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The Technician
No Imperfections Noted
The Jeff and Casey Show
Jeff and Casey Time
Casey Muratori
Seattle, WA
Sentenced to Smells Already Smelt
"I got Binged in the Binghole."
Original air date: November 16th, 2009
Topics. The X-Files. Charles Bloom. Outhouses. Fonts. Shrinkage. Truth. ClearType. Singers. The FBI. Chrome. Yoga. Zodiak. SafeSearch. Superpowers. Colombo. DNS redirectors. Programmers. Freud. Bing. Flash.
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Transcript
Jeff:
Hey everybody, welcome to the Jeff and Casey Show! This is the last of the mega cast. This is the last of the eighth hour of the mega cast and we’ll jump right into that.
Casey:
Well, let’s go into something from Kim Pallister because he writes in fairly frequently and we haven’t done any questions yet. So, this is an email from him where says, he’s sending it from Portland, Oregon which is very close to where he lives. I imagine because Intel is just down the road from Portland, Oregon.
Jeff:
He was here at Microsoft for a while, and now he’s back to Intel.
Casey:
This link is sort of along the lines of the seedier links we’ve been doing lately. He wrote in with, “Two time terd spelunker caught peering up from the bottom of pit betweens again.”
Jeff:
Oh, didn’t we do this guy?!
Casey:
Did we? I don’t think so.
Jeff:
I don’t think we did.
Casey:
I don’t think we did. It says, “Portland’s Gary Moody has been caught for a second time, hiding inside a pit latrine at a camp site. The first time he claimed he dropped his wedding ring. Authorities sifted the biomass and found no ring.
Jeff:
It’s amazing he’s not married.
Casey:
This time he claimed he dropped his shirt. In affidavit, he describes himself as having an outhouse problem. So, first of all I would say that affidavit sounds correct. I would say he does in fact have an outhouse problem and he is not making outhouse problem as a cover for something else that’s going on there. Probably not.
Jeff:
No. I think that was a rare completely honest statement. You know, humans lie all the time. Even if you don’t mean to, even if you’re the nicest person, we lie and we cast ourself. It’s just how we work.
Casey:
Yup. It’s just easier for you to say that dress looked nice or whatever, so you did.
Jeff:
When he says, “I have an outhouse problem.” That was a rare look at someone telling the absolute truth.
Casey:
Difficult truth about results.
Jeff:
Difficult truth, and we should celebrate Gary Moody for coming clean by coming dirty.
Casey:
In my mind I’m trying to think of the DSM sort of, what’s the word I’m looking for, diagnostic criteria for outhouse problem. I’m guessing number one is something like sort of is frequently unable to make social engagements. Number two distant on occasion and refuses to tell family members where they’ve been. Number 3 is found in…
Jeff:
First in the vicinity. Just hanging around an outhouse.
Casey:
Right. And four is inside the toilet compartment of an outhouse looking up at you while you pee on him.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
That one is the crux and we’ve got that one here so I’m thinking we can go ahead and confirm that he’s a full-on outhouse problem child.
Jeff:
Yes, he has a problem.
Casey:
Right. Now what I want to know is, when he claimed he dropped his ring, people have actually dropped valuable things into toilets before. That sounds like a plausible excuse. Second time he said he dropped his shirt. Now that’s more interesting.
Jeff:
Car keys maybe.
Casey:
How does that happen? Oh I was carrying my shirt and oops I dropped it into the toilet. That doesn’t make any sense to me.
Jeff:
I took my shirt off to use the facilities, and.. yeah he wasn’t prepared to get caught the second time.
Casey:
On the other hand, as we know from our previous podcast, you pee all over a fucking public restroom and you didn’t have an excuse for that. You didn’t offer an explanation like I dropped my shirt.
Jeff:
No, I was tired. Let me just say this. If I dropped, trying to think of a level.
Casey:
Right. This is up your ally with the bathroom problem. This is a mental neurosis you will never have.
Jeff:
I’m thinking this around. I’m thinking how much cash I’d have to drop in that thing.
Casey:
Probably all of it. Probably 100% of the cash you have.
Jeff:
I’m thinking somewhere in the half a million range. If I dropped that in there, I’d hold my nose and go in after it. Anything less…
Casey:
So if you dropped 450,000 dollars in, you’re just like, “Leave it.”
Jeff:
I think how much I dropped in, I’d be offering reward money around. But assuming that like no one was around, and I’m out in the woods, this is cleaned out at some point and I’m fucked all my money is gone. Or maybe the money dissolves from the grime.
Casey:
Who knows, does it corrode? I don’t know.
Jeff:
I don’t know. I want to know, but I’m assuming that something happens.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
now, if there’s no hose nearby to hose off, I think the money is gone. It doesn’t matter. It’s like, “I’m broke, I understand, I am not going in there.”
Casey:
Yup.
Jeff:
But if there’s a hose, I’m thinking about $450, I could probably buy a new Ferrari. I’d go in for that.
Casey:
Okay. That’s the level that you’re at?
Jeff:
That’s the level I’m at for that. I’d still probably throw in a baby and like get my keys little baby. Like on a rope..
Casey:
Baby Jessica, you’d get her down to the well…
Jeff:
I’d be like, “See the shinies?“ No, no put that down. No don’t put that… oh…”
Casey:
Don’t throw that… yea.
Jeff:
You see that, you got the shinies, and then hoist her up. It would take a lot for me to get down there, but yeah. “I have an outhouse problem.” I didn’t know there were such things as outhouse problems.
