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The Technician
No Imperfections Noted
The Jeff and Casey Show
Jeff and Casey Time
Casey Muratori
Seattle, WA
The Revolutionary War was Fought on Rum
"The dip is feces."
Original air date: November 10th, 2009
Topics. Launch parties. Drugs. Cores. Terrorism. Rum. Ireland. The Revolutionary War. Lithuania. World of Warcraft. Windows 7. Marriage. Launch videos. Heroin. Bathroom rules.
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Transcript
Jeff:
Hey everybody. Welcome to the Jeff and Casey show. This week’s episode is another part of the huge mega cast and we talked a little bit about Windows and Linux and a few technical things like that. So, let’s jump right in.
Jeff:
Hey everybody. We are back again with a little.
Casey:
Took little breather.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
We’re moving in to, we’re I don’t know how many hours we’re in.
Casey:
Now that’s interesting. Did you just say, “”Casey, bathroom break.“”
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
So, I feel like I’m the one who can say when bathroom breaks were taken.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
You are always like too squeamish. Like if I had said oh I was just coming back from the bathroom you’d be like don’t say it. That’s what you would have said. So how are you okay with saying that just then?
Jeff:
You just can’t say details. If you go to the bathroom and I’m not anywhere near the bathroom. . .
Casey:
All right.
Jeff:
. . .it’s all right. That’s the thing.
Casey:
I’m just interested to know. Yeah.
Jeff:
No, I’m just saying.
Casey:
All right. Okay.
Jeff:
It’s also because, you know, you have to because you go to the bathroom more than a pregnant woman. Like I think its the. . .
Casey:
How often does a preg-. . .
Jeff:
. . .you’re not used to drinking this caffeine and like it goes through you.
Casey:
No. I generally drink a lot of liquids and go to the bathroom often. Like I cycle liquids hardcore.
Jeff:
I see you cycle. All right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
No. Let’s stop before this. . .
Casey:
That said, that last one was not. . .
Jeff:
Oh noooo. God damn it.
Casey:
You knew I was going to try and go there. You knew I was going to try to get there.
Jeff:
I’m looking at my microphone and that’s the one place in a long record here where mine matches yours, what yours is normal.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You know what? In the middle of this podcast I’m going to turn you down a hair.
Casey:
Why would you do, why would do something like that?
Jeff:
Because you’re so much louder.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I normalize any way so. . .
Casey:
Yeah, I know.
Jeff:
. . . it should equal, but you’re awful clipping.
Casey:
You’re off. You’re basically inviting disaster. Why it was slipping in the first place was unclear. Anyway, back to the show.
Jeff:
Okay, back to the show. So, we’re going to do a few more mails. We’re cruising through so. . .
Casey:
We’ve done a lot of links.
Jeff:
We’re thinking, we’re thinking about nowadays it’s probably October. You know, it’s a crisp fall.
Casey:
It probably is October by the time you get to this broadcast. Yeah.
Jeff:
You know, maybe Halloween has happened. You know, there’s Christmas decorations up. Maybe we’re planning Thanksgiving plans.
Casey:
Yep, something holiday wise.
Jeff:
You know, it’s been rainy a little bit.
Casey:
Right. Second terrorist attack on the U.S. has happened.
Jeff:
Yeah, the new terrorist attack that happened in October.
Casey:
Exactly.
Jeff:
You know, we will never forget.
Casey:
We will never forget that. Proactively, obviously it hasn’t happened yet in Jeff and Casey time but yes.
Jeff:
Right. To the, you know, FBI who’s carefully analyzing this.
Casey:
Oh right. Listen to voice print analysis. Yeah. That was actually a joke. I don’t know if you’re allowed to make those in this country any more.
Jeff:
No, I don’t think that. It’s not allowed.
Casey:
Probably not.
Jeff:
We were talking about this. I was thinking about this, this weekend actually whether if we had another terrorist attack, that’s it for America. Like freedom would lock down. They would be like all it would take is one, not even a big one, like something bad happened where it would have to be a big, flamboyant thing. But if something like that happens again, that’s the end of civil liberties. They’d lock this place down. No more fucking passports to travel abroad. It’s like it’s on lock down. Sorry folks. You can’t say shit. Patriot Act Two would make the first one look, it doesn’t matter if there’s a liberal in office, they would lock this shit down. We’d be fucked.
Casey:
We’ll I’m a little bit concerned about that too to some degree because I think that perhaps the people who might commit a terrorist act in anticipation of that happening. I don’t think they fully think through the consequences of a locked down United States.
Jeff:
It’s fuck everybody.
Casey:
Like the United States is a really dangerous country. I mean it’s that fucking simple. And like keeping its populace free and fucking around with television and like whatever the fuck is very important. Like. . .
Jeff:
We pretty much. Right. We have some hateful mother fucker’s here. And really you don’t want to rile them. And I’m not saying like go America. I’m saying it in the opposite way, like they are some scary fuckers here and you don’t want. . .
Casey:
We are a war like nation. Like that definitely true. Yeah.
Jeff:
We’ve have been drifting without the Soviet Union. We have been adrift. You don’t want to be on the opposite side of that.
Casey:
No. And so I’m concerned about that because I do agree that it’s possible that you may be able to hasten the collapse of the United States in this fashion. But by hasten that means turn something that would have taken 150 years into something that will take 25 but leave a nuclear wasteland across the globe. That was not a good bargain. Right? It’s like that was a bad idea. Better to let this fire burn out slowly than erupt in to one gigantic fireball that takes out a huge amount of collateral damage and that is basically what a second terrorist attack would do. Right? It’s like bad fucking news for everyone? Right? Yeah.
Jeff:
I don’t know if they think that far ahead but that’s a scary thing.
Casey:
Yeah, I don’t know if they do or not.
