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The Technician
No Imperfections Noted
The Jeff and Casey Show
Jeff and Casey Time
Casey Muratori
Seattle, WA
Tapioca Zombiefest 2000 Bagel Delivery Girl
"Who said that a forty-year-old Muppet and a twenty-year-old Muppet would be babies in the same nursery?"
Original air date: August 10th, 2008
Topics. PHP. The Jeff Show and the Casey Show. Silver anniversaries. On-screen keyboards. Tapioca Zombiefest 2000. HTML. CSS. Braid.
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Transcript
Jeff:
Hello, everybody. Welcome to the 25th episode of the Jeff & Casey Show.
Casey:
25 long weeks of podcasts.
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
What is the 25th anniversary of something. It’s like, you know, amethyst or paper or straw or something…
Jeff:
Yeah, I think it’s…
Casey:
What is it?
Jeff:
I don’t know. It’s like, silver…
Casey:
There’s one for every year.
Jeff:
Yeah, I know. I know.
Casey:
Alright. No, it’s not silver.
Jeff:
Isn’t it?
Casey:
It’s not silver.
Jeff:
I thought…
Casey:
Is it? Is it silver?
Jeff:
I feel like it might be silver.
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
I don’t know.
Casey:
Alright. We’ll have to check it out.
Jeff:
Well, let’s see. Yeah, we’ve done 25 of these. It takes us about half a day to do every one…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So we’re looking basically…
Casey:
It’s 2 weeks.
Jeff:
We’ve invested 2 weeks in 6 months.
Casey:
At least 2 weeks. Yeah.
Jeff:
To do the podcast?
Casey:
Mmhmm…
Jeff:
Holy shit.
Casey:
Yeah, not to mention all the time fucking around with the fucking iTunes feed or the website or trying to get shit to work…
Jeff:
That’s totally true.
Casey:
You know, it’s… So this is it. We spend all of our… We waste our time and then everyone else wastes their time listening to it. It’s like, a complete net drain on everything.
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
I can’t think of anything good coming out of this podcast.
Jeff:
Jeff & Casey destroying…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The game development productivity…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Industry-wide.
Casey:
Although, it’s hard to get upset about destroying productivity for an industry which all it does is destroy productivity. Like, game development itself is a waste of people’s time, right?
Jeff:
Well, wait. Maybe it’s a net win.
Casey:
So maybe we’re preventing people from making games that would’ve been wasting other…
Jeff:
Right, that’s what I’m saying…
Casey:
That keep the world’s time…
Jeff:
Right. So we’re wasting, like… The game developer community of 20,000 people or so, we’re wasting their time.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
So they ship late. So overall…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
In economic sense, it’s a win.
Casey:
Right. In this giant Russian nesting doll of time-wasting…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We are the little babushka.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We are the littlest one all the way on the inside, wasting the time of the slightly bigger one.
Jeff:
There’ll be like… Greenspan will be talking about, like…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
The Dribble Up Theory where our dribble goes upwards and then…
Casey:
Yeah, well, it’s definitely dribble.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
I think you found the right word for it.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I’m trying to buy “Braid”.
Casey:
Oh, God. Well, 1st of all, we should remind everyone that if they haven’t bought “Braid”…
Jeff:
To go buy “Braid”.
Casey:
And they can buy… Microsoft deigns it acceptable…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
That they purchase the product on their fucking service…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That they should definitely go buy it.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yes. However, some people’s mileage may vary. Atman was unable to buy “Braid”, as well.
Jeff:
Really?
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
I didn’t know that.
Casey:
So continue, go ahead.
Jeff:
What had happened is I had a Gold subscription that came with my Xbox.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
You set up your credit card.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And the idea is when that gold runs out, they just start charging your credit card.
Casey:
Yeah, I think that should’ve been happening to me, I think.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So in the meantime, my expiration on my credit card overlapped to the one year Gold subscription and when it would go to renew.
Casey:
Okay. So your Gold subscription got cancelled effectively or something?
Jeff:
Right. Well, they emailed me and said, “Dude, if you don’t update your credit card, your Gold’s gonna go to Silver.” I’m like, “I never turned the fucking thing on. Fine.” And then I even actually emailed the thing and said, “Well, it just downgrade to a Silver?” And they’re like, “Yes, it’s just fine.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So I’m like, “Cool.” So I go in, I turn on the Xbox for the 1st time in 6 months…
Casey:
Oh, but that’s not what happened…
Jeff:
Turned it on…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
First off, it has to update the system software twice.
