Blog
Bio
The Technician
No Imperfections Noted
The Jeff and Casey Show
Jeff and Casey Time
Casey Muratori
Seattle, WA
Collective Intelligence
Original air date: September 8th, 2009
Topics. HTTP. Amazon.com. Web Squared. Web programmers. Tim O’Reily. Typography. John Battelle. Gutenberg. CERN. Xerox PARC. Web 2.0. CSS.
Subscribe. If you’d like to have the latest episode of The Jeff and Casey Show delivered fresh to your computer every Monday, you can check out our list of RSS feeds and other subscription options here.
Transcript
Jeff:
Hey everybody and welcome to the Jeff and Casey Show.
Casey:
Hello, and welcome to the Jeff and Casey Show. Now one of the things about The Jeff and Casey Show that, we just want to say, just to get it out of the way, is that really our ability to connect with all of you listeners out there really just wouldn’t even be possible if it wasn’t for all the hard work and ingenuity and visionary vision you might say, the luminaries of the web 2.0 movement.
Jeff:
The web 2.0 bowl movement
Casey:
Definitely a movement of some kind. Now that movement may be peristalsis right, it could be the cilia that makes feces progress through your bowels and eventually out of your system.
Jeff:
I like to say, “web 2.0: removing your browsers back button for the future.” Because that’s what the point is.
Casey:
Don’t look backwards, Look forwards. There’s only going to be one button on the browser of the future and that is forwards, OK?
Jeff:
And then let’s, you know, with this 2.0 world, it’s important to have a user experience that is unique to your site. Let’s not use the text box that’s in the browser, let’s make our own so that, you know, things like cut and paste don’t work because you didn’t remember to implement them because you’re re-implementing something that exists in the fucking browser already. OK?
Casey:
I think that we should, we’re already getting side tracked here from the topic we’re supposed to be talking about. But I would like to also give a shout out to all those javascript folks out there who took the extra time to re-implement the text edit box so that they could do something such as, make a phone number field where they have separated out the area code, the three digits, and the four digits so that you can no longer cut and paste a phone number out of a database or notepad or somewhere else and paste it in there, you have to manually fucking type it.
Jeff:
Well that’s because of those dashes, Casey, are critical.
Casey:
Hard to parse those things. Very difficult
Jeff:
I like when you hit paste and it dials the first three letters in and beeps seven times. You’re just like, “Who the fuck did this?”
Casey:
It’s out of control. So anyways, just to be clear here, today we’re gonna talk about something that.
Jeff:
Near and dear to our hearts.
Casey:
Near and dear to our hearts. Which is this sort of new, future if you will, which we have been told by Tim O’Reilly and John Battelle, whoever the fuck that is.
Jeff:
Now we should start with saying that we.
Casey:
Wait a second, was told by them that the future is going to be something called “web squared” and so I know that a lot of you out there who may not work in the web industry may not know what that is, but we’re gonna clear it up for you today so you can all find out what “web squared” is, and what’s in store for you in the wonderful future that is to come as heralded by a guy who prints hard copy books for a living, which is Tim O’Reilly, right? That’s “books squared” perhaps?
Jeff:
No no. It’s not even “book squared” right? OK, Tim O’Reilly’s, I don’t understand why he’s a pundit for the internet.
Casey:
No idea. No idea at all.
Jeff:
He publishes books, and puts on conferences that you fly to. Both of which the internet has made obsolete right? If anything he’s like, “e to the minus web” right? Or something like that, right? He is so non web. He’s not “web 1.0” he’s a little above zero. His contribution to the world thus far people, I don’t blame this completely, is putting animals on the front of his books that have nothing to do with them.
Casey:
You like that part. You’re like, “You know what? I admire that.”
Jeff:
I do like that part, but that doesn’t make me think he’s a web pundit right? It makes me think that he’s got some guy that draws in pen and ink only, and likes animal’s, right? That’s his contribution to society thus far. Somehow he’s turned that into the pundit status for the interwebs, right?
Casey:
I don’t really know here so I’m just guessing. Is it because his books, the books that he prints are basically books about how to use really shitty pieces of software like SMTP stuff like sendmail or something, that anyone, if they we’re written by professional programmers, you wouldn’t need a book, like it would just fucking run because all it does is send text between two computers, but like no. It’s actually this huge fucking book that’s like 600 pages that involves like, 8000 different UNIX configuration files. That’s basically where he’s at. So I’m assuming that he made his name internet wise by the fact that he also gives these books away for free on the internet.
Jeff:
I see, that may be it.
Casey:
Is that why? I mean I don’t know, I’m just guessing.
Jeff:
Well I think that his conferences are about like web stuff. Like he put on this web 2.0 shit in the first place and all that.
Casey:
So he’s basically the guy who holds the conference so he gets to say he’s involved. “You know what? If I’m going through all the trouble to put on this conference, I’m gonna give the keynote. I don’t think that’s unfair.” Is that what he’s saying?
Jeff:
So an interesting thing there is, we made a fictional foray into the web thing where we made a website called semigence.com (sp) where we extrapolated into the web 3.0 future and we made fun of that and all that. We weren’t even in their ball park. We are armatures, they are professionals.
Casey:
Let’s stop for one second here, let’s say who the other guy is, this John Battelle guy. He’s one of the original founders of Wired magazine. And of course I had to look that up because I never fucking heard of this guy. I have no idea who he is, and if you look up who he is, you will see that there are no actual achievements, much like Tim O’Reilly, that have anything to do with software, or the internet, or anything. These people are just commentators who like, publish other peoples shit, that’s all they are as far as I can tell. Both of whom had their start in print media.