Jeff:
We need to get like our dual citizenship somewhere else just in case. I’ve been thinking about that. Like you might need some stuff but you know what? They’ve done crazy shit now, you can’t move around. You can’t like, they don’t want you moving like your assets around. They don’t want you holding assets in other countries and you’re like oh wait the government’s fucked and social security’s screwed and like okay, we need to make taxes 99%. That’s just what will happen. Like you can’t, you can’t do it. There’s no such thing as sovereign banking any more. It’s all over.
Casey:
Yes, buy an Irish descendant quickly or one of those EU countries that has the like lineage based citizenship. Lithuania maybe? I’m trying to think of which ones they are but like that’s what you need to do quickly. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah. Irish isn’t going to do it for me.
Casey:
Whatever. Lithuanian. Lithuanian would, I believe, I could be very wrong, but I feel, I think in my head that Lithuania has a descendant based citizenship program.
Jeff:
Hot girls there?
Casey:
They are pretty close to the Russian description you gave. Like blue eyes, blond hair, like, I think Lithuania may be good for you, Jeff.
Jeff:
Right. You can’t do the Iri-, the redheads, I don’t know about that.
Casey:
That’s why I’m offering you another option. Now I could be wrong. We’re going to have to go to the CIA factbook or thing or whatever the fuck. Right? Whatever would say whatever the citizenship requirements are there but yes.
Jeff:
I think you just access that website nowadays. You’re looking, you’re getting some questions.
Casey:
I see, just don’t to the CIA factbook.
Jeff:
It’s getting crazy. Anyway, another digression. But we’re feeling a good six hours. Now we were shooting for eight, but then we had a meeting about the animated show. It’s looking good people. Hang in there with us. And then we had to watch the Sea Quest which burned an hour. But it was worth it, had a good time.
Casey:
Yes. Sea Quest is always worth it. Whenever you put on a Sea Quest DSV ladies and gentlemen, you are looking good.
Jeff:
Now one thing we were going to do this time, and we realized you know what, we’re just too tired to do this justice, is we’ve had a lot of people, and we’ve touched on this subject before, is the retarded-ness of the singularity. And Doug Sharp asked us to do it. That is awesome.
Casey:
And we will.
Jeff:
And we will. We’re going to come back. We were going to do it tonight but. . .
Casey:
We just don’t feel like we’re up to it at this late of an hour. It’s kind of an, yeah.
Jeff:
And this is the, I mean this is, we’re going to take a break but you know, we retain our privilege to have emergency Jeff and Casey show podcasts. When it’s like, you know, one of the things that I want to talk about today and that we need to talk about definitely is the new Windows 7 commercials.
Casey:
Right. Well, here’s one thing I was going to say about that is, to be fair, right, Ray Cursweld, who’s the guy who they sent the links to for the singularity, right? He’s like his list of things that he has done reads like a nearly, if they had put like, for example, the Windows operating system, like DOS on there, would have read like a list of all the things that didn’t work, right? Like synthesizer base, like, analog based synthesizing for sound. Basically why did 80’s music sound like shit? Ray Cursweld. Text to speech. Optical character recognition. It was like all this shit that doesn’t work.
Jeff:
This litany of shit that sounds futuristic but then you’re like wait, none of that shit worked until recently and none of it’s based on those techniques any more. Most of it is different techniques. It’s not machine based learning. It’s not all this bullshit that he was like arrrr.
Casey:
Anyway, but ignoring that, so we’re going to have to study that for a while to give you what I’m sure you are expecting, which is a studied and learned discussion of the singularity.
Jeff:
We will come back to singularity. And it’s okay because we have until 2029 so we’ll be back there.
Casey:
Right. Unfortunately if we have not given you a thorough dissection of the singularity by 2029 there will be a robot that is running Jeff and Casey together inside its circuitry that can produce an MP3.
Jeff:
That can take care of it.
Casey:
Exactly. No of course, the MP3 will still have, when the patent extension act of 2015 passes, MP3, it won’t be able to release that MP3 to anyone, obviously, but. . .
Jeff:
And also it would be copyrighted to the Jeff and Casey robot so it can get residuals.
Casey:
And it will control how it is distributed certainly. You’ll be able to listen to 30 seconds of it.
Jeff:
Yeah, little clips. But it will be good so just hang in there for that.
Casey:
Yeah, so it’s fine.
Jeff:
So let’s talk real briefly, and I mean we beat up on Microsoft a lot.
Casey:
Not as much as we should, but yes.
Jeff:
Not as much as we should but we still beat them up a lot. We especially beat up on when they do these awesome fucking videos that they do. And at some point you wonder when someone’s going to come in there and say this.
Casey:
Like that awesome Bruce Springsteen video that they did that time.
Jeff:
You know, if I was like an engineer over there and you’re like stuck and are like I am embarrassed about all of this shit that they’re doing, I would fucking put a bug in the camera capture code.
Casey:
They did. They tried. It’s called direct video, dude. Have you ever tried to fucking get the camera to work on Windows. It doesn’t work. They tried. They tried that.
Jeff:
They got to step away from the video camp.
Casey:
They use Macintosh’s. This is my point. The people who are making those videos are using Macs. They did that. There is no way to produce a video on a PC.
Jeff:
Right. And so.
Casey:
What are they supposed to do? They can’t go over to Apple, right?
Jeff:
Well maybe they should.
Casey:
Well maybe they should.
Jeff:
I mean they did like, like look dude, you’ve got to put something in Quicktime. If you see copyright Microsoft, anything, you’ve got to shut that shit down. And it would be better because their stock price would go up because these are God damn embarrassing videos.
Casey:
They are very embarrassing. Now I haven’t seen the videos that you’re talking about. What videos are you talking about?