Casey:
Oh, sure. Yeah.
Jeff:
It doesn’t do it once. It does it once and then again.
Casey:
Well, that’s like Windows Update, right?
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
It’s like, not you’re getting all the security patches…
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
It’s just like open wide…
Jeff:
It’s awesome. So it does that.
Casey:
Although, unlike Windows Update, it’s like you have to do it, right? It’s like… It’s not like “if you like to do it.” No. Either you can’t connect to the network or you will suck down these updates and like it.
Jeff:
Yep. And so, it downloads all that. And I’m like, “Fine. Goddamn it. I just want to play the game.” Go and try to buy it. Fail. I’m like, “Alright, I’ll buy points.” Go to try to buy points…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
It says you don’t have a credit--…
Casey:
Right, ‘cos it expired.
Jeff:
A payment type on file.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So I type it all in…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Which takes for-fucking-ever…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
’Cos you’re like…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Typing it all in…
Casey:
You can plug in a USB keyboard for that? Can you?
Jeff:
Oh, okay. No, I didn’t know that. I don’t have one…
Casey:
Can you? I don’t know.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Well, I know you can buy those little keyboards that attach to the joystick that look ridiculous.
Jeff:
I know.
Casey:
Right but…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Keep going.
Jeff:
That’s…
Casey:
It would be worth it for these times, though when you’re just like, “Goddamn it.”
Jeff:
That’s like the Bluetooth earpiece of joysticks.
Casey:
Oh, right. You totally know that the dude’s… Ryan Ellis has one of those.
Jeff:
Does he…
Casey:
And he totally was trying to… He was like, trying to act like, “Oh, no, man. Everyone’s got the keyboard. It’s great for typing and chat and stuff or whatever.” I’m like, “Dude….”
Jeff:
You’re the only one.
Casey:
“No. You are the only one,” right. Except that it turns out his friend, Raj, also had one.
Jeff:
Wow.
Casey:
I’m like, “Okay, you guys have your own little keyboard brigade here. It looks so dorky, though.”
Jeff:
What’s awesome is…
Casey:
It’s like drinking through a straw. It’s not possible to do in a cool way, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like…
Jeff:
You’re like…
Casey:
Yeah, exactly. “I defy you to use…”
Jeff:
Especially when your lips are reaching for it.
Casey:
Yeah, totally. It’s like, “Good luck looking manly typing on that little keyboard,” right?
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
It’s not gonna happen. It’s right in that uncomfortable place between big keyboard and tiny keyboard.
Jeff:
Right. And if you have that…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You’re chatting really fast and then you’re literally waiting for 10 minutes for the other person…
Casey:
Yeah… Here’s the best part, though, this is the thing that’s like… You know, it just underscores the fact that Microsoft these days, you know, the people show up for work and just sit there, you know. They just fucking eat the free soda and popcorn and just fuck off and send emails to each other, have meetings, and then leave. And that’s a day in the life of every single person there. It’s like the onscreen keyboard, not QWERTY. No QWERTY. Alphabetical order on the onscreen keyboard.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
The keyboard that’s on the joystick, QWERTY. So you are looking…
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
At a joystick that has a keyboard on it that is not the same layout as the one on the screen, right…
Jeff:
Perfect.
Casey:
And also, the one on the screen, no one can fucking use because no one who’s ever learned to type is gonna know where the keys are. You have to go like, “Wait a minute. Okay, in alphabetical order, P is gonna be somewhere kind of over here, I guess…”
Jeff:
In the middle…
Casey:
Yes. It’s like… It’s the worst thing ever.
Jeff:
I know.
Casey:
Better yet, they have, like, “Oh, yeah, CAPS… To write a capital letter, you push down on the left thumbstick, right?” It’s like, “Goddamn it, you people. Like, what…”
Jeff:
For upper case, press down.
Casey:
Yeah. But I’ll tell you what. I never thought they’d be beat, you know. I was like, “You win,” right. I was like, “You fucking win. No one can ever make an onscreen keyboard worse than this. I mean, you have owned it. You have taken it all the way to shit,” right? But they got owned. They got owned on their own service by Konami. If you go out there and you buy a game… Well, don’t buy it… If you download the trial game of Coffee Time Crosswords, okay?
Jeff:
Oh, my God.
Casey:
Coffee Time Crosswords.
Jeff:
You really play every game, don’t you?