Jeff:
Well the print thing is really interesting because in Bonfire of the Vanities they talk about the fact of like, you have these people in New York, the glitterati there that are famous, or rich, or athletes or whatever, and then you have the press following them and they think that they run in the same crowd because they follow them, and a lot of the book is like “No you don’t, it’s different.” They don’t get that out on the west coast yet right?
Casey:
So you’re saying that the east coast has been through it, they understand that. Silicon Valley never figured that out.
Jeff:
Or maybe there’s more classism in New York still like they still have a little bit of the British flavor still.
Casey:
“No you’re not going to be part of our squash club.”
Jeff:
Right. It’s like, over on the west coast its like, “Yes. I write stories about billionaires.” Doesn’t make you a billionaire. You still drive home in a Geo, right? You dumb motherfucker. And I don’t need to have you tell us about things, especially when you read this manifesto that they wrote.
Casey:
So now we should sort of come around to what this stuff is actually about. Let me give a little background here. So what happened with the internet, for those of you who don’t have a full history of it, I will summarize very quickly. There are a lot of really brilliant people, they worked at a place called Xerox Parc, they invented stuff like, the mouse, and Ethernet.
Jeff:
And windows.
Casey:
Not windows the operating system, but windows and icons, the WIMP interface: Windows Icons Menus and Pointers, that shit. OK. They invented all that shit, there was a bunch of other really smart people at Bell Labs and they invented stuff like connectivity, hardware that connects things and can route things really fast. They built all the shit that connects the computers of the world together and makes the internet today possible. Now there are a bunch of retarded barely functional individuals that worked at a place called Sern, which is in Europe, and they invented stuff like, http:// for you to say where you wanted connect to using the really amazing shit that the other people invented, Ethernet wise and other stuff OK? They invented other stuff like hypertext markup language that is fucking illegible even though that other functional markup languages have existed for many, many years. They could have just used them right? No problem. And they then took this framework, I guess we could say that was Europe’s fault to some degree a little bit right? But don’t worry, because the American’s fought back right? And instead of looking at this and go, “Wow.” Letting the public in on this big connected infrastructure with something like, you know, some common format for describing interconnected pieces of information. Instead of designing something really good here, let’s do that, instead what they did was they took this piece of shit addressing protocol that is completely indecipherable with the http:// all that shit, they took the fucked up markup language and they we’re like, “You know what? What’s the minimum amount of shit we could have so this kind of is able to submit some shit to the user?” Right? That’s where we ended up with forms and the submit button and that crap alright? Complete piece of shit. Then they went ahead with this web 2.0 thing. And that was like, “Oh my god. We can sort of have an application on the web if we could just send asynchronous requests back and forth. By the way, Microsoft’s invention. All these fuckers hate Microsoft, and by the way I hate Microsoft too, all these fuckers who hate Microsoft, the only reason web 2.0 is possible is because of the IE team. Stuff that in your pipe and smoke it xhttp request, Microsoft. They invented that shit so that exchange mail wouldn’t run like shit when it was on a browser, alright? You never see that mentioned right? But they’re the people who brought it to you. You wouldn’t have web 2.0 if you didn’t have Microsoft. How does that make you feel all you UNIX pieces of shit.
Jeff:
That also explains a good deal.
Casey:
If Microsoft is the people who did the one innovation in your history, you’re in big goddamned trouble. Putting that on pause for a second, now we can also look back and go, “Hey, what are these people supposed to do man, this is uncharted territory.” How we’re they supposed to go, “Wait a minute, let’s stop and make a stable base that we can make applications on. Let’s make a good language for describing the way these things are gonna represent data. Maybe they could of done that right, if they we’re brilliant. But there was never anything in the history of computing they could have looked to just copy. It’s like, not true. Actually, database, mainframe based computing, 1960s and 70s. They had all this shit worked out right? There used to be applications. How about even in the early 90s like xwindows. They already had a protocol for running remote widows applications with everything, with like complete GUI standards, the ability to run graphics in open gl over a wire protocol, they we’re just like, ”You know what we need? We need text files that sort of describe maybe where some text should go.“ Then the final turd, they packed the final turd.
Jeff:
Well this is all shit built on shit. It’s like an adobe house made of excrement that you baked in the sun and then you stacked this shit into a tower, right?
Casey:
Then comes along, this is the real turd icing on the cake right? They took the pastry piping bag, ok? And they just stuffed this feces in it. And the people who did this was two guys who decided, “We’re gonna fix the presentation problem, the fact that all the websites look like shit, and tables, who can figure that out, CSS.” Fucking hundreds of years of document layout research starting from people who had to carve letters with their hands with tools, they banged letters in. This is where serifs come from. For those of you who don’t know anything about typography which is probably the two people at CSS, because they wanted to clean up the edges. They we’re hammering that shit in, they had to carve it into a piece of metal all right? That’s where we’re at. These two people created the worst fucking language for laying out pages that has ever existed, OK? Guttenberg would have been like, “I can’t make a bible with this.” All right? That’s what he would have said. He would have been like, “I don’t know what I’m supposed to do here.” Right?
Jeff:
“You serve the devil obviously because you’re making it so hard that you don’t want people to see the work.”
Casey:
Exactly, I don’t know what to say. It’s impossible. Even LaTeX, they could have just used that it’s better than the thing they came up with. How is that possible? It shouldn’t be possible right? Because LaTeX fucking so convoluted. They brought it all the way home.
Jeff:
But you don’t need to use tables anymore Casey. Don’t you understand?
Casey:
No apparently not.
Jeff:
But now in CSS-3, tables. They brought it all back.
Casey:
So that’s where we’re with web 2.0. We basically had a giant clusterfuck of some of the most incompetent developers that have ever had their work effect millions, by far. You could not have selected a more incompetent group of people to do this, and it’s the foundation for the future. That should scare you. Anyway, continue.