Jeff:
Well, why don’t you go to um, gee, I’d type in “”Windows 7 launch party“”, just type it in. So what this is, is Microsoft wants you to have a party. It’s a party for Windows 7. Okay. And they’ve set up a site.
Casey:
Now here. Jeff, there is a problem. The search term that you had me put in, Windows 7 launch party. All of the top hits are parities of the Window’s 7 launch party video. So it’s already been, all the parties have taken over the top Google rankings.
Jeff:
And it’s hard to. Like you guys are hearing this a month later from when we’re saying this so this is going to be really tired by now. And so we’re not going to try to do the real thing but holy shit, they need to stop. The idea was, and this is probably long after the launch parties happened, and which maybe perhaps the universe had ended because of these parties. But the idea that you’d have a party for Windows, like seriously? That’s the party? That’s your party?
Casey:
So I haven’t seen these. Can you explain to me what it is?
Jeff:
They want you to throw a party and like one of the ladies is like oh you’ll have your friends here and what I’ve done is taken lots of pictures and uploaded them and she goes and shows the cool things you can do in Windows 7. One of them is paid. She has an extended thing on how like you can draw on your pictures in paint. And you know what else? You can draw a text and oops I made a mistake? Control Z. Her Windows 7 demo is MS Paint.
Casey:
With the undo. Which by the way is one level of undo I think in the code. Did they extend that in Windows 7 perhaps?
Jeff:
I have no idea. I’m just like holy shit. And they have this crazy party where the other lady like makes some video and they show the video and they like crop something out and then that’s like Windows 7 and it’s like, first off they sound like automatons because they are not human. Okay, these are aliens that like ingested the actors and they’re wearing human skin.
Casey:
Okay, it’s like, it’s like, what was that? Invasion of the body snatchers?
Jeff:
It is creepy.
Casey:
It’s like, oh he’s in his Windows 7 cocoon. He’ll be out in a second.
Jeff:
Yeah, there’s something fucked. I mean, these people are not human. They are scary fuckers. And they talk about oh oh. Now there’s one awesome one where they say here’s how to plan your Windows 7 party, right. First, install Windows 7.
Casey:
First, five years ago, start thinking about the features you want in your Windows 7 party. Right, yeah. It’s like, it flashes backwards.
Jeff:
Have a party, have another party and then that party is a disaster.
Casey:
Yeah, I was going to say it flashes backwards, and you’re cleaning up after this party that was a fucking nightmare. Nobody showed up, first of all. Right? You’ve got all this food that“,
Jeff:
And then we try to tell ‘em the party’s good and we call that the Mojave Party.
Casey:
The dip is like, feces. It’s a bunch of vegetables with feces in the center and you’re like, nobody seemed to like it.
Jeff:
Nobody like the shit dip. The shit dip was not a big win. So step one on this.
Casey:
Remember that time we tried to video tape me using vista and we couldn’t show it?
Jeff:
We have a video of you installing windows vista, and it was too awful. You were too angry.
Casey:
I was swearing like a marine.
Jeff:
Did you end up getting in installed?
Casey:
So here’s the thing, we wanted to have an episode of The Jeff and Casey Show where I installed windows, so we set up a video camera, this is true, I’m not making any of the up, I had never used windows vista before, and I never will. So what we were gonna do is capture my first hour of using vista starting from when I have to upgrade a machine. So we had a machine, I wasn’t gonna install it on my real machine obviously, so we had a machine, we don’t care if we burn it, so we were just like, alright, were gonna install windows vista. We install Windows Vista, I am doing this right and I’ve got the camera pointed on me, and it was like the most train wreck possible experience you could imagine. First of all, I got to a part where I had gotten the installers UI into a state where it couldn’t advance. It was impossible to get through.
Jeff:
You minimized the window.
Casey:
I minimized a window and it wouldn’t come back because they didn’t do that, and the only way we actually ended up getting out of was Jeff, I had to ask you, Jeff can you think of anything? You’re like, “Try this keyboard shortcut, maybe its still in there.” And it worked.
Jeff:
Alt-Tab brought it up.
Casey:
So right from the start it was terrible. I tried to read the EULA, and the EULA required a web browser which was not installed at that point. So it had a link to the rest of the EULA that you cant click on, it won’t open the page because it hasn’t installed a net driver, that was awesome. We got to the point where it was actually running, and I was trying to use the widget bar and shit was flying all over the place, and going away, and opening up pages that didn’t work, it was awesome. And the crowning moment was I tried to burn a DVD and it hung, hard hung. Not blue screen just full on hang. No mouse cursor, no nothing.
Jeff:
You were trying to put a couple of JPGs on a disk. Boom, I’m done.
Casey:
And I was like, that’s it, walked away. That’s the end of this we’re done.
Jeff:
We laughed, but were like, this is too bad, this is too horrible.
Casey:
I was actually having a horrible time.
Jeff:
You weren’t being funny, you were just like, oh for fucks, yeah it got pretty brutal. Anyway.
Casey:
To be honest, I think I have the same mentality as Dave Cuttler or somebody who throws the monitor through the wall. That’s kind of me. I never get that upset about stuff in personal life, but business things I lose my shit in a fucking heartbeat. I’m just like, what is this crap?
Jeff:
It was bad.
Casey:
So I just lost it immediately and never regained it.
Jeff:
We have it somewhere but it will probably will never be seen. Anyway, they give you some instructions to run your party. Step one is you have to install Windows 7 for the party.
Casey:
There’s no party without Windows 7, that’s just a given, that’s just a fucking given.
Jeff:
What they do is they go, no remember to do this a couple days before your party. Because even they’re like, you can’t install Windows 7 the day of the party because your machine is gonna be fucked up. You’re gonna have to go somewhere to fix your shit, and you’re like, awesome! How does this happen. It’s this horrible thing but yeah I love that.