Casey:
I play every single thing that is available on the Xbox. I just cue them up and I play through them. Between that and Game Fly, I try to play basically… You know, I try to play at least 5 minutes of every game that’s released that anyone’s ever heard of just so I know, you know.
Jeff:
You’re gonna need the [ 2 Nut Day ] for games soon…
Casey:
Yeah. I am getting backed up a little bit, it’s true.
Jeff:
It’s just like, damn it…
Casey:
But I try to… Anyway, Coffee Time Crosswords…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I shit you not, Jeff, the input device for this crosswords game, which is letters, obviously…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
The way that they… The onscreen keyboard is a circular dial, right. So you click on a crossword square and it comes up with a circle with the letters arranged around the circle.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Okay? Now, how might you think, with 2 analog sticks, you would pick a letter from the circle? They came up with you pull the stick to the left and it goes like, “Clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink …” around the circle…
Jeff:
Oh, wow.
Casey:
“Clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink, clink …” It’s not analog, right, it’s just like…
Jeff:
So you just don’t point at the letter?
Casey:
No, you can’t point at the letter. No. So like, if you’re at A and you need to enter, you know, F, you have to go, “Clink, clink, clink, clink, clink,” and pick it, right…
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
It takes forever. Here’s the best part. Apparently, they were like, “Well, it’s too small if we put all the letters on one wheel…”
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
So only half the alphabet is on the wheel.
Jeff:
No. Holy shit.
Casey:
The other half the alphabet, you have to push a button to flip the wheel over. It’s amazing. I looked at this and I was like, “This is the best thing I’ve ever seen.” I’m like…
Jeff:
Does it go to M or does M start the second one?
Casey:
Yeah…
Jeff:
’Cos M’s 13 so it’s halfway through the…
Casey:
I think it may be it goes up to M, I think.
Jeff:
I see. Wow.
Casey:
Like, L is the… No, L I think is the last one and M through… Yeah. I don’t know. It was awesome.
Jeff:
Holy shit.
Casey:
It was unbelievably cool.
Jeff:
That’s pretty good. That reminds me of that Sudoku game you gave me…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Where they let you… You know, in each box, they let you put the numbers that are still possible in there…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
But the numbers were too small to fit 9 of them in there so they let you put 6. And then, like, just choose the 6.
Casey:
Wild.
Jeff:
It’s awesome. Anyway, I tried to buy it and then they said, “No, you can’t add this because it’s already been added.”
Casey:
What?
Jeff:
I’m like, “But it’s not on the list.”
Casey:
Wait, you can’t re-add a credit card?
Jeff:
After it’s been expired because they say, “You have this one already in there but it’s expired. Please call this number…”
Casey:
Oh…
Jeff:
Or go to Billing at Microsoft.com. So I go to Billing at Microsoft.com…
Casey:
Oh, for fuck’s sake.
Jeff:
And there’s a FAQ. “What do I do if my credit card is expired?” And it says, “Press the Billing Options…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“Find the credit card and say Update.” On this page, there is no button that says Billing Options, first off.
Casey:
Nice.
Jeff:
And there is a Billing Section that’s not Billing Options…
Casey:
Right, right.
Jeff:
But it’s this whole other section. You hit that, the credit card’s not listed. Even though they have it in their database as expired, they don’t list it.
Casey:
It’s not listed so you can’t actually pick it and update it.
Jeff:
Right. So I ended up having to use, like, the RAD credit card to buy “Braid”. It was so ridiculous…
Casey:
Well, Atman said he couldn’t buy because he’s in Japan.
Jeff:
They’ll probably start charging me for gold next month.
Casey:
Yes, probably.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Atman said he couldn’t do it because he’s in Japan and the credit card won’t wigged out or something. It was like, “Oh, US credit card in Japan, no. They must’ve been stolen.”
Jeff:
Damn it.
Casey:
So it’s like, yeah, how much money is John losing right now from people who want to buy “Braid” and Microsoft won’t fucking let them?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
What the Christ?
Jeff:
It’s just so crazy because that’s what you’re paying them the 30% for.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
It’s not like a credit card company where you pay 3%.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
You pay 30% for them to run these charges.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
But anyway, even with all that, it’s still worth it. Everybody should buy a copy of “Braid”.
Casey:
Yeah. If you are able…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
If Microsoft will let you, definitely buy that game.
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
If not, then I guess buy it when it comes out in the PC, which should be later this year. Here’s another thing we should do. We need a section on the podcast webpage that’s your links so that it’s just like… Stop sending them to me…
Jeff:
No. Because then you won’t go to them. You’ll…
Casey:
Yes, that is exactly the point.
