR all day. But you know what, those people were probably the same people who were, like, commenting all day on the forums, who are annoying as fuck. Like, we got rid of a segment of the population who does these sorts of things and can’t perceive that there’s better things to do with their time.
Jeff:
Actually, what you just said there is interesting.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
What if it was a VR. . . And this is a simpler VR to do. . .
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
A VR environment. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That is itself YouTube. . .
Casey:
What?
Jeff:
And let’s them comment all day long but they’re not commenting in the real world. They’re just in this stupid VR world where they’re commenting. . .
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And then nothing leaks out. Then you just have to give them. . .
Casey:
But you don’t need VR for that. You just need your browser window to lie to you, basically, right?
Jeff:
Well, you need Google to have built in some stuff of, like, what you can and can’t see. That’s true.
Casey:
Yeah. Well, I believe that Valve already has one of these, actually. I mean, speaking of Valve. Their matchmaking systems, I believe, try to pair assholes up with assholes.
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
They try to close that circuit so that you basically get, like, the people who are bitching all the time and being bad sports. . .
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
They try to basically self-segregate the thing which is what you want YouTube to do.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, you want YouTube to basically self-segregate so that it’s basically like, okay, all the people who are posting the stupid comments are all just seeing each other’s comments.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But the other people never see any of those comments. . .
Jeff:
See any of that action?
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
It’s hard to break out of your pre-subscribed group. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
When you get your shit together.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
One funny thing about that is. . . Who was I talking. . . Oh, I was talking to Gabe about this once. . .
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Of like, we were talking about [ client side ] prediction. . .
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And how much you can fake, like, what the other person, like, “Oh, you’re playing with somebody else. . .”
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
And you diverge or whatever. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And you both win. And Gabe’s argument was that if you both had a satisfying experience, it doesn’t matter that you both won. Do you know what I mean? He was like, arguing that, like. . . How. . .
Casey:
If you [ never find out ]. . .
Jeff:
Yeah. And I think it was me, Gabe, and Jay who were talking about this of, like, how far you can go with, like, letting people believe they’re awesome when they’re really not. . .
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And how positive that is or bad it is for games in general. It was a very funny conversation.
Casey:
Well, I mean, their. . . Team Fortress 2’s design is, like, based on that concept.
Jeff:
Yeah, I suppose that’s true.
Casey:
Like, Team Fortress 2’s design is based on the concept that you are trying to inject a large amount of randomness into the game play experience. Unlike Counter-Strike, for example, which is supposed to be more about skill because you are trying to give lousy players the ability to have a good experience sometimes by lucking out and making a contribution. . .
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
And similarly, you’re trying to give mediocre or good players the opportunity to make excuses for potentially legitimately bad play, right? If there’s a fair bit of randomness in your game, you can be like, “Oh, fucking. . . The thing was,” like, whatever. . . Right? If the game is brutally good and keeps things extremely accurate, then it’s really only your fault if you got shot.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But if you know that there’s a fair bit of float in there, then you can, like, place that blame elsewhere. And so, their kind of argument there is, like, it’s a win-win in that scenario. I don’t know how I feel about any of that but I don’t play Team Fortress [inaudible 46:56]
Jeff:
I’ve never played Team Fortress at all so I couldn’t. . . I don’t know any. . . I don’t have any. . .
Casey:
But point being. . . So yeah, that’s not really about lying to the clients in some [inaudible 47:08] definition of lying. But it is about that sort of like, “Yeah, this isn’t supposed to really be a sport in that way.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s more like a fun experience. And Vegas is this way, too, right? It’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah. . . Like, there’s a lot of randomness in these games, even the ones that are “skill-based” like Blackjack or something like this. It’s pseudo-skill-based but there’s a lot of randomness. And part of the win there in the randomness, if you believe there is a win there, is that, “Hey, I could go win $100 in Blackjack even though I don’t fucking know how to count cards or any of these other things. . .”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“Or even really know the odds. . .”
Jeff:
If you quit at the right time. . .
Casey:
If I just. . . You know, I play it ten times, one of those times, I might win. The first time I play, I might win. And that’s like, an interesting thing in terms of human psychology. You might argue it’s a little manipulative. . .