Casey:
So when they say, “Here’s how to plan your Windows 7 launch party” What they mean is, “Week after launch party” because there’s no way to get the disk and install it a head of time. That is fucking fantastic Jeff. That is fantastic.
Jeff:
Now I don’t know what the deal is. They have this thing where they’re working with some site that runs parties, some crazy party thing. And you are supposed to sign up if you are having a Windows launch party.
Casey:
That has Nolan Bushnell written all over it, but OK.
Jeff:
They have this map of the United States and you can highlight this shit, and in Ohio there’s like 18,000 windows launch parities. In Washington, this was a couple days ago there’s probably a lot more, but in Washington there were like 58.
Casey:
Those 58 are all high level executives at Microsoft who are like, “We are having a party, Gates sent the memo.” Well not Gates anymore but Ballmer sent the memo.
Jeff:
They have pictures of some of the people holding the party, crepo dudes number of RSVPS 0. This guys like, “Hey I’m having a launch party, everyone come down to my launch party.”
Casey:
“This Windows 7 launch party is gonna be alllll ladies.”
Jeff:
It’s just again like, whatever, and already it’s been a week, but put down the video camera Microsoft. It’s never gone well.
Casey:
Never, ever, ever. Not once. Not one time.
Jeff:
The parodies are terrific. The parodies of all the thing we did with Good/No Good where we beeped out one of our conversations, so they changed the context of what the conversation is, and they’re all really very funny and they’re really good. But oh my god, and there’s 100s of them.
Casey:
As evidence by the fact that I can’t find the original video.
Jeff:
They’ve made 100s on YouTube of all of these videos. And they didn’t make 3 or 5, there’s 100s of these on YouTube and they’re horrible. Fuck. And let me just say one thing, Windows 7 is vista people. It’s the same thing OK.
Casey:
I haven’t used it.
Jeff:
Well I have.
Casey:
Oh you’re running it right now, I know that.
Jeff:
It’s like exactly the same thing. They let you turn the UAC down so that the screen doesn’t go black. It still asks you all the time. It’s still if you don’t turn it off, you have random crashes. I just turn it off. Im exactly where I was at XP, I have a few extra functions, there are some thread things that I like for our stuff.
Casey:
In the kernel you mean?
Jeff:
In the kernel. Everything else is shit. My fucking start bar is a big black hole.
Casey:
I saw that, what happened there? When you click on that start menu, it’s just all blank. What going on there?
Jeff:
You pin shit in there. You right click and say pin. I didn’t pin anything so it’s just a hole.
Casey:
It is pretty awesome. It’s the weirdest looking graphical element I’ve ever seen. It’s just a big empty hole.
Jeff:
I still have the thing that I had on Vista installs where shit just goes to sleep grinding the disk. I look in the process manager, I have no idea what it’s hitting. There’s weird things like, if you don’t have a net cable connected to your machine, the machine slows down so much when you type, it just sits there for 10 seconds and then blasts all your keys in. So on my machine, it’s a server motherboard so there’s two net cards, I just leave the other one there with nothing plugged into it. Can’t do that, you have to go in and disable it.
Casey:
It’s like slamming that card going, “Is there a cable? Is there a cable? Is there a DNS? What’s the IP address on that thing? Is there no IP address? What’s going on?” Is that what it’s doing?
Jeff:
I have 16 cores. How the fuck they used all 16 cores to check the net cable.
Casey:
One core checks the nutext and the other 15 are like, “Uh, can we issue a kernel call?” and it’s like, “no you cant.”
Jeff:
Still the same thing of, one of the things I got so annoyed with those windows 7 commercials, and I’m sitting there on Facebook thinking about something smarty pants to type so someone can link to it. I’m holding the shit key down, and I’m holding for more than the prescribed 5 seconds so the sticky keys pop up and goes, “Would you like to turn on this?” It’s like, no. I never, ever have wanted to turn that on, and the sticky keys prompt is invert question so you have to read it, because if you hit it the wrong way then you turn it on and then you’re like, “Where the fuck do I turn this off.” Is it like Gilligan’s Island where you hold the shift key down another 5 and then he like, regains his memory and I get my keys back? I hit the right one and still, this has happened since they put sticky keys in, if you cancel sticky keys, whatever key triggered the sticky key is stuck on until you tap it a couple times. It’s been 7 years. All the way since XP, I can’t remember when it came.
Casey:
It was at least 2k.
Jeff:
It’s got the awesome thing of, hey in XP you hit windows update, it goes to a webpage, it takes a few seconds then pops up, after asking you to install 8 million things. But now it says, windows update, and it sits there for 10 minutes. It’s not a webpage anymore, it’s a native application that takes 10 minutes, the other one took 5 seconds. I don’t know what it’s doing.
Casey:
I don’t think you want to know.
Jeff:
Fucking genuinely advantaging me right up the cornhole, I have no idea what’s going on.
Casey:
There is a genuine advantage isn’t there? Well I am pleased to say that I have converted over everything but my main machine to Linux and the main machine is getting converted soon. End of this project baby, were done. I’m never touching a windows product again. It’s done.
Jeff:
I have Linux on a couple of my machines and its even more frustrating to me than that. I Want XP forever but XP.
Casey:
But XPs a piece of shit too. It blows.
Jeff:
It’s better than Linux right now. Linux will catch up; it’s not very good right now. You still don’t have the things in Linux even that you have under XP for like thread measuring and stuff that I want. And I don’t like, we have all the people that say, “Linux is threading primitives are better, they’re not, they’re worse.”
Casey:
But people said it was better? I never heard that before but OK.
Jeff:
They love the conditional waits, and there’s a whole bunch of problems with those and you can’t sleep on multiple. The idea of having a handle you can wait a lot of different things is good.