Jeff:
Okay, that’s not the point.
Casey:
No. That’s the point. That is exactly the point.
Jeff:
Because the only point for me sending those to you is because you will go to them even though you know they’re probably shit. You still go to them.
Casey:
Not all of them.
Jeff:
You go to most of them.
Casey:
Sometimes I’m just like…
Jeff:
“I can’t do it. I don’t have it in me.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
When it comes in and says, “This is my new favorite animal,” that’s when I know it’s just like, don’t fucking open this.
Jeff:
That was the most awesome animal.
Casey:
I’m sure it was. It was…
Jeff:
You didn’t go to it?
Casey:
I went to it.
Jeff:
Okay. Wasn’t it an awesome animal?
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
Damn it. Alright. We’re gonna bring back a segment from the past that I love.
Casey:
You know what, let me tell you something, though, first before you say that. I want to break it down here for a second. Dig how crazy this is. I, as you know, as is obvious from the website… And we’ve talked about it on the podcast before… I end up listening to just absolutely ridiculous amounts of non-fiction when I’m working.
Jeff:
But not programming, only when you’re working on art.
Casey:
Right, when working on art. Now, here was an interesting thing that I was listening to today that I didn’t know is about Saudi Arabia.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And this was actually a book about Saudi Arabia because I don’t know very much about Saudi Arabia and I wanted to.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So I was listening to this. And as you know, Saudi Arabia is pretty much… I mean, it’s basically just a big oil well. I mean, that’s what it is, right? They’ve never done anything that anyone’s ever cared about except for having oil, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
There’s nothing else.
Jeff:
They’ll drift right back into the sand after they run out.
Casey:
Pretty much. And so, they have, for a long time… You know, basically this past century, you know, was the story of them becoming an oil super power, if you will, right. And one of the things about that is that they are well aware of the fact that all they have is oil. And they’re also well aware of the fact… You know, unlike Iran and Iraq who, although they sort of… People think of them as maybe having [ to turn us or ] something like that, they really don’t. Saudi Arabia got the fact that it’s like, at any time, the United States could decide to come in here and take all our shit. They knew that was the case. They had thought about that a lot and they were like, working on this… And I’ve never seen this talked about before but they actually have a just chillingly-extensive network of shit designed to prevent this from happening, right. Like, rolling into Iraq and taking their oil? Piece of cake, right? We didn’t seem to be able to figure out how to do it but not very difficult, right? Anyone who didn’t feel bad about killing everyone and taking all their shit…
Jeff:
Well, we did…
Casey:
Plundering the village… If you were going in to plunder Iraq, you could do it trivially. And we did that part trivially, right?
Jeff:
Right. Rolling in is easy.
Casey:
Rolling in is easy.
Jeff:
Occupation is always hard, right?
Casey:
Yeah. Well, no. I don’t think occupation is that hard if you’re a fucking Viking. If you’re like, “No, we killed everyone and we took their oil.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That’s easy.
Jeff:
The only way to do occupation is to do it with an iron grip.
Casey:
Yeah. Is hardcore, Roman-style.
Jeff:
Russian-style…
Casey:
Yeah, exactly. Anyway, so they knew that that was a very real possibility. And so, here’s… You know, I should premise this by saying nobody actually knows how much of this is true because of our televisions operation is so awesome. It’s only known that they have… They’ve either intercepted all this information or it was intentionally placed so people would think it was there… So it’s not… Nobody actually knows because they won’t let anyone go in and see their actual oil set-up. So nobody actually knows how much of it is true and how much of it is propaganda that they put out but in general, I guess they think that at least a fair amount of it is true. It’s certainly all plausible, I guess is the thing. So what they decided to do was they don’t think there’s any way they can possibly defend against a US attack, which is probably correct. So what they did is they basically rigged every single last thing in their entire oil pipeline with explosives that will detonate if they think they’re being attacked. They can basically, like… You know how we have, like, NURAD and we can launch nuclear weapons if we think there’s an emergency? They’ve got that but it’s basically a giant self-destruct button. And it’s not a self-destruct button that’s like, “blow up their refineries”. It’s like… They have, like, explosive devices designed to irradiate the oil, contaminate the soil. It’s like… They called it SE, like Scorched Earth, you know, for SE oil fields…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And so, if anyone rolls in there and tries to attack them, apparently it’s just… It’s all over. The oil field won’t be useful again for, like, 50 years. And the area will be completely uninhabitable. And I was like, “That sounds terrifying, especially if it goes off by mistake at some point,” right?