Casey:
Well there is. Just to bring it back around, in October of 2005 Moody pleaded no contest to trespass. The judge imposed a 30 day jail sentence but suspended all of it in exchange for 2 years’ probation.
Jeff:
Yeah, that was a mistake. These too judges are too lenient. Trespass is the best they could get?
Casey:
Yeah with these problematic outhouse people.
Jeff:
Wasn’t he pairing up? You assume he wants to get degraded somehow. You assume that’s the little fetish thing is happening there…
Casey:
I don’t know because it doesn’t really…
Jeff:
You’d think that he’d be exposing himself to like…
Casey:
I don’t know, it just says, “He was ordered to pay a $1000 fine and $700 restitution to the foresters for the cost of pumping out the toilet tank and screening contents.”
Jeff:
Because he lied?
Casey:
Because he lied about the ring. He could’ve saved some money by saying, “I just like poop.”
Jeff:
I’m a pooper… I like it…
Casey:
He also was sentenced to three days in jail in Maine for violating conditions of his probation by leaving state without permission. He had been on probation for drunk driving conditions. ”This gentleman has been through a great deal of media scrutiny and drawn to himself, should I say, notoriety and a healthy share of bathroom humor if you will.” District Court Judge Pamela Alby said during sentencing in New Hampshire.
Jeff:
That’s very understanding. That’s in Portland?
Casey:
This is in Portland, Oregon.
Jeff:
She really put herself in the mind of him. He’s embarrassed. Part of that degradation, maybe being outted is even more boner inducing than climbing around down there. This is a degradation. There’s got to be some part of like people degraded.
Casey:
I am happy to say that I am unable to put myself into the head of an outhouse diver. I’m actually not upset with myself for not being able to come up with the exact mindset that leads someone to do that. the stench alone… I would just sentence them to smells already smelled.
Jeff:
For time served in the outhouse, the hours down there. But he gets off on that..
Casey:
That doesn’t matter. I don’t know the way that works with punishment. Because for example, let’s say someone fucking loves prison. They get off on it. It’s a sex thing for them. They fucking love prison. We don’t not send them to prison for that. they still go to prison. That’s a punishment, and if for some weird ass reason you really love prison, you lucked out right? Here it’s sort of like, I don’t know. They went through a horrible process and just because they love it, I’m not sure I don’t still consider it a punishment. That’s their super power.
Jeff:
Yeah. The pooper. And whenever there’s a problem with poopinator villain, he comes to the rescue and climbs right in and digs it. He has to have a loose fitting suit because he’s very excited to fight the poopinator and you don’t’ want the kids to see that in the skin tight outfit.
Casey:
Yeah. In 2009..
Jeff:
He got caught twice.
Casey:
right. In 2009 he got caught again.
Jeff:
Right. I like the police work here.
Casey:
This time it was in New Hampshire, no I’m sorry. The first time was in New Hampshire, the second time was in Portland, and I guess like a special agent for the US Forests Service investigated the report from a camp ground manager and they went and tracked him down figuring it had to be the same guy, and it was!
Jeff:
That is like some… he should be working for the FBI.
Casey:
He’s like Colombo or some shit.
Jeff:
He put this shit together. He’s like, “I did this profile. I think this matches..”
Casey:
Yeah, it’s like Zodiac or some shit. He’s solving these unsolved crimes.
Jeff:
Right. And then he figured it out, and yeah that is some serious…. He didn’t have to dust for prints. His first principles deduced this action.
Casey:
Or it’s like Colombo. The city went to interview the guy. So he goes in there and he’s like, “Listen sir, I don’t want to take up too much time. It’s just my superiors, they see an outhouse thing, they think of you. They want someone to come down and make sure you didn’t do it. I know you didn’t do it. So I’ll leave you alone. I’ll see you later.” Then he mistakes the door, and he goes into the guys bathroom. Or like, “Can I just use your bathroom.” You know I couldn’t help but notice, your toilet has a flusher that seems to be disconnected, have you gotten that… did you see this guy btw? There he is. Do you want to take a look at that?
Jeff:
yeah you know, there’s a lot of pre arrests.
Casey:
He kind of looks like the cow penis guy.
Jeff:
I don’t know. He doesn’t quite have… he’s not a pre arrest to me.
Casey:
He wasn’t a pre arrest, I don’t think so. Well to be fair, this guy hasn’t really caused that much of a problem. He’s just in an outhouse.
Jeff:
Right, only for himself. Right. Like Freud is freaking out. He would like to get this guy on a couch. This is like… it’s like finding the missing link in Nairobi where they search to try and find Mary or something..
Casey:
Lucy…
Jeff:
Yeah they found Lucy. This guy is like Freud’s Lucy.
Casey:
The anal expulsive nature…
Jeff:
He fills out some grid..
Casey:
This is the guy..
Jeff:
This is the guy.
Casey:
If only they could deconstruct his brain and figure it out.
Jeff:
They have it all.
Casey:
He is the fossilized remains that links it all together.
Jeff:
That is a bucking X file right there because you’ve got someone committing these crazy crimes, and no one can solve it, but Molder is like, “I think it’s the same guy.” And everyone is like, “Ah Molder..”
Casey:
Well the agent said, “We don’t have a file cabinet drawer with things like this. It’s in a cabinet category by itself.”
Jeff:
Special file cabinet.
Casey:
Suffice to say… all the files in this are in plastic wrap.