Casey:
We can have a related argument to that which is, I’m not prepared to talk about the threading in Linux because I don’t have any experience in it. But one thing I will say, fork as an API is actually very well designed, which is odd, because originally I would probably not have said that. 10 Years ago me probably wouldn’t have said that. It would have been like, “No, create process is better API” And now a days after having looked at them both and thought about them carefully, its actually no, fork is not just better, its significantly better API design. That’s not the same as saying that it ends up being performant right? In my mind performance isn’t that big a deal there because threads are for performance things not fork and create process. But I just wanted to point that out because; interestingly enough I think fork is the correct API and create process is incorrect. So that’s interesting.
Jeff:
I don’t especially like the default way that fork inherits the.
Casey:
Memory space?
Jeff:
Not just the memory space, it doesn’t inherit the memory space right?
Casey:
Yes it does. Jeff; Oh it does, OK. I thought it just inherited the files, environment, those kind of things.
Casey:
It’s everything.
Jeff:
I’m not a super fan of that, but it doesn’t bother me that badly. How does it inherit the memory space?
Casey:
Copy on write. That’s why the processes have that shit. That’s why I think they even have those bits in the first place.
Jeff:
How do you fork when you don’t want that to happen? Is there a way to do that?
Casey:
That’s why I said, after considering it more, having used it more now, because now that I have stuff on Linux, I maintain some Linux code based side things. Like, the interesting part about it is, fork is the API that is orthogonal. Because all your other APIs still work across a process boundary, which is really kind of important, and Ill kind of explain what I mean by that right? In create process, you are essentially having to feed forward all of the data and operations you might need to do through the create process call. So they’ve got some big ass fucking structure you’ve gotta fill out that’s what do you want the standard input handle to be and the standard output handle and this, and that, and what are the security descriptors and blah blah blah, try to get as much of that shit in there as we can, if we forgot something, oh well, you’re just fucking screwed right? You hand all that to create process and the other process wakes up like some amnesiac going “Where the fuck am I?” And it gets all this stuff back. Fork is 100% orthogonal. You just call it, and now you have a second copy of your program with whatever state you had from before, you still got. At that point you can do all the changes that you want. You can change what your standard handle was, you can change what, you can do anything. You have all the data, and you can call all of the API calls that you wanted, and then either you can just keep running that executable if you want to go do something else, or you can make a call which is like, blow away all of my code stuff and replace it with this file, with this executable.
Jeff:
Well they sort of had to do that because that was their shitty threading model before they add Linux kernel threads right?
Casey:
And I doubt it’s a good idea for that. Meaning, its too heavy weight for that. Jeff; Yeah, you don’t want to have, they share the same memory space but the new process actually does have some different pages, so it has a different CR3 register on x86 which means, hey threading between those is TLB shoot downs and all that bullshit which is spendy.
Casey:
But before we go on, you’re with me with the fact like, API design wise it has a significant plus there.
Jeff:
Yeah I mean there’s something there that you can’t do under windows without doing a lot of it yourself. You can do all that shit.
Casey:
It’s just a lot of work. This API is like, we added one API, and now everything just works. That’s pretty smart.
Jeff:
Now one thing I don’t super like, I don’t super like how GDB handles that. Like when you’re debugging across that it’s awkward and weird. I’m just saying they make that a little difficult to debug.
Casey:
Sure. Well a lot of the debuggers on Linux are not swell. But anyway, so moving on.
Jeff:
There are some things, I can’t even remember how we got here.
Casey:
Windows 7
Jeff:
Yeah, Windows 7. All most everything that I don’t like about it I find there’s lots of thing in Linux I don’t like, I find it unresponsive, the user interface is I find more ridiculous and less consistent even than windows which is amazing. I still think that somebody just with some aesthetic sense needs to go through and fix Linux and I don’t think that’s an 80 person team, I think its maybe a 10 person team a year, 2 years to fix it. Because they’re mostly caught up functionality wise. They’ve still got some scaling problems in the kernel that they need to fix. They still have a lot of things on big machines where they have to go to these kind of co-kernel things where, like, you have kind of a kernel running on these 32 threads and another kernel running on here which helps in some stuff for memory paths and stuff.
Casey:
Well, you’re more of the expert on those kinds of things than I am so I’m not really in a position to know who’s doing better things thread wise, because I don’t do that kind of code.
Jeff:
I still find GCC really annoying and backwards and way slower on x86 code. It is getting better. If the debugger situation was better on Linux, I could make a better go at it. But we still compile all our shit and run on it. A lot of our stuff, I wrote a dll loader for Linux so most of our stuff works by loading our windows dlls or a custom compiled version of windows dll that doesn’t call any windows stuff, it acts just as an engine, and that works pretty well because you can test it, debug it on windows and just load it over there.
Casey:
I’m actually one of the few people in the world I guess who would prefer to run GDB than MSdev. So when I debug on Linux I’m like, “ahhh I can actually see what’s going on in my code.” Right? Because I run emacs as my editor. So it’s all integrated, my source files are showing me where it is, I can get my watch window in my editor, it all just works. Whereas in MSdev since I don’t use MSdev editor it’s like I always gotta alt-tab, and like, where was I. It feels better.
Jeff:
I can make the argument.
Casey:
You like it separate.
Jeff:
Well I think the debugger should be separate from the editor and I can argue that for almost an infinite amount of time.
Casey:
I don’t necessarily mind, I find that its nicer to have it there.
Jeff:
I don’t. I think it’s almost always bad, but that’s my personal preference. Because a lot of the guys here do like it that other way. I just find like, hey I’m forever editing a file by accident that I haven’t checked out, and I’m like, “no I don’t want to change that, I’m fucking debugging it and why are you accepting user input on this file.” And blah blah blah.