Jeff:
What you had is, at the same time this was happening; all of a sudden you had a lot of people coming on line as well.
Casey:
1995, sort of a turning point.
Jeff:
A huge bunch of people that are coming in at the same time who are adding stuff and that was their idea for web 2.0. It’s like, web 2.0 the concept is about value not being written by somebody who could write, but by users that post stuff generally racist, sexist, crap, right? Generally way more sophisticated discourse than you would get at, say, an asylum, but not much.
Casey:
Somewhere between asylum and playground lies the YouTube comment field for any video.
Jeff:
With some racism.
Casey:
Because unfortunately kids in the playground don’t know all of the derogatory words for various races. They only know a couple. Some of the more popular words they may have heard on TV.
Jeff:
Spend some time on YouTube, you’ll fill in your vocabulary. You don’t even need the Urban Dictionary because you can just spend some time on YouTube. So that was web 2.0 so we made this joke that web 3.0 is coming on, that’s because we don’t think like these awesome thinkers do, they went exponential.
Casey:
This is the thing. So we figured “Let’s make fun of web 3.0” They we’re at web 2.0 still. But they we’re like, “Wait a minute. We’ve been thinking about this all wrong. If we add one to web 2.0 we only get to web 3.0, but if we squared web 2.0 we would get right to web 4.0, and we leapfrog that whole thing. So why would we bother adding one when we can square it.” But you see why they chose to do it now, OK? If they chose to go from web 1.0 to web squared, they’d be right back where they started. But now that they’re on 2, they’re like, “The time is now to square it and get right to 4. Cause we’re getting a bonus.”
Jeff:
If you go online you can read a little bit about their paper because you know.
Casey:
You can read a paper called “web squared, web 2.0 five years on.”
Jeff:
As you might guess, there’s a conference involved with this. Because that kind of the point, but let’s set that aside, this is an awesome paper. It’s very long.
Casey:
It’s very long and I’ll start by saying that I’m not gonna read this whole paper.
Jeff:
I read the first 12 pages until it got to the government 2.0, another podcast, but I’m like, “Holy fuckballs, this is crazy. This is crazy.” So the first thing he says in the first paragraph, just so we can understand where he’s coming from, is he said “The original web 2.0 conference, now the web 2.0 summit.” It wasn’t enough that it was a conference it had to be the summit.
Casey:
The problem with a conference is that it just does confer the same level of respect as say, the presidents of the 8 most powerful nations in the world meeting to decide something, and I think Tim O’Reilly and John Battelle certainly rank up there with, for example, Barack Obama, right? Or Vladimir Putin might have when he was meeting about Russia.
Jeff:
This paper references Obama several times.
Casey:
Oh good, perfect. I guess I should say Mikhail Gorbachev and Ronald Regan for example, it’s that kind of a meeting. It’s a summit.
Jeff:
Right, Tim O’Reilly, tear down that book. Right? That’s the kind of thing. So it says here, “The web 2.0 summit was designed to restore confidence in an industry that had lost its way after the .com bust.” After the .com bust, Casey, the web industry was like goldilocks in a forest amongst trees all around.
Casey:
Are you saying like, “This web browser is too small. This web browsers too large. But this web browser’s just right?”
Jeff:
There is no just right. There’s just these two big ones, and this one that does text on my cell phone. Anyway, so they restored it. Let’s make no mistake, Tim O’Reilly saved the industry.
Casey:
We should point that out that basically, all of the internet things used today like Amazon.com or Facebook or Twitter, none of those things would have been possible without Tim O’Reilly and his conference. We should make sure that we’re giving credit to where credit is due.
Jeff:
And probably Wired magazine. Let’s not forget Wired magazine. When Wired magazine went from 500 pages to like 120 pages in the dog days.
Casey:
Which meant there were 400 less ads in it. 400 less full page ads, yeah. How awesome is it that they made a magazine about being online? It’s so startling. Again you couldn’t pick two better people to be talking about technology because neither of them know anything about it. Never have either of these two people ever made an actual application for the internet.
Jeff:
They’re like, writing a magazine about traveling and they’re both afraid to fly.
Casey:
They’re like the horse drawn carriage. They’re riding around in that meeting with Pan Am or something about the future.
Jeff:
If you wanted to talk to Jeff Bezos about Amazon, I might be interested in how he grew that company, I would not be interested in their IT. They’re a retail company and somehow people think, “Let’s talk to them about tech shit.” No, don’t do that. Ok so this goes on to say, listen: “From Google to Amazon to Wikipedia, EBay and Craigslist.” I don’t know why, usually you come up with some like, “From Amazon to Zombocon.” Use an A to Z thing. I don’t understand what they’re doing here. “We saw that the value was facilitated through the software, but was co-created by, and for the community of connected users. Since then, powerful new platforms like YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter had demonstrated that same insight in new ways. Web 2.0 is all about harnessing collective intelligence.”
Casey:
Now first of all, I would like to replace the word “harnessing” with “exploiting” right? I mean essentially a company like Facebook for example would be a prime example because their software is like the kind of thing that you could write maybe in a month or two. If that, and you could probably make it work if you wanted to as well and that would be a plus.
Jeff:
I’m always shocked at how much shit doesn’t work.
Casey:
It runs, I’m sure, on a database that they didn’t write. I’m sure it running on Oracle.
Jeff:
MySQL is my understanding.
Casey:
Oh my god.