Jeff:
exactly.
Casey:
For our own protection. Alright, well thank you Kim.
Jeff:
Wow, I don’t know how you prep yourself for that mission.
Casey:
You don’t. You don’t.
Jeff:
You don’t’ get gear? Or antibiotics before you jump in?
Casey:
I have no fucking idea.
Jeff:
You have to think this through.
Casey:
Shall I move on?
Jeff:
Move it.
Casey:
Alright. Let’s go back to Dave Moore. We have a lot of Dave Moore’s. Let’s see what else he has for us. In this email Dave Moore says only one thing, he says, “Call it. Google is pretty much done for.” He links the thing from the Official Google Blog who’s title is, “Insight from Googler’s into our product’s technology and the Google culture.” That’s the byline for this blog. The entry is “Now Supersized, search that is.” For us search has always been our focus, and today you’ll notice that our home page and our search results are growing in size. Although this is a simple idea and even a simpler change, we’re excited about it because it symbolizes our focus on search and it makes our clean minimalist homepage even easier and more fun to use. The new larger Google search box features larger text when you type, so you can see your query more clearly. It also uses a larger text size for the suggestions below the search box, making easier to select one of the refinements. Over the past 11 years we’ve made a number of changes to our homepage. Some are small, some are large, and in this case it’s a small change that makes search more prominent.
Jeff:
Done. That’s what that means. That does mean done. Okay, first off the one funny thing about this, I noticed something was wrong with the search page. I thought it was my machine. I’m like, “Oh fuck, did I get the large font?” Not only was it bigger, but they chose some weird fractional font size that clear type doesn’t do… it does it.. but it’s wrong a little bit. Maybe they chose it in pixels and not points or something. They fucked it up back when they did the suggestions like as you type…
Casey:
Right, yeah that slows everything down. It’s all choky.
Jeff:
It’s all jumpy. You type shit. And what you search for… I can’t remember what I found. Where did I find this? And you start typing what you think you search for and autocomplete tries to fill it in. That doesn’t work anymore..
Casey:
Right, because JavaScript is fucking it up now.
Jeff:
It’s fucking it up. Everything you’re doing on the homepage sucks now Google. It’s just awesome. There are ads for comb up in the corner. You’ve got shit all over there.it never remembers my settings. I don’t know how many times I’ve searched safe search off. By the way, when I want to search for something of a particular nature, okay guys you’re not helping me. Leave the fonts alone. Remember that I want safe search off. Okay, Jeff Roberts..
Casey:
Jeff Roberts wants his porn search. He wants 0 click porn searches. He does not want to click a button first to be able to do that.
Jeff:
I just like easier, more fun to use because it’s bigger. Like what the fuck? Seriously? Just don’t even… Yeah we made it bigger. People are getting older. They can’t see the shit anymore. Monitors are huge now. No one can see anything because we’re all going blind and we have these big monitors. Probably because we’re masturbating to your safe search all the time.
Casey:
Remove safe search, turn it off.
Jeff:
We should be getting more eagle eye
Casey:
Exactly, yea.
Jeff:
It’s like, dude, don’t even tell… this isn’t worth anything. You’re just embarrassing yourself, stop it.
Casey:
I guess, Jeff came down on a pickier side of the issue. In my mind, I don’t think what they did warrants any comment whatsoever. I would say the fact they bothered to try to sound excited about it is more the problem.
Jeff:
IT’s a little scary.
Casey:
That’s more of the problem in my mind. I do feel like it’s a good sign if people are thinking about small aspects of their user experience. Now whether this was a good or bad decision is a separate thing. At least someone at Google is thinking about what the size should be in the box. It was Microsoft. They were written in the document, six years ago, and today someone would have read it, 14 pixels, and put that in and it’s never discussed again, ever, for 20 more years.
Jeff:
If you can find the search box because there’s so much ass around it. Google at least advertises chrome and I Google and shit like that. Microsoft is full on. Yeah.
Casey:
Bing!
Jeff:
God Damnit. I got Binged the other day.
Casey:
What does that mean?
Jeff:
My bios, they fucking…
Casey:
Oh wowwwwww
Jeff:
Fucking… the DNS, bios, when BING is not found they pop with everything.
Casey:
That should be illegal.
Jeff:
That should be fucking illegal.
Casey:
You need that! Automated things can’t tell!
Jeff:
Yeah! They don’t know you’re getting their front browser. So they are fucking your shit, right?
Casey:
Yes. It’s terrible.
Jeff:
So I figure out there’s this crazy way to turn that off. It takes me a while because your VPN’ing in from here to home, and from home to there and it’s wrong again. Finally got it all fixed. Now IE8 goes to Bing when it gets the 404. Now that’s better in the since of when it’s awful because it’s not going to fuck up the protocol.
Casey:
Exactly, it’s fine.
Jeff:
But still they have this thing called Smart HTML that used to turn that off. It used to turn it off. You get binged.
Casey:
That sounds like anti trusting again, are they going to get in trouble again for that?
Jeff:
I don’t know. I don’t know how it works.
Casey:
I’m surprised they tried that.
Jeff:
I looked it up. Here’s how to turn it off. But it doesn’t do it. It’s something else. IT goes to Bing.
Casey:
To be fair, that is probably a legitimate bug knowing Microsoft. They probably tried, they just failed. They couldn’t get it to work.
Jeff:
They get binged dude, they get binged. Right in the Bing hole.