Casey:
Personal preference aside, I actually like those features are handy. I also like xwindows blows the shit out of remote desktop because it’s like, hey, I can have 3 different farm machines I can open editors on those three on one desktop, and there all together, like the cut and paste works between then as if they’re all in the thing. And I’m not going between giant windows with other drives and, which drive is that. It’s so nice. And I don’t know. They’ve got their shit like, the stuff I care about, Linux does way better than windows for me, and that’s just part of like, I guess my lineage or something. I used to use Linux when I was in high school too and I think that’s part of it. I like it. I feel at home there, and the only thing that pisses me off is the low quality of a lot of the server software like, qmail; piece of shit. Sendmail; piece of shit. Like these things are ass hacked. Apache; piece of shit. These things are just pieces of shit. PHP all that shit. That stuff is crap, but the things I actually use to develop code I actually kind of like. I like emacs, I like xwindows, so.
Jeff:
Yeah, I think, Remote desktop I like as a protocol way better than Xwindows, they just haven’t got thing. They need to make as a first class citizen the concept of running something; they already have the concept of like you can be logged into a remote machine and running it separate, multiple people logged into that machine with their own desktops and whatever.
Casey:
Did they fix that shit in Windows vista or 7? Cause in XP you can’t. In XP when someone else logs in with remote desktop, the person who’s currently logged in on the machine is logged out. Not logged out but their terminal shuts down.
Jeff:
That has always been fixed all the way back to XP but only on the server. So you have to have windows 2003.
Casey:
It’s like some pound find that they just turned off or whatever.
Jeff:
They don’t let you have two logins on in an XP machine, but the same build on windows 2003 would.
Casey:
They specifically did not want you doing it for whatever.
Jeff:
Well you can then like have one hopped up PC and one running it then everyone remote desktoping from their macs or whatever, maybe they didn’t want that or something. They have license issues there anyway, it’s supposed to cost you a client license to log in, a CAL.
Casey:
What?
Jeff:
Accounts, accounts on a user on that machine you have to have a CAL for somebody to login.
Casey:
On Server 2003?
Jeff:
As a remote desktop user of that machine.
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
Even now if you have like two windows machines, to connect to another windows machine counts as a user for that in, most people don’t buy licenses for this, but in the technical thing in like the corporate world, they buy CAL for all the servers that people touch.
Casey:
But in windows you can’t, like I was saying on the regular XP install, you can’t login at the same.
Jeff:
Like sharing a disk is the same thing. That counts if you connect to a machine. It used to just be called connections, now they’ve made it clear that web connections don’t count, but other ones do.
Casey:
Yet another reason I am fucking happy I am not using.
Jeff:
I just find it too frustrating, the other problem I have with Linux is, like, hey with windows, if it blue screens, it sucks, but I have some idea what going on. When Linux or MacOS crashes right now, I’m basically my dad. I have no clue what’s going on.
Casey:
Well Linux I’m actually in much better shape because I can watch the log and see what happened. But in Mac, I’m a baby. I’m a little helpless baby. If my Mac machine crashes, I have no idea what happened.
Jeff:
My guess is that maybe someday I’ll be able to switch and then run one of these as just a virtual machine, for that. But still right now I find the XP way, way, way better. And I have the latest Ubuntu and it drives me fucking insane.
Casey:
I’m pretty determined that I’m gonna move away from all software that requires a software locked license. Like that’s a major thing for me. Like, anything that installs a driver kind of think, like, I’ve had so many bad experiences with that, that that’s just a requirement.
Jeff:
You’re gonna have trouble with art packages. Because Gimps just not there yet.
Casey:
That’s what I use now and I’m totally fine with it.
Jeff:
Oh god. I cannot figure out Gimp. Like, as bad as Adobe Photoshop’s user interface is.
Casey:
Photoshop is better. Art Weaver and Gimp are not as good, that’s for sure.
Jeff:
No, Photoshop is terrible.
Casey:
They’re better than Gimp. And Photoshop’s better than Art Weaver which is the free Photoshop clone as well. But it’s just like, I’m done. I’m tired of paying a lot of money to people to treat me like a criminal. I have actually, since I’ve been an adult and had any money at all, I have never pirated a single, I’m like the only person I even fucking know who has paid for every single installed version of every piece of software I have ever used. Period.
Jeff:
And you have more trouble than anybody I know.
Casey:
And it has brought nothing but pain.
Jeff:
Rather than copying, you’re just gonna be like, fuck all you.
Casey:
So I’m like, you know what? I’m not using your shit anymore. I’m just not.
Jeff:
It will be interesting to see if you can pull it off or you’re able to build the toolset necessary to pull it off. Like for me, there’s so much.
Casey:
Well here’s the thing is, my productivity is not important. It doesn’t change anything, it is not gonna do anything in the world right? So maybe if I do this, it will force me to go fix a bunch of shit or make some software that people can use and release it for free, and just get rid of this shit like Photoshop that’s out there. Then I would actually be contributing something to the world. Whereas right now, that’s not happening. We basically got this podcast.
Jeff:
Stop it.
Casey:
And character animation software. There you go. Happy Birthday.
Jeff:
No, and you’re gonna have you’re game out this year.
Casey:
OK, and then we’ll waste more people’s time, with a game. So there you go.
Jeff:
Two thumbs up. That’s excellent. OK so.
Casey:
Of course I guess, why would making Photoshop help anyone because that’s just empowering other people to create entertainment that waste people’s time. But that aside.
Jeff:
I don’t think, wasting somebody’s time doesn’t matter to me as, doesn’t make things better or worse except, it just lets you keep perspective. It’s like, look, hey, no matter how self-important I think I am, like, I’m still making shit that entertains 12 year olds, like most of our podcasts.
Casey:
No, 35 year olds. Didn’t you get the members? Juan sent in the link. Earlier today, which is several weeks ago in the real world.
Jeff:
You know, those 35 year olds that they’re talking about, that makes it even worse somehow.