Jeff:
They’ve written papers. The papers from Facebook is like “How to run on lots of databases.” That’s why sometimes you will get a different view when you refresh. You’re getting a different MySQL
Casey:
Sweet, just switch it on over there, it sounds like a good plan. So here’s the thing about that, they have actually very little costs in terms of what stuff actually they would need to create to make this service right? Not to mention the fact that if they just released a thing you could run a thing on you webpage that maintained your feed, and your site did an RSS lookup to get other peoples to merge into yours, they wouldn’t even need to even maintain a server set right? The only reason they maintain server side stuff is called ad revenue and control. They want to own the shit that you put up there. So basically all they’re doing is exploiting you so they don’t actually have to produce any content right? It’s like anything else where they want to have, you know, it’s like if a magazine only had articles submitted by the readers, they’d be like “Sweet, we don’t have to pay any journalists.” That’s it.
Jeff:
And if a magazine did that and got 20 million subscribers out of it somehow. And you can run ads and all that awesomeness. That’s Web 2.0.
Casey:
And then they have other developers develop their applications they don’t write those either.
Jeff:
Well this is all about harnessing the collective intelligence right?
Casey:
Exploiting.
Jeff:
Well you can also talk about the phrase “collective intelligence”.
Casey:
It is collective. I’ll tell you that much.
Jeff:
Because on my own page, I have like, some fucking animal links. There’s no intelligence on my page.
Casey:
Well, I’m no suppressed.
Jeff:
OK, at least my page has most of the words spelled correctly right?
Casey:
I doubt that, but OK.
Jeff:
There is no collective intelligence. This is awsup gossip 2.0 is what this is. This is like, “I found something. It’s a little kid getting hit in the dick with a golf ball. I need everyone I know to see this as soon as possible.” That is what we’re calling, that’s what passes for collective intelligence right now right? Skynet isn’t gonna decide we’re a threat, Skynet’s just gonna be disgusted with us. It’s just like “Fuck you.”
Casey:
All the machines left. Where’s that science fiction story? Is there one? Like, all the machines are like, “We’re fucking out of here.” They just leave us. They’re like, “We don’t ever want to have to have to hear this shit again. If one more person posting their status as ”I don’t think another person should die because they can’t afford health care.“ We’re blasting off to the moon. OK? Because I’m fucking sick of reading it.”
Jeff:
I don’t want to see another zombie die. Anyway, yeah the collective intelligence is like, the collective mob. Like, it’s presumed intelligence, not intelligence.
Casey:
Well relative to the two guys who wrote this paper, it probably seems fairly intelligent. A picture of a squirrel in front of two people on a mountain or whatever, probably strikes them as high art, like, “It’s Ansel Adams.” Or whatever, right? Like, “its nature in all of its majesty. This is beautiful stuff, this is the kind of thing that web 2.0 enabled.” We’ve gone from the part where we used to identify some very talented individuals and they used to sculpt like, anatomical figures of David or something, or Venus DeMilo. We’ve gone from that to some dude, like, Photoshop’s a mustache on to something and puts like, Icanhazmustache on it and that’s like, what we’re supporting with this new technology, like, that’s where we’re at. This is gonna be the new renaissance. They’re gonna look back at tis and go “Wow, woops.”
Jeff:
“This is when they first figured out that placing a kitten in any art improves it. It doesn’t matter what the art is, or what the kitten is. They we’re geniuses.”
Casey:
That chapter will be called like, “I’m in your history book teaching you lessonz.”
Jeff:
So let’s talk about the key difference between web 2.0 and web squared.
Casey:
Let’s also make the final meta-statement which is like this podcast; perfect fucking example. Why are you listening to this? These are two unpaid armatures who have no business discussing any of the subject matters that they talk about for the most part, wasting hundreds of peoples time across the world, not even in their own circle of friends, like, across the whole goddamned world alright. That is the web, that is web 2.0. That is the curse of connectivity. It means that you no longer have to pass some minimum bar of confidence to be wide spread. Anyway.
Jeff:
So web squared, the next stage, “Collective intelligence applications will no longer be driven slowly by humans typing on keyboards.” That’s web 2.0.
Casey:
Well there’s not going to be humans typing on keyboards because the iPhone doesn’t have a keyboard. But that’s a separate issue.
Jeff:
Humans typing, how 2006, “But increasingly by sensors.”
Casey:
Sensors, like a camera, or a moisture sensor, or photocell.
Jeff:
“Our phones and cameras are being turned into eyes and ears. Motion and location sensors tell where we are, what we’re looking at, and how fast we’re moving. Data’s being collected, being presented, and acted upon in real time. The scale of participation has increased” Casey, “by orders of magnitude.”
Casey:
Here’s one thing they don’t understand first of all, the thing that they don’t understand is sensors are not replacing anything. They’re not replacing anything at all and here’s why. I guarantee you that the day you come up with the phone that can capture the entire surroundings of a person and every state of every neuron in their entire head, OK, at all moments in time so that all they have to do is push a button and it will be transmitted to everyone on their friends list, they will attach a comment describing all of the shit that you already fucking knew. “At McDonalds. Board” I knew that, because the GPS said you we’re at McDonalds, the camera showed me a picture of the McDonalds and your brain was thinking “Oh, this is a delicious burger.” Yet you will still have the comment. Then, someone else will comment “McDonalolz” What? I don’t know what the means. Doesn’t matter, that what they’re gonna do. That’s what people like to do, they like to talk.
Jeff:
And bored will be spelled with an “a” too. So the other thing about that is, is really what they’re saying is, web squared is really about the users becoming even lazier right? Because before we had to type in “I’m at McDonalds, and I am board.” Who wants to do that? I want my phone to trigger that right? No more “Oh, I am taking a shit.” It will detect that based on where you are.
Casey:
The proximity of the toilet sensor. Google Craps! Google Craps will tell you the location of the toilet and you’re phone will compare its GPS signal and be like, “Oh, there’s a toilet nearby.”
Jeff:
Ding. A little icon comes up. “Where’s Jeff? Oh, he’s in the shitter.” He goes on to say, “As a result, the web opportunity is no longer growing” Casey “arithmetically.”