Casey:
I guess i wonder if Microsoft, after this announcement is like, “Fuck ,we got behind again on the small search text entry box. WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE DOING? WHY AM I PAYING YOU? WE SHOULD HAVE A SEARCH BOX LIKE 7 TIMES THE SIZE OF THE SCREEN, THE SCROLL TO SEE IT, 72 pts.”
Jeff:
They would just go the other way.
Casey:
“IF I GET FIT MORE THAN 2 LETTERS OF BING WITHOUT HAVING TO USE THE SCROLL BAR YOU’RE ALL FIRED.”
Jeff:
Have you tried Bing?
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
It’s insane.
Casey:
Why would I do that?
Jeff:
You should try it sometime. Web
Casey:
0 baby. You start typing, shit pops up over the place. Reformatting, it’s moving.
Casey:
All I know is I saw a lot of people who have the shirts on that said, “It’s time for a decision engine.” That was their marketing slogan.
Jeff:
You saw people wearing these in public?
Casey:
Yeah. Microsoft people are proud of their lineage.
Jeff:
I thought it was they never leave, they don’t go shopping, so they get t-shirts.
Casey:
I don’t know. I don’t know. Jeff. I don’t know. I don’t know what..
Jeff:
You’re talking about sounder shirts. The sounder shits are everywhere.
Casey:
If I knew how people took 30 years basically not advancing an operating system at all, I might have answers for you. But I don’t. I have no idea. So I couldn’t tell you. I don’t know what they are doing. All I know is the intimation that a product is going to be making or beating me in a decision making process was something I will never be interested in trying. I don’t want to see it. That to me, enough ill will has been built up around the products from this company that I don’t want to be involved in any decision I might make, accidental or intentional.
Jeff:
Maybe that’s.. maybe they make the decisions at that company now through Bing. That’s why you get these crazy… are you trying to make a video? And you’re like no we weren’t. but that’s an excellent idea.
Casey:
Thanks Bing, you’re the best.
Jeff:
It looks like you’re trying to write a script. Would you like me to help you with that? No… Yea, yeah I do. Bing, what do you think?
Casey:
Right. It looks your trying to throw a Microsoft Windows 7 launch party, would you like to not do that please don’t do that?
Jeff:
Would you like to have sex again?
Casey:
That’s a good point. You just brought it up. I’ve never used Bing before, but I’m going to type bing.com in there when I get there. It came up with a picture of a hammerhead shark.
Jeff:
he’s thinking what that’s all about. He gave me an animal I like, I approve of that.
Casey:
The first thing interesting about this is as if people don’t waste enough time on the internet, you’re already going to the search page to fuck off, probably, but on the off chance you weren’t going to look up some random fact you don’t need to know, or turn off safe search, it comes up with something to distract you from what you were doing.
Jeff:
Yeah, what was I doing?
Casey:
Hey a hammerhead shark with a mouth I can click on that says, “Scientists estimate that this type of fish emerged back in the Emosine Epoch over 30,000,000 years ago. Watch some living fish in action.” It’s like your worst nightmare. It’s like giving you animal links when you’re trying to do something else.
Jeff:
You’re on my network. So maybe it’s analyzed Jeff.
Casey:
It knows.
Jeff:
It knows you have to throw animal links. If you hit refresh it will give other Jeff kinds of things.
Casey:
Here’s the things, I told you you said before, go find the windows 7 launch party video. I typed it into Google, and all I got were parodies. Let’s type it into Bing, and see what I get. So, windows 7 launch party, that’s what we’re supposed to search for?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Return. Not surprisingly none of the parodies appear in these search results. How interesting. They are all Microsoft official shit.
Jeff:
Give one a go.
Casey:
Which one?
Jeff:
pick one.
Casey:
The top result is Windows 7 launch party finalist emails sent out…
Jeff:
Look for one that’ a video.
Casey:
House party, global windows 7 launch party…
Jeff:
I wonder if you’re going to have to download Silverlight and get your..
Casey:
I have it because I have Netflix.
Jeff:
Oh god, they got you. They got you.
Casey:
Here you go. Looking for your party site? Choose your location and language.
Jeff:
No that’s the thing I was talking about where it shows you where the parties are. We didn’t have a launch party. We need to have a launch party.
Casey:
We should probably have a Jeff and Casey show launch party and invite everyone on the podcast to come. Which has already been launched by the time they are hearing this.
Jeff:
But maybe by then the crazy party would’ve happened.
Casey:
Some kind of crazy party.. It’s not working, the sites working.
Jeff:
Fuck it. Fuck it, next question.
Casey:
Yup.
Jeff:
Next question.
Casey:
From our emails?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Alright. That was Dave Moore who called it, say Google is done. And you called it. So here we go, from Matis, “One of the best number plates.” And he sent in a photo… uh I guess this isn’t something you can read. We’ll have to post this on the thing. That’s pretty smart.
Jeff:
It’s Virginia. What’s good about that one is that from the license plate bureau, they are seeing a question for Angina, he’s a heart doctor. He hasn’t noticed that the Virginia license plate always starts with a capital V.
Casey:
That was pretty impressive. Let’s go to Mike Myer who writes in, “Hey guys. I really enjoy your show every week.”
Jeff:
Mike Meyers?
Casey:
Mike Meyers, not the actor, but someone who listens to podcast.
Jeff:
Maybe it is the actor? He’s stealing our shit like he steals everyone else’s ideas. God damn dickhead.