Jeff:
The dude that wrote that invented system…
Casey:
Oh, God
Jeff:
Like, had it off by one…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And then, “OH, damn it.” Well, you were going to bring back today a segment from long ago that I wanted to hear. And that’s some conversations you’ve had out in the world. ‘Cos I don’t go out in the world. I don’t like the world…
Casey:
No, you don’t.
Jeff:
And you bring me back stories…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And they terrify me and I retract… Whatever amount of… Going out in the world…
Casey:
I’m scaring you into it, is that what you’re saying?
Jeff:
Yeah. You’re scaring me straight…
Casey:
I’m scaring you…
Jeff:
You’re scaring me RAD because I stay at RAD…
Casey:
“Scared RAD: The Jeff Roberts Story”.
Jeff:
Or stay at the condo and I stay in my car.
Casey:
Alright. I can do that for you.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
So I was walking… This is kind of late at night, right. And it’s maybe 2 AM, let’s say…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Maybe later, maybe 3? Something like that… And I’m down, crossing over I-5 on Denny. So I’m just going over that overpass.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I’m kind of going down the street there.
Jeff:
It’s kind of a creepy area, actually.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
’Cos, I mean, that’s where the guys jump out over the freeway to commit suicide and stuff, that’s why.
Casey:
I’ve never seen that. Someone did that?
Jeff:
A lot, actually.
Casey:
Really?
Jeff:
That’s a popular place to jump off, right there.
Casey:
I’m there all the time. I’ve never seen that.
Jeff:
Just saying…
Casey:
Yeah. Conversations with Casey not as interesting… I guess I could’ve been even more interesting. Yeah, so I was going down there. And there was this girl there, right. And she was walking, like, in the opposite direction, right.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And we were chatting for whatever reason. And I guess… I’m not sure how to explain the conversation because, like, you know, at 3 in the morning, you’re talking to whatever… It’s like, weird, you know?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Who knows? So I’m not gonna try and pretend that there was some, like, rational way that this conversation went ‘cos it didn’t go rationally.
Jeff:
Okay. It didn’t start rational and turn weird? It was, right from the get-go…
Casey:
Yeah, exactly…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So basically, what this conversation was, she was coming back from someone’s house. They had been watching a movie. I don’t remember which movie it was but I remember it was actually a movie that I liked.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I can’t remember what it was, though. And she had been drinking. She was a little loopy.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But she was pretty much with it at this point, right? So she’s kind of “coming down”, if you will, like sobering up a little bit.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
But she was on her way back home because she is a bagel delivery person.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So in the early mornings, she drives around in a car, I guess, delivering bagels from a bakery.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So she was coming back from a place where they were watching a movie which I believe was how we’d gotten to the topic of the fact that she was in a movie.
Jeff:
Oh, okay.
Casey:
Okay. But it was not just “a movie”.
Jeff:
Okay, a big movie.
Casey:
It was a porn movie.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Alright?
Jeff:
How’d she bring that up to you? Was she embarrassed? Or it was just…
Casey:
She was very open about her participation in this porn movie, right.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So, I don’t know. I didn’t get the sense… I mean, she… I think she has been drinking, like I said.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So I think that probably helped.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
But on the other hand, just from talking to her, I didn’t get the sense that she wouldn’t be someone that would tell me about her porn movie if she was sober…
Jeff:
Anyway…
Casey:
I think the porn movie would’ve been something that she’d be okay talking with me about at pretty much any time.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Okay. Anyway, so she’s explaining the fact that she was in a porn movie.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
But it wasn’t just any porn movie, okay?
Jeff:
Oh, okay.
Casey:
It was a very specific porn movie. And I can’t remember the exact title but it was something along the lines of “Tapioca Zombie Fest 2000”, something like that…
Jeff:
“Tapioca Fest”…
Casey:
“Tapioca Zombie Fest 2000”.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Okay?
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
And it’s a movie about zombies and tapioca and shit…
Jeff:
Of course…
Casey:
Right? And apparently, it involved her having to be naked or with various, you know, items of clothing on that are not designed to cover anything but have other purposes like a ball gag was one of the things she brought up…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Other things like this… In a vat of tapioca along with the other co-stars and so on, okay?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Now, here’s the thing. She went out of her way also to mention that being in tapioca for a day or 2, filming this porno…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Her skin had never been softer, right…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
She was a fan of the tapioca. She was like, “If I need to exfoliate, fuck it. Just screw that. I’m just gonna get in a vat of tapioca…”
Jeff:
Of course.