Casey:
Why does that make it worse?
Jeff:
Because they weren’t just 35 year olds, they were cave dwelling, depressed, overweight, yeah, like OK, awesome, yeah. I mean, if you were making World of Warcraft and like, people are getting married on your service and shit, that should either make you feel nothing, like, look that just doesn’t matter, which it doesn’t, or should make you feel bad. There’s no good that you should take from that.
Casey:
Why? Why not people getting married? What’s wrong with that?
Jeff:
Because it’s like, OK.
Casey:
That’s good, right?
Jeff:
No no no.
Casey:
You brought two people together. Maybe they’re an Orc and a Halfling or whatever, but they brought them together.
Jeff:
What if you sold heroin and two of your junkies met each other at some crack house that you sold at? You’re not really entitled to feel pride at that. Like, that’s what I’m saying like, you can feel nothing.
Casey:
Well let’s ask the question though. Would, perhaps somewhat pessimistic question, but the question is; what if these, to extend the analogy appropriately, what if these people were incapable of feeling love without heroin? That’s the way they were born.
Jeff:
OK. And you have drugged them up so that they think they’re in love?
Casey:
No no, it’s actually love.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
They’re just incapable of experiencing that without the heroin, then is it good?
Jeff:
Oh god damn it.
Casey:
You’re forcing me into a weird position here, but I’m trying to be in your analogy.
Jeff:
Uhhhh. If you’re saying that these people are so screwed up that they need heroin to feel love, uhhh god, I don’t know. Morally I guess it depends on how important you think love is versus self-awareness of those people right?
Casey:
And keep in mind that there is none of this fictional heroin that you have here doesn’t have any of the actually side effects in terms of like, getting arrested by the police or anything like that really. It’s not illegal, and it’s not expensive.
Jeff:
It just takes all your money.
Casey:
No it’s not expensive. It’s very inexpensive compared to heroin. It’s a fraction of the cost of heroin. It’s like hundreds of dollars a year rather than hundreds of thousands or tens of thousands.
Jeff:
Well cocaine maybe hundreds of thousands. Heroin, not nearly that.
Casey:
World of Warcraft is 15 dollars a month. I don’t think you’re gonna be supporting a very good heroin habit for 15 dollars a month. Now granted, I apologize for not knowing the current street price of heroin here in Seattle, but I’m imagining that it’s true.
Jeff:
And addictive drug that was inexpensive but allowed.
Casey:
That brought people together. Is that bad?
Jeff:
That brought people together that otherwise couldn’t get together.
Casey:
Basically I guess we can change this analogy to one that’s 100% accurate. That has no difference. Alcohol.
Jeff:
Oh well I think for sure if you sell alcohol, you’re not gonna feel good about the people you brought together.
Casey:
Because that’s very much like it. The marriage and certainly the birth rate in this country would plummet.
Jeff:
Alcohol is way worse though.
Casey:
I guess module of the drunk driving.
Jeff:
Alcohol is just, like, I would rather heroin be legal than alcohol.
Casey:
Oh really?
Jeff:
Alcohol is a nasty, every test they do they’re like, “bingo.”
Casey:
What do you mean?
Jeff:
For the people who are alcoholics, it hits a center of the brain, just nails it in a crazy, crazy way.
Casey:
But lots of people drink alcohol who aren’t alcoholics. In fact, the majority of people who drink alcohol are not alcoholics. A vast majority are not.
Jeff:
Well__ yeah. I don’t know, there’s a lot of functional people that get loaded every single weekend and go out and party that you wouldn’t consider alcoholic in the textbook definition. But like, would they kill themselves if alcohol was illegal the next weekend? Would that like, remove any happiness in their life? Probably, like, if they couldn’t drink during the football games.
Casey:
That’s why I’m saying it’s just like World of Warcraft. That why I’m saying the analogy is exact, except for the fact that the impaired physical ability that you might have after the alcohol is not true, but everything else is true.
Jeff:
I think you as the alcohol vender, as the World of Warcraft vender you are not allowed to feel any pride. You are allowed to feel nothing or you are allowed to feel bad. But I don’t think you are allowed to feel pride.
Casey:
If I may, just again, not to try and class up the podcast.
Jeff:
Wait one second. I just think I’m waiting now for the beer commercial that are like, “Beer, it brings people together.” And it shows a montage of like, him holding her hair out of the toilet as she pukes.
Casey:
I’ve been there.
Jeff:
Been there, done that. How were you gonna class up? “class”?
Casey:
Hey, guess what? No alcohol, no independence. That’s where this country’s at. If we didn’t have rum, forget it. We would be a British fucking colony today if we did not have alcohol. The Revolutionary War was fought on rum. Period. I don’t drink alcohol, I don’t like alcohol, but I’m gonna be honest here, drunks freed the country.
Jeff:
Drunks freed the country.
Casey:
And that’s not really that controvertible right? That’s kind of true. It’s like, everyone in the Revolutionary army was drunk off their ass and that is the only reason we won that fucking war OK? Cause otherwise they would have given up in the first fucking year OK? I guarantee you that. George Washington’s letter fucking say that practically. They’re like, “We need more fucking rum.”
Jeff:
We’ve got to get these soldiers drunk, seriously, we have a serious problem here.
Casey:
Dude, you’re telling people who have no training who have no fucking idea how to fight that they’re going up against the most powerful and navy in the world. You think you did that without them being hammered? No. They got hammered, they got rowdy. They trashed the fucking camp. That’s where they’re at alright?
Jeff:
So what we’re talking about is rum and racist babies made this country.
Casey:
You know that I like to see both sides of things. That’s a common Casey thing to like to do right? And it’s true, as much as I hate alcohol, and I used to be like, “Alcohols bullshit.” You know what is actually the case? That’s why we won the Revolutionary War.