Casey:
No it’s not.
Jeff:
There’s going to be in the next Love Guru, something from the Podcast. God dam nit.
Casey:
Hey guys, I really enjoy your show every week, and this latest copyright one in particular. This may not be podcast worthy, but this guy is insane enough to entertain once you get over wanting to punch him.
Jeff:
That was the video of a man who posted a video response to something on an Indy game list who was angry about the thing, probably way too angry, it was an informal, let’s have an Indy game thing, best game wins.
Casey:
What was his problems?
Jeff:
He ranted about how it shouldn’t be judged by the public, but people who have better taste than the public. There was one thing interesting that was worth talking about, he was like “no, the other thing is people would judge these games based on how fun they are and not how hard they were to develop. For example, someone who wrote their game in assembly should be weighted differently than someone who wrote their game in Flash.”
Casey:
So demo comp kind of rules. Where you’re like, “He fit in 64k, so it’s awesome.”
Jeff:
As a game developer, I blah blah blah over again, he seemed like young kid that was too intense. And like once he gets out and realizes, there’s a thing that happens. Generally especially in our industry it’s full of very smart people and you start out thinking you’re the hottest shit in the world because in your little part of the world you are the hottest shit.
Casey:
What you don’t realize is there’s people like me and Jeff out there who are just way better than you and they’ll have to come to grips with that.
Jeff:
Well, there is a set of pools that you keep finding yourself deeper in, and you’re like holy shit there’s people. What you eventually do when you’re older and wiser, is that pool keeps going for ever and ever and ever. No matter how awesome you think you are, there’s somewhere more awesome than you. It seems like somewhere, there’s a guy out there that’s the most awesome because there’s not. Because the awesome changes all the time. There’s this weird thing that happens…
Casey:
I guess I’ve never experienced the thing you’re talking about where you meet someone more awesome than you. I can see it happening eventually, I hypothesize what you’re talking about. I said it hasn’t happened.
Jeff:
Let me tell you a funny story. I’ll tell you a funny story that’s happened recently. We have a lot of awesome guys here at rad. One of them is Charles. We were trading an email response that you were on, Charles was on, Chris hecker, john blow. I mentioned I had seen an interesting way of space time and why time slows down as you move.
Casey:
Was I on this?
Jeff:
You were on this.
Casey:
I guess this was those emails I didn’t read.
Jeff:
I said I’d seen a site and I forgot to hit the link. Hecker says, “Where’s the link?” Before I responded Charles responded. He’s a programmer at rad, but he’s also a theoretical physicist from Cal Tech. Cal tech is the relabeling of how smart you think you are. Not what you’re good at. Maybe programming. If the aliens come, I’d still rather pick me to fight the aliens in a programming battle than most people I know. But Charles was a theoretical physicist at Cal tech. he dumps about 3 pages of stuff on how’s here how to intuit what happens in relativity as you approach the speed of light with crazy multipliers, blab la bla, and it’s three pages long. Then I’m like, “I’m not posting my link.” The shrinkage that occurred in penis side…
Casey:
The thing is, how is that wrong? However that shit’s wrong. You’d be like, “Charles what is this article..” he’d be like, “Oh sorry, that’s not right.”
Jeff:
I’m just saying the amount of craziness that people have that you don’t. this happens all over the place. I remember one time we had a yoga studio, and there was this crazy lady there, 40, or 50, and is dumpy and wears loose fitting clothes. I’m thinking, or whatever, there’s this weird thing, and in yoga there’s an emotional connection kind of thing. We’ve had people cry at the end of yoga classes because of spiritual whatever. Especially women in their 45 or 50 year old range are looking for something. “Hey the kids are out of the house. I’m fucked up. I’m married to some fucker.” It’s this weird shit that happens. But wait. She said, “you should come to this thing, I’m singing at this thing.” I’m like, “how am I going to get out of this?” Alisha is like, “We should just go.” So we go to this thing and it’s a high school. I’m like oh my god, it’s a shitty thing. Turns out that the guy that runs the glee club there, or whatever, sings for the Seattle opera. The opera people, and even musicians do a lot of teaching because they make shit right? They don’t make a good living unless your Yo Yo ma, or something. So he comes out…
Casey:
Does yo yo ma make a good living?
Jeff:
Maybe? I don’t know. I’d assume so, yeah. I would assume if you’re the best in your profession you make a good living.
Casey:
I guess. But I can’t really think of where the money is coming from.
Jeff:
Yeah I don’t know. CD cells, concert. Touring is supposed to be big money.
Casey:
I have no idea.
Jeff:
So he’s there, and it’s her husband. And he’s always wearing a shirt that says Dr. Funk and the something. He’s in some shitty cover band. I’m like, oh god, here’s Dr. Funk. I said this to Alisha.
Casey:
I’m thinking in my mind of the scene from the Break Up where he’s like, “I have a passion too. It’s Acapella. Right? He was like, hit me with the baseline.”
Jeff:
It was crazy. Here we go. Then he sings the song from La Miz and is…
Casey:
The song from La Miz, because there’s only one. I don’t know what the fuck that means. The one song they wrote for La Miz is a play with one song. He doesn’t have a son but that’s pretty — I mean before he became a convict. Are you talking about Bring Him Home?