Casey:
“And let that shit soak up, you know, and then we’re all good.” And I think she said it was playing in a festival that was coming up. I seem to remember that part…
Jeff:
Okay…
Casey:
And other things like this. So anyway, we… And then, yeah, we go our separate ways. Now, in my mind, I assume, right, that unless I go out of my way someday to find “Tapioca Zombie Fest 2000”…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I’m probably not gonna see that.
Jeff:
You’re not gonna run across it in your normal…
Casey:
I don’t think I’m gonna run across that, okay. I don’t think I know a store that I can go in that’s gonna have that film, okay. I don’t think that’s in the normal set…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Of… What am I gonna call it? If you went into a store that sells porn movies, right, the staples…
Jeff:
Are not there…
Casey:
It’s probably not gonna be in the staple, you know…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Of that…
Jeff:
Because some of them will have the zombie porn. Some of them will have tapioca porn…
Casey:
Right, but not both.
Jeff:
But not both.
Casey:
Right. That’s in the N2 category. Right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, you want your zombie porn? We’ve got that. Tapioca porn? We got that.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But tapioca-zombie, right, now you’re in the N2. Now you’re into “rabbit humps whatever”, right? “Rabbit humps cat” and so on… It’s like, now it’s an N2 problem and they don’t have the shelf space for that.
Jeff:
Did the zombies, like, walk around and instead of saying, “Brains,” they say, “Cock”?
Casey:
I don’t know. I have no idea. So the end of the story is on Thursday, Mr. Dave Moore…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Sent me an email, “Do you want to get lunch in the city?” And we were talking about the Seattle International Film Festival. And he was like, “Yeah, I saw a really terrible movie there.” And I was like SIFF is pretty much all terrible movies, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s just like people going because they want to go to a film festival, right?
Jeff:
Exactly.
Casey:
Which is basically all film festivals…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
For the most part except probably Sundance or [inaudible 22:48] maybe. But even there, like, 90% of the films probably fucking blow, you know what I mean?
Jeff:
Right. Totally.
Casey:
I mean, one thing that’s true about film is there’s not, like, this massive cache of hidden gems out there.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like if a film is any fucking good at all, it gets mass distribution pretty much, period. Right? Sometimes, that’s not true but almost always.
Jeff:
Passed from festival to festival.
Casey:
Festival…
Jeff:
In a desperate attempt…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
To improve it.
Casey:
Exactly. So anyway, he says something like that. And he’s like, “Oh, one time I actually saw this thing called ‘Hump Fest’.” I’m like, “’Hump Fest’? What’s that?” He’s like, “It’s this weird thing they do where it’s basically… It’s in Seattle. It’s a porn film festival but it’s basically a collection of porn shorts or something…”
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
“That they put together that all of the footage is burned, destroyed, after it is shown.”
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
In an attempt to make it okay for people to do porn films so that they’re just… You’re in a porn film for a weekend…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Not for the rest of your life, right? You see what I’m saying.
Jeff:
I see. Uh-huh…
Casey:
So to try to de-stigmatize it a little bit there. Whatever. Yeah. Exactly.
Jeff:
I’m sure that’s…
Casey:
Right. Yeah.
Jeff:
I feel much better.
Casey:
Oh, me, too. Yeah. Like, I’m taking my pants off right now. Sure.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
No. Point being…
Jeff:
Sign me up.
Casey:
That’s the idea anyway. And I was like, “Oh, ‘Hump Fest’. Oh, yeah. I once talked to this girl who was in a porn movie that was at a film festival here. It’s called ‘Tapioca Zombie Fest 2000’.” And he was like, “Oh, yeah. That was in it.”
Jeff:
No way. You’re shitting me.
Casey:
I’m like, “Are you kidding me?” He’s like, “No, no. That was one that was in it.” And I was like, “Are you sure it’s the same one?” He’s like, “Well, I don’t know.” And it’s like “There’s a lot of tapioca?” And he’s like, “Yeah.” And I’m like, “Was there a ball gag?” And he’s like, “No, I don’t think there was a ball gag.” And it’s like, “Okay. It was a different one because she said there was a ball gag.” He’s like, “No, wait. There was a ball gag.” It’s because I guess, you know, she becomes a zombie and they still want to have sex and stuff but she’d eat his brains or whatever so they’d have to ball gag… It’s like…
Jeff:
Ah, I see.