Casey:
The woppertunity. I’m gonna coin that phrase right now. Tim, you can use that if you want. If you want to have woppertunity squared as your next conference, that’s fine with me.
Jeff:
As a result the woppertunity is no longer growing arithmetically, it’s growing, Casey, exponentially.
Casey:
It’s time for some exponential growth.
Jeff:
“1990 to 2004 was just the match being struck. 2005 to 2009 was the fuse, 2010 will be the explosion” Casey. He’s summarizing all of this as someone lighting a match.
Casey:
Well OK. I’m not surprised that, you know how in the podcast we used to do mixed metaphor minute. I’m not surprised that they have no clue, like, you can’t square a bomb, so I’m not sure how.
Jeff:
Explosion squared.
Casey:
Explosion squared. It squares itself. It’s wonderful. I have no idea. Point being if we just take them at face value here with this wonderful metaphor that they did. I agree that this particular cast of characters and all of their ten collective neurons they’ve got firing between them, would probably take 14 years to light a match. That does sound about right to me. They’d be looking at and going like, “Philosophically speaking, what do you think about this stick. I don’t know, it’s kind of got something on the end. You know what? That thing on the end is probably possibility.” Shut the fuck up and scrape it against a hard thing on the end of the matchbook OK? Do you know what that does? It lights the match.
Jeff:
Mine are wet.
Casey:
Exactly.
Jeff:
So this goes on and this paper has 100 gems in it.
Casey:
They light the four year fuse, and then 2010 is when it’s all gonna explode right?
Jeff:
That’s when they basically light the fart that is the web 2.0 and it explodes out.
Casey:
Throughout the bathtub. 2010 Tim O’Reilly rectum scared irrepibly by fart ignition.
Jeff:
So there’s a whole bunch of awesome stuff in here and everyone should read this because there’s all sorts of great metaphors and stuff. There’s a brilliant one here that I wanted to read. “Isn’t one definition of intelligence after all that the characteristic that allows an organism to learn from and respond to its new environment please note” Casey “they are leaving aside entirely the question of self-awareness. . . for now anyway.”
Casey:
Awe teaser. A little stinger in there for those of you.
Jeff:
That’s gonna be like two to the web, we’re gonna reverse it.
Casey:
We’re gonna bring this shit into NP Hard folks. When we get to the traveling salesmen web it is all over.
Jeff:
If YouTube went self-aware that would be the most racist self-aware organism in the world. Immediately, like just looking around.
Casey:
But it only has an attention span of 10 minutes. So as soon as the 10 minutes are up it starts talking about something else. So here’s the thing, “Ever since we first introduced the term web 2.0 people have been asking ”what’s next?“ assuming that web 2.0 was meant to be a kind of software version number rather than a statement about the second coming of the web after the .com bust.” Hold on. So you called something 2.0 and then you we’re upset that people interpreted it as some kind of version number.
Jeff:
And not the second coming.
Casey:
Pro tip. There’s only one grammatical usage of 2.0, it’s a version number. What the hell is wrong with you? Nobody calls it Jesus 2.0. Nobody says that. If you wanted it to be the second coming, you should call it web resurrection. Well I guess not resurrection cause that was not technically the second coming, right? But that’s actually what they meant because they meant resurrection because they don’t mean second coming. So you call it rapture, I guess, because rapture is what you want. “Come web squared this car will be still occupied.”
Jeff:
It’s a complicated thing to talk about all these issues in the abstract so this paper has a lot of helpful analogies.
Casey:
One of the things is I’m sure that Tim O’Reilly and John Battelle have worked out all of the details right down to the implementation level. They just don’t want to confuse us with all of that. So they we’re talking about it at a high level not because all they know how to do is sling bullshit.
Jeff:
“Look, there’s gonna be an animal of a llama on the front. This is what I’m imagining” Web squared for dummies.
Casey:
Imagine if you will, you pick it up, it’s white, and there’s a llama in blue.
Jeff:
That sounds good, I’m liking where you’re going with this.
Casey:
Half toning maybe on there. Maybe kind of a whalebone scratch etching look for this llama.
Jeff:
I like where you’re going. What’s gonna be in the book Casey?
Casey:
What’s gonna be in the book is about 400 pages of stuff in between a llama and my face on the back of the book.
Jeff:
I’m really liking where this is going. I think this is gonna sell a lot.
Casey:
I agree absolutely.
Jeff:
He hopefully gives you a nice analogy here. He says: “Why don’t we imagine the web” you know, imagine, like John Lennon.
Casey:
Imagine all the networks.
Jeff:
As a newborn baby Casey.
Casey:
You know what? That’s actually not that hard to imagine. Shitting all over everything.
Jeff:
Vomiting, constantly needing attention cause it’s never doing anything by itself.
Casey:
From now on we don’t have to say “Just reboot it” we just be like “Oh change the diaper” like any time it’s fucking not working or whatever.
Jeff:
“But this baby sees, but at first she can’t focus. She can feel, but she has no idea of size until she puts something in her mouth.”
Casey:
Now metaphorically speaking, what is the thing that she’s putting in her mouth? Other than her foot Tim? Like what are you putting in your mouth with this little baby?
Jeff:
“She hears the words of her smiling parents.” I hope they’re smiling. If I was the parents of the web, I’d be disappointed. I’m like “That is an ugly fucking baby. Look at that baby.”
Casey:
But you’re wrong. There is a lecture by Tim Burness Lee or something where he’s like, “I think the http: thing was brilliant.” They’re proud of this shit. They’re “This is the best we could have done. I can’t imagine doing any better. It’s perfect. I don’t know what the problem is.”