Jeff:
I don’t know. All I know is they were singing without mics, because it was a high school, and if the hair could have been blown back on my head on how clear and perfect is voice was… I’m like, “It’s fucking Dr. Funk, what the fuck?! I’m like, Holy Shit, that was awesome, I can’t believe this.” She comes out, and is probably 5 times better than him. The most purest… she’s just this lady that walks around. She has a voice that probably one in a million people on earth have. Just amazing. I’m blown away. Alisha was crying it’s so perfect.
Casey:
What does she do for a living?
Jeff:
She does voice lessons. She’s married and she was a housewife. Like blew us away. I’ve never seen anything. I’m sure like with them in the Opera you expect that to happen. They Rae just up there on a stage, 10 feet in front of you, it’s just different. It’s finding out someone you know is a super hero because that’s what they do. They have this secret super power where they can sing. Everybody has that shit, and you forget, you walk around and you think, “I’m an awesome programmer, and I’m better than everybody.” And you forget, and there’s things out there and like this and people walking around, eating a hamburger that can solve theoretical physics questions. I don’t think you know that when you’re 18 to 20. It takes a while before you realize like holy shit there’s a lot of people with super powers. Maybe my super powers aren’t as good as I thought. I’m going to spend 20 years honing my super powers. And when I look back and go holy shit i was such an asshole then because I’m so much more wise. That’s what the video, it just came across as a young kid or whatever. But it is an interesting debate to me to say like, or a comical thing to say let’s have an Indy game competition which is not based on how fun the game is but how hard it was to write. If there’s some less important to me as a game player and not a game developer, it’s how much energy you spent writing this. That’s why the demo thing doesn’t do a lot for me, except to say, “That’s kind of cool that it’s 256 bytes.” But it doesn’t mean a lot to me that someone chose the 256 byte one, and someone chose the 4k one, the 4k one looks a lot better, and the 256 byte is like, “Yeah, that’s because he had four times the memory. That is just cheating.” That doesn’t do it for me.
Casey:
I guess here’s what I would say about that. I have something to say about everything. That should be the open and shut but it’s not. But one thing I would say about that is I haven’t seen the video of this guy and I’m sure he’s freaky.
Jeff:
He is but it’s okay.
Casey:
Who isn’t in this world..
Jeff:
Especially smart programmers.
Casey:
Yup. The thing I will say about that though is that we actually do, and I don’t know if Europe has the same problem, it might not. But Europe is a general case. We’re talking about the big programming countries like Sweden, Finland, and Germany and so on. Not France… Certainly not Italy.
Jeff:
French has some interesting things… Italy really hasn’t had a …
Casey:
Well French Canadian or French?
Jeff:
French, they’ve got some interesting things.
Casey:
Well not Italy, and the Egyptian programs aren’t scaring anything. I don’t know if other parts of the world are having this problem we’re having in America, i would wager these days, but I feel like there’s, for quite some time, there were a good cross section of hard core folks coming through in the American Side of things where I wasn’t that nervous when I was 25 about whether or not there would be someone when I retire at 59 to replace me or whatever the fuck. I’m kind of very scared about that now. From the US, I think we’re looking at a group of people who can only use very high level, not very complicated things.
Jeff:
We’re going to lose our thing. That will move elsewhere.
Casey:
I’m just hoping that we either fix that, or Europe won’t have this problem. They have… the dude’s outrage, one thing I do think is a positive of that attitude, is that if you keep people trying to make 4k games, they won’t be these shithead java people who can’t program their way out of a paper bag and ending up like in a situation in the future where no one can fix the… we’re at a situation where the whole internet comes to a halt in the US because no one knows how to disassemble the router code. The last person who could program a chip in assembly language died. That’s a real world we might end up in, right?
Jeff:
I think we will see the next gen of low level people come from Europe, Russia, and Israel..
Casey:
I’m getting that feeling. I think we shot our load of those people. The US had this frontloaded set of people who are now in the mid-27, 28, or 30 to 50 year old window.
Jeff:
The 30+
Casey:
The 30+ window of all these people who really knew how to get in there and figure out what was going on… that’s gone now. I don’t see it coming.
Jeff:
I don’t think that’s coming from here so much. What I don’t see from other countries is where we’ll see that weird creative… not creative thing, but attitude thing that American companies bring to creative entertainment. Like Hollywood movies are not just better crafted, they seem to be a little more in tune with what people want to consume. I think American games are like that too. I don’t know… I don’t see that moving yet. But I keep thinking that Bollywood will take over Hollywood just because they kick out more movies, they get better faster that hasn’t hit. I don’t see the whole British thing where the games are different, awesome, and crazy in the early 90s and late 80s where that’s where a lot of creative games, art, and creative sided games where coming from. A lot of those people moved to the US and are working on games here. I don’t know where that next thing is coming from yet. Japan, maybe.
Casey:
They are having trouble. They haven’t been hitting it the way they were.
Jeff:
No. they can’t. they are running into the problem of the way they develop things doesn’t scale. It just doesn’t. the games are getting bigger and I don’t know where that will come from if not the US. Maybe somewhere will surprise us. Maybe it is, maybe it comes from.. maybe that’s the renaissance of the comeback of Europe.
Casey:
To be clear, I don’t give a flying fuck of American has anything to do with it. I’m happy if Europe or whatever. I just hope that it happens. I feel like my sort of conventional wisdom approach is that I feel like Europe is still their teenagers are thinking it’s cool to be able to program something in 4k. So the reason I’m defending this guy, without seeing him, so I’m not defending him. But the concept is I do think if Europe is maintaining that momentum they should keep it. Don’t allow flash games if you don’t have competition. Someone needs to maintain some level so we have people that can build the next flash. Like, at some point the shit breaks and needs to get upgraded. It’s not where it needs to be, it’s not done. And even if it was it has to be maintained.