Jeff:
You know that I am completely pro stimulant of every kind, so alcohol, like; weed should have been legal 20 years ago. Cocaine and heroin need to be phased in legally, all that stuff needs to happen because we are adults. So I’m all about it.
Casey:
And by adults you mean we’re all racist babies at heart.
Jeff:
What I’m trying to say is, the people who are selling these things can feel no pride in their business. That’s all I’m saying.
Casey:
Ill agree with you.
Jeff:
They can sell their shit but they are allowed to feel nothing or bad. They are not allowed to ever feel good. So the way they sleep at night is they do some of their alcohol, drugs, and World of Warcraft. God damn it.
Casey:
I see. So they DM a bit, and then they go to sleep.
Jeff:
And they feel good about themselves. Alright so should we do a few more questions? We got.
Casey:
What the fuck were we talking about just then? I don’t even know.
Jeff:
We started the Windows 7 thing.
Casey:
Did you have something else you wanted to say about Windows 7? You said its Vista.
Jeff:
Yeah it’s Vista. It’s vista everybody.
Casey:
Has Windows 7 been selling well? Is it out now?
Jeff:
That’s true. Since we’re doing this, in the 8 hour podcast, it’s been out for a couple weeks.
Casey:
When is the launch date?
Jeff:
The 22nd.
Casey:
The 22nd of October?
Jeff:
Which happened weeks ago.
Casey:
At this point yeah.
Jeff:
Hopefully. Who knows? What if this cuts out and we’re like, we eerily tell everybody what’s gonna happen. Windows 7 is gonna sell fine because it’s slightly better than vista and all people are looking for is, “I want the fucking.” The reason I went to Windows 7 is none of the drivers with Windows XP support the card, the motherboard. All the USBs don’t work. The network driver didn’t work. You can’t get it installed, and if you remember, XP doesn’t allow you to put a CD in. Press a key to put the floppy in. So I can’t install RAID without finding a floppy drive so I’m like, “Fuck it. I’ll go to Windows 7” And I think that’s what everybody wants is something that just doesn’t suck quite as bad but it’s the same fucking thing. They fixed a few things. If anything the video system is even more fucked now.
Casey:
Wow. How is that possible?
Jeff:
We could do a whole another thing about DX and where we are in DX and D3D and direct 2D and all this shit. It’s a world of pain people.
Casey:
A dark stinky place.
Jeff:
It is not a good place. But yeah.
Casey:
Somewhere in between your toilet and a sewage treatment plant lies the current state of video.
Jeff:
They’re in this weird situation where they’re like, “Well held Vista for so long that we held the graphics card industry back for a long time. DX 10 came out, then Vista didn’t sell so we don’t have any DX 10 games. So we want to come out and revise some stuff and fix it in 7, but we can’t because we can’t afford to put new shit in Windows 7. Windows 7 is fixing all the shit in vista. So now it’s like this same 5 year delay has been rolled into the delay of Window 7 and we’ll get DX 11.” So yeah. When you get off the updates every single or every other year thing, there’s this cascade effect where you can never catch up because, now we got to get Windows 7 out so we can’t put anything new in Windows 7. And you better believe they aren’t gonna do anything scary kernel-wise for Windows 8 when it comes out if ever. They learned their lesson there, so it’s gonna be like little fucking patches on the OS from now on. So I don’t know. Crazy.
Casey:
Not to mention that the Windows 7 core, if I’m correct, can only do 256 cores.
Jeff:
Yeah they bumped it up from 32. Remember, we were making fun of that on the podcast.
Casey:
Casue one of the problems is that’s not gonna last. Theyre gonna have machines with more than 256 processors in like 5 years probably right?
Jeff:
I don’t know what happens on big cores it depends. If Laraby hits the desktop, then they’ll be many more than that in this next year. Buts it’s unclear of when that hits.
Casey:
I’m just wondering what they that was gonna happen there then they’re like, “Yeah we can ship an operating system that only supports 256 cores.” What?
Jeff:
It is expensive. I can see them saying, “This will be good for 2 years, then we come out with service pack 1 that fucking bumps that up.”
Casey:
Is that realistic to think that a service pack is going to increase the kernel core count?
Jeff:
I think they probably shouldn’t have even done 256 unless it was really actually free. Because the core count’s gonna slow down a little bit. We’re gonna hit 16 on everything and then it’s gonna chill a bit I think. So we’ll see. Who knows?
Casey:
I kind of agree with you there. You either shouldn’t of cared and left it at 32 because.
Jeff:
Or bump it up to 64 because at 64 you have atomic things with 64 write that lets you do some interesting masking.
Casey:
Because there’s the same number of bits in your fundamental value as you do in pros. There is that but I guess I’m just saying that you either want to leave it at a low number and not worry about it till later or bump it up to something useful like 65536 or something.
Jeff:
It would be interesting to see if it happens. The clock rates, we’ve been stuck at 3-ish for a while. And were about to get back on the path a little bit. So who knows. I’ll take clock rate over cores. It’s sure a lot easier.
Casey:
I want the cores actually. I want the cores for one reason, and I’ll tell you why. I want people to have to stop their bullshit licensing policy of per machine licensing for renderers. So it’s like, what are you gonna do now folks. Now there’s so many fucking cores that you can’t do that anymore. You’ve got to deal with it at some point.
Jeff:
Well the Laraby thing is like, well OK you’ve got ass ton, I don’t think they’ve leaked the number yet but they’ve got a lot of fucking cores, and a lot of fucking hardware threads. So I think a lot of those, we license per, because it’s one core. They do license per core, and you’re like, OK its one core, its way more than your operating system is designed to support at any one time. So we’ll see.
Casey:
Anyways.
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casey muratori
the jeff and casey show - season 2 - episode 25
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