Casey:
Right? It’s like just to keep their relationship kind of a thing. It’s very sweet, it sounded like from what he said… Anyway, so it turns out that both Dave and tomorrow, who went with him, and Luis… They all went (and maybe some other people) to this “Hump Fest” thing…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
And had their little “Hump Fest” and saw “Tapioca Zombie Fest 2000” despite all of my assumptions that it would never come back around again…
Jeff:
Be seen…
Casey:
And that I’d never talk to anyone who’s ever heard of this film…
Jeff:
Oh, my God.
Casey:
It wasn’t true. So now, you can just ask. Just ask them. I mean, they may not be able to remember it exactly, right. It probably wasn’t their favorite film in the series, I’m guessing.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
But maybe they’ll know more about some of the questions you have, like what do zombies say and so on…
Jeff:
I don’t like any of this story…
Casey:
Well, there you go. You asked me for weird conversations…
Jeff:
I’m staying…
Casey:
Good luck getting a weirder conversation than that.
Jeff:
No, that part, you…
Casey:
It was too weird was the problem, right?
Jeff:
No, no. You did exactly what…
Casey:
I’m freaking you out?
Jeff:
No. You did exactly what I wanted which is keep me under wraps. Just keep me out of the world. That’s exactly… I don’t want to know what goes on out there with the bagels. I don’t know what she’s doing when she’s drunk with the bagels…
Casey:
Well, that’s what me and Dave said afterwards. We were like, okay, you’ve got someone who delivers bagels for a living, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Bagel delivery girl. Hot bagel delivery girl, okay. That pretty much writes itself. Why did you need zombies and tapioca, okay?
Jeff:
You’re complicating it. Guys, simple thoughts.
Casey:
What’s the problem here? Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It doesn’t make any sense ‘cos I’m thinking it’s like, yeah, you’re totally… That’s like, the David Lynch porn, right? It’s like, “Why can’t you just do sort of like a, you know, slice of life kind of porn?”
Jeff:
Exactly.
Casey:
You know?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
She’s delivering bagels, you know. The bagels are hot.
Jeff:
They’re toasty.
Casey:
They’re steamy. Yeah, exactly. They’re steaming up the windows.
Jeff:
Awesome. Awesome. So your site is done.
Casey:
Well, I mean… No, it’s something that I assume I’ll be constantly improving for many months.
Jeff:
I mean, it’s not… You go to Casey Time, you go to Molly Rocket, you get the new shit.
Casey:
Yeah, everything’s moved over but there’s just a lot of stuff still to turn on that I… You know…
Jeff:
Do overtime?
Casey:
Mhmm…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
More importantly, get the fuck rid of Apache and PHP…
Jeff:
C’mon, you like LAMP…
Casey:
And all this crap… LAMP is such a piece of shit.
Jeff:
I hate LAMP.
Casey:
LAMP is the worst… Oh, MySQL? Ugh. Goddamn it, dude.
Jeff:
So we…
Casey:
Piece of shit.
Jeff:
You were working on that for about 2 weeks. I was redoing our website at the same time.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So every day, we would complain about how absolutely retarded HTML is.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
It’s amazing.
Casey:
But not just HTML.
Jeff:
It’s amazing.
Casey:
Basically web…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Here’s what the internet is. The internet is resetting your computer capabilities to, like, 1985/4?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I mean, I don’t even know… It’s not really as full-featured as a Macintosh in some ways.
Jeff:
Well, it’s even…
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
But the development environments are way worse than that.
Casey:
Oh, far…
Jeff:
Right?
Casey:
You don’t even have a debugger so way, way worse, right. Oh, infinitely worse.
Jeff:
It is ridiculous.
Casey:
I mean, you go on there and you use any “Web 2.0” fucking application, right. And it’s like, oh, it’s got draw sorting bugs. And where’s the curser go? And like, oh, God. I’m in some other window select now so none of the key shortcuts work. And like, okay, it’s super slow and it can’t remember anything and it’s like, “Oh, my Lord!” It’s just… Usability is terrible.
Jeff:
I’m just like… Yeah. I mean, the Web 2 stuff…
Casey:
It’s bullshit.
Jeff:
As soon as somebody breaks my back button, I’m like, “You suck.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But I’m talking more about just writing the stuff…
Casey:
Okay, but actually making this shit is a whole… Yeah, that’s a whole ‘nother…
Jeff:
It is so ridiculous.