Jeff:
Flash is interesting because we’re doing a flash product. It’s been interesting to watch that because the initial file format, and a lot of that you can tell there were some really hardcore dudes. It packed crazy insanity.
Casey:
Sean must have liked that.
Jeff:
You can appreciate that they really were going for it. But it’s 10 versions old, and now the way object mod and action…
Casey:
Those guys got bought out twice right? They got bought out by Macromedia… so the original dudes who packed those bits, they are in the Bahamas. They are done. Now you got some dudes, right? Just dudes programming.
Jeff:
Well it was funny. Hey this was awesome, maybe the file format is still awesome. The display is non-optimized for hardware. You want to make something new that’s hardware. But you can see that the action and JavaScript part of it… oh someone else took care of this action.
Casey:
Let’s Netscape it up.
Jeff:
That’s not the it should go. But it’s funny to see something in retro like that ,watching it accrete. I guess everything works like that. I know more and more at Intel and Microsoft, they are moving their hardcore stuff to Israel, Russia, and stuff like that.
Casey:
Maybe they will finally make improvements then. Certainly who did level of code, at Microsoft, who were good are gone. They are gone.
Jeff:
They are good. There’s an aesthetic where it’s more important that it be optimal at the expense of whether it’s maintainable. We’ve had some Russians work on our code doing some porting, and stuff like that. it’s usually pretty read only code unfortunately right now. They don’t have a lot of the… if anything it feels like early 80s code. Optimized but yet not quite got , “oh wait, this is something we should be doing. Yes it’s faster but it hurts the way…” It won’t work, and you know when you’re not here that’s not good. Here’s some things we can trust the compilers for and here’s things we don’t.
Casey:
It’s hard out there for a coder.
Jeff:
For the low level guys I think you’ve got infinite employment, is one good thing.
Casey:
I do feel like there’s a certain amount of job security that comes with it, but I wish I was more scared. The more scared I was about my ability to earn money, the better I feel like the shape the industry is in. the fact that I am so unconcerned about having the remotest chance, makes me concerned.
Jeff:
that just means that you’re erotic. Not wrong or right.
Casey:
it’s a bad sign right? I shouldn’t be able to pay as little attention as I do and still come back and go, “What the fuck are you guys doing?” That shouldn’t happen. Knowledge should have passed me by. It’s hovering like a shit cloud.
Jeff:
The frustrating thing for me right now is I keep waiting for things to unify, even on the graphics side a little bit. Like I was looking forward to Far Cry guys’s big paper on their unified lighting system. If you read their existing papers, it’s how, “Here’s how Far Cry does it’s lighting.” You open the PDF and it’s 37 crazy hacks that stack up on top of each other. Then you realize, “This is what it takes. This is insane. This is an insane number of things that are completely separate systems to get something.” I was looking forward to their cigarette paper this year, where here’s our whole radiosity based lighting system. These are the next four hacks that you still need…
Casey:
That we added on to the other 32.
Jeff:
It’s like you can still do new things with it. But it’s still just one…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
I don’t want it to be ray tracing, but fuck it might be ray tracing.
Casey:
I don’t know how I feel about that stuff because those are not problems I’m not interested in. I’m just not. As much as I do work with rendering, I think about it from very different perspectives than I think a lot of people do. It’s because I come from the art side more, ironically because I’m a programmer.
Jeff:
I want to enter that market, or where we’re at, enter a market of where we’re doing market stuff when it unifies. I’m not interested in the 50 hats days. We’re not their CP Wise. Now with Qaeda and things like Leerby who might be able to write something that uses rendering hardware in a way to bag the whole way we do this…
Casey:
Like a light cut system or something?
Jeff:
Yeah and just fuck the way.. you have to redo the whole pipeline now because you can’t use the way we export, and animate and stuff. It would have to be upgraded at the same time. So fortunately we have that product laying around. I keep thinking it’s 2 years away, but it’s been 2 years away since early 2000. One of the early game techs, I thought, “We’re going to see this all converge.” It still hasn’t done it. It’s so frustrating. I hope it doesn’t end up being we just add. The engine in 2020 is 800 hacks and not..
Casey:
I just look at from a very different perspective. This is just another reason why I’m not really cut out to be in the game industry. All of this shit is like oh we’re moving the lights around, or whatever. Why are you moving the lights around? I put them there for a reason. That’s what the scene looks like… don’t move the camera.. don’t move the lights. Game developers come from this weird perspective where games are about people moving around. Stuff isn’t… most art… people stay in one place. They don’t move around. We can’t have an industry forever that’s all about people moving around. That is just bad. It’s a bad sign. Stop moving the lights, stop moving the people. Stay in one place and concentrate on getting them to act. For Fuck’s Sake!
Jeff:
Casey’s thing is stop moving everything around and make your characters act.
Casey:
It solves all the problems. It solves all the problems that most people are spending all their time on. You don’t need a visibility solution because the camera doesn’t move. You don’t need a lighting solution because the light’s don’t move. Right? No one spends any time on animation and that’s the most important thing. Instead, they spend all their time working on things that don’t have any effect on the actual presentation of what’s happening. It’s like stop moving shit. Leave everything where it is.