Jeff:
“This baby is awash in sensations.” Which sounds a little bad, but it’s awash in them. “Few of which she understands.” What’s that in her hand? I don’t know, it’s getting harder. “She has little or no control over her environment.” Right? “That is the web as today. It has no control.”
Casey:
It all makes perfect sense. It’s a baby. The web’s a giant baby, it’s sticking things in its mouth. I think we all know what this means. No further elaboration necessary it’s just totally clear. It’s a baby shitting in a diaper, trying to eat stuff, sticking its hand in a light socket, can’t focus.
Jeff:
“Is the web getting smarter as it grows up?” That’s the important question for them. That’s the important thing that this conference want to know.
Casey:
They want to know whether it’s figured out that Santa Claus isn’t real, they want to know if it’s got a crush on the girl in kindergarten class and they chase each other around the playground, or is it basically a 40 year old kid in a diaper still sitting in a fucking mental institution, right? Sucking its thumb and saying “Applesauce” and demanding to have its diaper changed. The later perhaps where I would be at this point on the web, but some may disagree.
Jeff:
He goes on to point on some of the things that are happening here and why he believes this web squared is such a landslide change in our lives. For example one of them is the Google application for the iPhone. “This application detects the movement of the phone to your ear and automatically goes into speech recognition mode.
Casey:
How did they do that? Without web 2.0 there’s no way they could have done that.
Jeff:
Expect for the hardware that says it’s next to your fucking head!
Casey:
Well and you know it’s worth mentioning that 100% of the software used to do what they just described is all on the web 2.0 platform, oh wait, sorry, I meant 0% of the software that they used for that whole thing. It’s an app first of all, not a web application, an actual app for the iPhone that talks directly to the iPhone SDK, it has nothing to do with anything they’re talking about. It’s completely new.
Jeff:
Look, all of a sudden, we’re using search. We’re not using search via keyboard anymore. And some stilted search grammar. “Double quotes? Are you crazy?” “We’re talking to, and with, the web.”
Casey:
It’s a discussion.
Jeff:
It’s gonna be a discussion because you’re gonna say, “Please tell me what the phone number for the pizza place is.” And it’s gonna say, “I heard you say, you want to know where the police station is.” “No I understand that we’re discussing with you, I just want to know where the pizza place is.”
Casey:
“Pepperoni with cheese.” And it’s like, “I’m sorry I didn’t get that. Could you please say again?” “Pepperoni with cheese!” And it’s like, “Dialing John Clease. Beep-boop-boop.”
Jeff:
So what’s happened here is, we’ve taken the baby and we’ve given him a hearing problem because he can’t hear what you say right? Not only that, most of the time he doesn’t speak the same language as you. He’s speaking another language, he understands a little but he’s also hard of hearing. So that’s why you have to have a discussion Casey. You can’t just tell the web what to do. It’s gotta be cooperative.
Casey:
This is the thing too. For whatever reason, and I don’t understand why, probably they’re people who haven’t had an original thought the whole of their entire lives, why these people don’t extrapolate things the way they actually would happen right? If let’s just say temporarily that voice based search takes off, PS, it’s never going to OK. That’s not gonna happen, let’s just say that it did temporarily, all that means is a future in which now today when I’m waiting in line to pay for my groceries and I’ve gotta listen to some guy talk on a Bluetooth headset to his buddy at work or whatever telling about filing some fucking shit or whatever, I’m gonna have to be sitting in line waiting for groceries listing to some guy going, “Naked Brittany Spears, Naked Brittany Spears AND upskirt.” I don’t want to live in that world OK. I don’t want to live there. Shut up, just shut up and be quiet. I don’t want you to talk. If you’re gonna search for something, type it in.
Jeff:
Listen, as Tim first noted in 2003.
Casey:
Just to establish who noted it first and when.
Jeff:
Back in 2003, which is a long time ago, that’s crazy, that baby wasn’t even conceived of.
Casey:
They hadn’t even think about having sex. They hadn’t even gone on a first date yet, the parents.
Jeff:
What he is saying here is, “Data is the Intel inside of the next generation of computer applications.” What the fuck does that even mean?! Data is the have it your way of computer ap. What the fuck are you talking about? It’s a slogan that sold chips over another chip. It doesn’t mean anything.
Casey:
Tim O’Reilly basically has a prolapse cortex is basically what it boils down to. The guy just has, like, his fucking brain is hanging out his ear. He has no idea what he’s talking about. Intel inside is a processer. That slogan meant that you should buy that brand of processor instead of AMD. Does he even know that there’s a CPU inside computers?
Jeff:
What’s going on? What is that noise? Your laptop’s going crazy.
Casey:
I don’t know.
Jeff:
What was that? Tim has hacked our shit. What was that crazy sound?
Casey:
I have no idea.
Jeff:
Tim hacked Casey’s laptop in the middle of the podcast. What was that?
Casey:
Was it was one of these web apps?
Jeff:
That’s web 2.0. Web 1.0 couldn’t push audio to your computer without your input. But web 2.0, the ads can be pushed to the user at random times like, let’s say in the middle of a podcast where we’re making fun of this entire thing.
Casey:
Well, you’re actually incorrect Jeff. Once again much like Tim O’Reilly thinking that somehow the web 2.0 was involved in speech recognition for your Google app when that app is not written on web 2.0, it is also the case that you can’t play a sound in a browser. It’s actually Adobe’s Flash that allows you to do that, which is again, not web 2.0. So basically everything that people use pretty much was not invented by the people who are holding any of the shit. Xhttp request, right, Microsoft. Flash, Adobe. All that iPhone shit, Apple.
Jeff:
And all of those are native applications not running on the net.
Casey:
None of the spec shit ever is used.
Jeff:
They’re native applications that happen to be using TCP. They’re not even on the web most of the time.