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But it’s definitely different than chess where if I sit down to play this, I will not luck into a win the first time I play chess.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You will lose brutally the first time you play chess against a better opponent. Period.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
There will not be like a, “Oh, I lucked out and the pawn turned into a queen.” Nope, that didn’t happen. You just got owned.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So there you go. By the homeless dude in the park. . .
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You just got owned. Period.
Jeff:
I walk by those guys because they’re in Union Square.
Casey:
Yeah, in New York City?
Jeff:
I walk by the all the time. And I’m like. . . I used to play chess a fair amount. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And I was like, “Oh, some time I should just sit down.”
Casey:
Nope.
Jeff:
But I know there’s gonna be so much. . .
Casey:
Oh, yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah, yeah.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Okay, so the 2nd thing I wanted to talk about. . .
Casey:
You’re out of time.
Jeff:
No, we’re keeping going.
Casey:
What?
Jeff:
This is short. We’re gonna do 2.
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
Yes. We just go. Remember?
Casey:
No, no. This is. . . I’m calling it. We’re gonna start a new podcast.
Jeff:
No, no, no, no, no. Let’s not do that. Let’s do it right now.
Casey:
No. New podcast.
Jeff:
Oh, my God.
Casey:
’Cos we’ve got a lot to talk about this.
Jeff:
Alright. So. . .
Casey:
We’ve got a lot to talk about this. So we need to wrap this up. We’ve 12 minutes left.
Jeff:
Alright, well that means for sure the next one, we’ll do McGruff the Crime Dog which is really what I wanted to get to so. . .
Casey:
Right. This was supposed to be. . . This whole podcast was supposed to be on McGruff the Crime Dog. . .
Jeff:
Yeah, unfortunately. . .
Casey:
Obviously, we had a problem with staying on top of it as we often do. So you know what, it’s cool because the next week, we will. . .
Jeff:
Be back on top of it. . .
Casey:
Yeah, ‘cos that’s like tops on the list, McGruff the Crime Dog. . .
Jeff:
Number 1 thing.
Casey:
Number 1 thing is McGruff the Crime Dog. So we’ll talk about McGruff the Crime Dog and all [inaudible 49:21]
Jeff:
And then we’ll get on to anything we talk about.
Casey:
And then we will move on.
Jeff:
McGruff first.
Casey:
McGruff first. . .
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Because I feel like we’ve put it off long enough at this point.
Jeff:
If you want to add something to the podcast list. . .
Casey:
To the growing topics pile.
Jeff:
What we should probably do at some point. . .
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is do something online where you can submit online and people can vote it. . .
Casey:
You’re right. A vote up/down thing. . . Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah, that would be a ton of fun.
Casey:
The only thing is then we would have podcasts that’s just Autoblow every week, right?
Jeff:
That’s true.
Casey:
It’ll just be sex, robotic sex toys, every week. . .
Jeff:
We don’t have to listen. It just pre-sorts it.
Casey:
Oh, okay. So it’s basically just giving us. . . It’s letting us know what the public wants. . .
Jeff:
Right, exactly.
Casey:
In case we choose to abide by that.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But we could deviate if we decide that it’s the 6th week in a row of robotic sex toys and we need to move on.
Jeff:
Yeah, I’m sure you can. . . Those petition sites are, like, online. We should just figure out how to do that. That would be fun. And then maybe next. . . In a couple weeks, we’ll have like a link you can go to and then put stuff in.
Casey:
A thing for, like, up/down vote. Okay. And I’ll move all our topics from our existing topics pile. . .
Jeff:
Into there?
Casey:
Into there?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I like that. Okay. Email us at Podcast@. . .
Casey:
Podcast@JeffAndCaseyShow.com, your finest link for podcast email news scoops. . .
Jeff:
That’s right. . .
Casey:
Right? News. . . Breaking news. . . When you need us to cover breaking news from around the world. . .
Jeff:
We’ll go there.
Casey:
We will cover it and we will cover it in detail. We just can’t promise that we’ll cover it. . .
Jeff:
Correctly.
Casey:
Coherently. . .
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Or you know, in a focused, non-ADD fashion. . .
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because that’s not really our strong suit here at the Jeff & Casey Show.
Jeff:
Alright. Well, hey, thanks, everybody.
Casey:
Thank you for listening.
Jeff:
And we will see you next week.
Casey:
We will see you next week.
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casey muratori
the jeff and casey show - season 4 - episode 22
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