Jeff:
Casey Says, “Game developers, leave everything alone.” Just set it down…
Casey:
90% of what any player does when they play a video game is move their character. That is the least interesting thing anyone could ever want to move.
Jeff:
We’ve not moved in 8 hours of this podcast. Stop moving.
Casey:
The fact we’ve built our entire input devices around being able to move a character, right? It’s just like stop it. Give some more meaningful interaction to what you’re doing instead of where to walk. Right? Watch someone play Zelda or something, or Mario. Or landmark titles. Gears of War, I don’t know what. Whatever the fuck. Most of the time you’re walking. And if you’re not walking, you’re shooting or swinging a sword. That’s it. So get that shit out of there, and you wouldn’t have to worry about all these technological problems anymore. Right? If the lights stayed in one place, don’t carry a torch. No one ever carries a torch. That’s a weird shot if someone carries a torch.
Jeff:
You know the problem with that though is, the obvious problem is the rest of the problems are so fucking hard, and graphics is so easy. I’d rather focus on the torch carrying because it’s hard, but not impossible. Not as hard as, “hey my character facial stuff is really good so I can convey emotion. But the player keeps walking away.” I guess you lock it down. You don’t let them walk.
Casey:
I’m going to up the anty right here. It’s not that much of an anty, at all, coming from me. But I’ll put my money where my mouth is. I will only ever, ever make one game that involves moving a character.
Jeff:
That’s not your next one, because he doesn’t move. That’s not what you do in that game. You’ll have one game in your mind’s eye, long term plan..
Casey:
Ever. I’ll only make one game where you control the characters walking around. I promise, once. One time, ever.
Jeff:
It’s not the next game because that game doesn’t have… there’s locality but you don’t walk it around.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
That was a guarantee to you listeners, that I’m not going to make you walk around shit.
Casey:
I will never do that except one time. I will do it one time and never again.
Jeff:
You’re going to play the one movement card.
Casey:
I will do it one time, I think it’s worth it one time. There is something I want to do with moving a character, because there are so many games where all you do is walk. I want to do that with one thing, but only once.
Jeff:
While we’re doing the animated series which is pre written fiction obviously, what’s kind of funny about that is that nothing in all the fiction that we write every involves us going. It’s like no, the characters are talking to each other.
Casey:
That’s what I’m trying to say. It’s stupid. I think the whole concept that game are based around motion is dumb and should stop. It’s not interesting.
Jeff:
Especially because most of the players would rather not move.
Casey:
It hurts your fucking thumb. Half the time you hold the joystick up… I remember one time when Microsoft was talking to developers about what to do for their next joy stick. I was like, “listen. I’ll tell you what you can do right now for your joy stick. Make the reentering be variable, controlled by the game.” You can have two types of joysticks in the old days we had single ones that you could change the retention on the return to center. If you turned it down, it would stay, if you turned it up it would come back to the center. I was like, “Make that controllable by the game.” So it’s a force feedback that returns it to the center or not that’s on the game. Then I’m like that way when the person pushes forward and they are running, you turn it off on the game, so they can just leave it. There’s no tension pulling on the stick. I guarantee you 90% of the fucking games that will ship with this fucking thing involve that…
Jeff:
What about Nintendo thumb syndrome… that doctor is not going to be able… he’s not going to have his Nintendo thing.
Casey:
They didn’t make that joystick. Happy birthday. I tried to help you. It didn’t work.
Jeff:
That is awesome.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You have anything else you want to cover? We started almost 8 hours ago. Yeah. We’ve probably 6 hours in the can. Then we’ll break these up…
Casey:
There’s more stuff here, but I think we are good for now. Don’t you think?
Jeff:
Yeah. I want to say thanks to everyone. If you want to send links, we will try to respond. We stack them up.
Casey:
We got through a lot of links.
Jeff:
Also the other thing we do, we’ll try to take a break so we can focus on the fictional things we need to work on and other stuff we need to do. But the other thing we’ll always do, is reserve the right that in an emergency, an emergency podcast, when we see something we need to talk about this. You need to send us a link so we know when we’re in an emergency situation.
Casey:
If we need to be in an emergency situation we will execute the podcast.
Jeff:
We should say thanks to all the listeners, everyone we’ve talked to, Dave Wuan..
Casey:
We couldn’t have done it without you.
Jeff:
Who else?
Casey:
Whoever the hell the 1000 people are that download this show.
Jeff:
The thousand people download the show all the time, and we appreciate all of you. Thanks for listening. Come back. We’ll still try to do things. We’ll continue tweeting so there’ll be things on the twitter at all times. Also on the Facebook are going to be active and you can still stay on… there will be occasional stuff that we’ll put on the Jeff and Casey show if we see something funny, or a funny video, or a little thing we want to put out. We’re still going to. So make sure you do that. thanks everyone because we enjoy doing these. Maybe when we have caught up with all of our shit, we’ll be back.
Casey:
There will be a season 3. Will there be a season 3, that’s the question.
Jeff:
When we get through Season 1 of the show…
Casey:
Here’s what I’ll say. If there’s a new version, like a full new version of the bink video codec available and you’re playing Sushi Bar Samurai. That would be a series in 3. That’s when you’ll see it. But until you see those until horses of the apocalypse ride out into the wild blue yonder, you’re probably in trouble.
Jeff:
The rapture has not happened. You can still drive your car, your pets are safe.
Casey:
They say she comes on a pale bank.
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casey muratori
the jeff and casey show - season 2 - episode 26
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