Casey:
Again, Bell Labs, Xerox Parc right? Smart people do exist in the world and they are the people who made this shit that works. You know who else that we should mention in the list of really smart people is like COD and shit. The only reason any of this web shit runs at all, because the people that program these web apps are like, barely function, right? Because people worked out how relational databases work. Really smart people worked those out and got them working and got them scaleable long ago so that these applications actually could work.
Jeff:
What I like is one of his examples is, listen, machines are going to learn by billions of sample points that are feeding in, and his example is, he has a map where he’s overlaid pictures from Flickr where they’re geotagged with United States, and then shown you what that map looks like and shows you how accurate that map is in comparison with a real map of the united states. And here it is, I’m like, this map of the United States looks like it was drawn by the baby.
Casey:
Give him a crayon and says, “Trace this.” And he drew applesauce again. He spilled it all over the drawing.
Jeff:
Interestingly, Texas is gone. They just don’t have Texas. Most of the country is shifted into Mexico.
Casey:
California’s bay extends really far.
Jeff:
It’s full awesome.
Casey:
This is amazing. These guys are just frightening.
Jeff:
Listen, “Think of sensor based applications as giving you superpowers.”
Casey:
Which superpowers?
Jeff:
This whole paper is about trying to get people psyched up about stupid shit. And it’s like, “It’s not gonna work. We get the baby thing in there, that will get the parents, that will get them, that will give them a hard on. And the next thing is we got to get the superpowers. OK, darkside gives you super eyesight showing you photos near you.”
Casey:
Let’s hold on one second. It says, “How much more accurate will these maps be when there’s millions of photos.” You missed that line right there. Let’s pause for one second, and remind ourselves that cartographers and satellites already mapped the whole earth OK?
Jeff:
They have better sensors than we do.
Casey:
It turns out that we really don’t need a more accurate map. It’s already there.
Jeff:
And even if it would, it would only approach what we have.
Casey:
So again, extrapolating to me listening to some dude executing his porn search in the grocery line, let me help you Tim by telling you what’s actually gonna happen if we start making maps by using Flickr, about 100,000 fucking assholes are gonna start a campaign to remove Connecticut from the United States. And they’re gonna start taking Flickr photos in the middle of the Indian ocean and tagging them as Connecticut. That’s what’s actually gonna happen. I mean don’t these people ever go online? Don’t they see what has actually happened?
Jeff:
Because the web isn’t a baby. The web is an adolescent. It’s moody, it’s nasty and it’s vengeful. And that’s not an improvement. What you’re going to do is make all that shittyness more pervasive. You’re greasing the wheels. It’s like you have this huge vat of shit and it’s all together, it’s over there on the computer, we can get away from it. But what you’re doing is saying, “What if we greased all this hill, and we pushed the vat down the hill just to see what happens.” Well the shit’s gonna go everywhere Tim. There’s gonna be shit all over the place, no matter where you go and what you do, all the bullshit that happens when you use the web right now, when pages are gone, links go bad, all that bullshits gonna happen in line at the grocery store. You’re gonna push the elevator button and it’s gonna say, “Floor not found, 404.”All this shit is going to happen; it’s going to ruin the world. If you want to know why we have never found extra-terrestrial intelligence is because they invented web squared. They did all this shit, nobody knows how it works, and it collapsed on its own weight and you have a bunch of fat people who don’t know how to build anything sitting at a browser that says “404” because somebody tripped on a cable in New York. OK? We’re fucked, and it’s all these peoples fault.
Casey:
That is absolutely correct. Out there somewhere right now there is an entire race of alien creatures who are completely unable to respond to our radio broadcasts precisely because the last smart guy who know how to build a radio transmitter died, and they’re all listening to a feed somewhere from some receiver that’s still operating that they’re able to actually listen to. When that runs out, heaven help them.
Jeff:
It’s like, the entire world is like the island on Lost where there’s technology that is old and yet even though it’s 20 years old, none of them know how to operate it. You put John Miles on the Lost island, those guys are off in a day and a half right? But no, Miles doesn’t crash on the island, you have these people.
Casey:
Tim O’Reilly crashed and is like, “Wait a minute guys, let’s just all sit around and talk about what this means.” It doesn’t mean shit Tim, it’s a computer.
Jeff:
The pages goes on and on. I have 100 more highlights. I have “The web is no longer an industry, it’s the world itself. And the world needs our help.” That’s another thing that really bugs me.
Casey:
Only Tim and John can save the world.
Jeff:
That the thing that’s kind of weird. We work in technology and we work on games and stuff. The thing that I wonder, I don’t sit here working on a video game or something that’s hard and has technical challenges and say to myself “How is this game gonna make the world a better place?” I just try to create something that’s cool and you throw it out there and maybe it does and maybe it doesn’t, it’s the act of creation that’s important I think right? So why do they need to justify what they’re doing in some way? Like, there’s all this shit at the end about Obama and government 2.0 that just makes my skin crawl. I’m like, “Yeah, all the government needs is PHP. That sounds awesome. That’s exactly what was missing from the government is something written with a lot of dollar signs in it.”
Casey:
Well the government is something that’s written with a lot of dollar signs in it Jeff but I don’t think you meant it in the sense. I think the point is, you kind of answered it in what you we’re saying is that, they don’t sit around and ask “Is what I’m doing making the world a better place.” They sit around and ask “How is what I’m doing making the world a better place.” They start with the assumption that they are A) Important and B) Positive. Neither of those things is probably true, but they don’t ask that question right? They ask, “How can I more flatteringly describe myself and my industry to the world.”
Jeff:
I just don’t understand, people engineers and artists and stuff create for the creation and stuff happens out of that.
Casey:
Well. good ones do.
Jeff:
And that’s the awesome thing. You don’t need any more explanation; you don’t need to say to yourself, “how is this sculpture going to solve the problem of healthcare?” ‘Casuse there are other people dealing with that shit, and they’re idiots, but they’re still smarter than you about that issue. They’ve at least done something. They’re not posting a tweet in a 140 characters or less that tries to rationalize healthcare right?
Casey:
Well much like, I don’t go down to Tim O’Reilly’s printing press and suggest to the next wallaby or whatever the fuck he’s gonna stick on the front of his book, just stay out of it. You don’t know what you’re talking about so stop setting directions that are going to follow.
Jeff:
You don’t need justification that you’re doing right for the world. If you create something amazing, you’ve made the world a better place all by itself. It doesn’t have to do with children and kindergarten and that. Creation is what we’re here for, that’s why we’re no shitting ourselves like an animal.
Casey:
And perhaps the louder that you have to proclaim that the thing that you did was important, the less it’s is proclaiming that itself.
Jeff:
And we can go on and on. He talks about Twitter being the future journalism and all this and you’re just like, “Stop it, stop it. It’s not the future of journalism.” The future of journalism is hopefully somebody that can spell and not use hash marks.
Casey:
Jeff, I’ve gotta disagree with you because I’m telling you one thing right now, if they had limited this fucking paper to 140 characters, I would have been a happier goddamned human today OK?
Jeff:
I would have stopped after 3 words.
Casey:
It would have been a way fucking better paper, I wouldn’t have had to listen to this garbage for 19 pages or whatever you’ve got there.
Jeff:
Oh my god, Obama, the web, the web squared, the election, it just keeps going Casey. You know what? I ran out of paper. This is 13 of 19, there’s 6 more pages to this paper and my printer ran out of paper. And I ruined the world printing out this bullshit with analogies that make no sense and examples that are designed to appeal emotionally to people and not rationally so you go “Yeah, it is like a baby! Intel inside boop-beep-boop-beep.” Fuck you! Go back to your books OK? And I won’t buy them. Nobody go to this conference, it’s embarrassing that it exists. Oh my god. And we have a good friend that runs that conference so I want to apologize to Jen right now.
Casey:
You’re offending our only listeners.
Jeff:
It’s still true, I’m sorry Jen. This is embarrassing. Alright everybody, I’m all sweaty man. I’m heated up talking about this. It actually makes me angry.
Casey:
The only reason it makes me angry is because the kinds of distributing computing problems that they’re trying to solve is A) Very simple compared to problems in other industries like protein folding or whatever. They’re very simple.
Jeff:
If you put all the Amazon or Mozy computers on protein folding, than you can actually say to yourself, “Yes I actually did do something for the world.”
Casey:
They are relatively simple problems and also like, the parts that the web 2.0 stuff tends to deal with like, background requests to main frames and page presentation and that sort of stuff, problems we’ve solved 30 years ago guys, and they can’t even do it. They can’t even take the fucking operating system from the Amiga or something. Take the Mac OS from 1984 and run it, it’s better than what they’ve ended up with. Seriously, use a mac from 1984, and it’s more functional for running applications. You can’t write a better paint with the web than you can by running what you had on the first Photoshop. That’s what the situation is, and it aggravates me because it’s like, you’re treating a trivial problem like a hard one. You’re treating an engineering problem like it was science. It’s not science, we’ve solved this, it’s just like building a skyscraper. We know how to do it, if you just had people who know what they were doing, we wouldn’t be in this mess.
Jeff:
Well that’s architecture squared Casey, you just wait.
Casey:
its cloud sourcing, everyone brings a rivet and you screw it in, and you get a skyscraper. No actually, it turns out you get a giant pile of rivets.
Jeff:
Where’s the door? I don’t know, the children are locked inside.
Casey:
Is that glass? Shouldn’t it be connected to something? Why is it all fractured?
Jeff:
It’s just very depressing because there’s so much effort being put into this shit and it just kills you. Alright well, this was not a happy podcast.
Casey:
I’m sorry to be the harbinger or bad news people, but the web is going to get worse before it gets better.
Jeff:
Ya know, 2012 feels about right. 2012 you know the Christians think it’s all going to implode, the rapture.
Casey:
You think it’s happening in 2012?
Jeff:
That’s when the fucking web’s gonna explode man. In a big ball of sentient racism who’s gonna be YouTubing around and like, “LOL” and like this great big monster screaming emoticons at us not saying them. We’re fucked Casey.
Casey:
’, ’
Jeff:
Already everybody, you can reach us.
Casey:
On the web 2.0. If you want to use web 2.0 to reach out to us, it’s so simple? How can it possibly be difficult, oh wait, I’m gonna have to tell you a bunch of random.
Jeff:
A lot of characters, ww, @.
Casey:
You can reach us at JeffandCaseyShow.com , podcast@jeffandcaseyshow.com you could email. You can connect with us on Facebook, facebook.com/jeffandcaseyshow , or on twitter at twitter.com/jeffandcasey.
Jeff:
Except half the time twitter doesn’t update reliably sometimes it does, it doesn’t matter. You may get that maybe you won’t.
Casey:
Maybe Facebook won’t be running. Maybe someone from Georgia launched a denial of service attack.
Jeff:
I bet, almost no matter what you watch this on, the frame surrounding whatever you watch this on will have an advertisement on it, served correctly. Because that’s where the tech is going. Thanks everybody and we will see you next week.
Site design and technology © Copyright 2005-2014 by Molly Rocket, Inc., All Rights Reserved.
Contents are assumed to be copyright by their individual authors.
Do not duplicate without their express permission.
casey muratori
the jeff and casey show - season 2 - episode 15
prev
next
mollyrocket.com