Casey:
I mean, I don’t even know what’s going on.
Jeff:
It’s like, half the time, it doesn’t do what they say it does.
Casey:
No. No. Not half the time. All the time. All the time.
Jeff:
It’s awesome. And they make…
Casey:
Never does what… It’s like… They have specs. They have so many RFC’s and specifications and working groups. Not a single fucking line is true.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It is complete garbage. You want to know what the spec is?
Jeff:
It’s whatever the fucking browser does.
Casey:
It’s whatever someone wrote into Mozilla, okay.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That’s the spec.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
And let me tell you, it has nothing to do with that document you guys fucking spilled coffee on for 50 years or whatever the hell you were doing with it…
Jeff:
CSS-ifying the website…
Casey:
Unreal…
Jeff:
Was just absurd.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You’re just like, “Who would write anything this way?”
Casey:
CSS is garbage.
Jeff:
I don’t understand.
Casey:
Garbage. Doesn’t work at all. The capabilities of it are… It’s a layout language.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right? And it can’t lay shit out.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, “Okay, float this thing left,” right…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Float it right… That’s all you get. That’s all you get. You can’t say, “I want 3 things that are, like, equi-sized…
Jeff:
Yeah. Right.
Casey:
In a row…
Jeff:
Let’s talk about that.
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
You’re making the spec for something that’s the web. You have 8 million websites at the point that you’re creating this.
Casey:
Yeah, tons. Yeah.
Jeff:
Everything is 3 columns.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Something on the left…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
The content in the middle, shit on the right it’s usually at.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Every single site’s that.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
You make something that can only do 2 columns by default.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
You’re like, awesome… And not only that, you say, “Um, yeah. I want to float this right,” which doesn’t matter what that does.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
It affects what happens to everything else.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Like, why do you want to describe something on this…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
That affects something else?
Casey:
No, it’s…
Jeff:
It’s like, “Are you guys mental?”
Casey:
That’s a good point. It’s like, “You’re specifying float left in this thing’s button. But what that really means is that everything after it floats right.”
Jeff:
Yeah, exactly. It’s like, what’s the matter with you?
Casey:
To the right of it.
Jeff:
Right. And then you’re like, “Okay, I got some floating shit.”
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
“I need to close those floats.”
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
There’s not a way to do it.
Casey:
No, you can’t.
Jeff:
You can’t close it. You’re like, “Well, you put in another bit of typography to close it.” You’re like, “Well, if you wanted to do that, I’d use a fucking table.” It’s so bad.
Casey:
Yeah. They’re like, “Oh, you know, you shouldn’t… Table’s deprecated now.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“You’re not supposed to use table.”
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
It’s like, “Oh, so I assume you put table support in the CSS?” No.
Jeff:
No, of course not.
Casey:
It is incapable of making a table. They shipped all layout language that cannot duplicate the thing it was replacing.
Jeff:
Right, it’s just amazing.
Casey:
How is that possible?
Jeff:
Yeah, I…
Casey:
I mean, at the very least, you would have a capability… It should just be a thing that’s like, hey, obviously, if you just took an existing website, removed all the tags and replaced them with DIV, the CSS…
Jeff:
Could do it.
Casey:
Should then be able to, if each one has a unique ID, replicate the layout exactly.
Jeff:
Exactly. Right.
Casey:
If it can’t do that, you need to be dragged out back, shot in the head, and thrown into a very shallow hole so that when it eventually has flooding, you’re washed out to sea, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
As far as I’m concerned, you are fired.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And yet…
Jeff:
It’s awesome.
Casey:
Every single thing in the CSS is that way. It can’t do even half the shit that a table can do…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, “What the fuck is your problem?” I go on these websites. They’re like, “How to do a 2-column layout/ How to do a 3-column layout,” right? They float something left and float another thing right and then hardcode the margin.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They’re like, “Okay, the margin is 256 pixels to prevent this thing from wrapping around the bottom of that thing…”
Jeff:
Totally. Right.
Casey:
Because that’s what it would otherwise do. It’s like, okay, we got rid of all the tabulation capabilities and we introduced basically what is an illuminated manuscript.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We introduce the button that does illuminated manuscript and nothing else. So if you want to do anything else, you’ve got to hardcode the margin. Sorry, babe. What can I tell you?
Jeff:
It’s amazing.
Casey:
Let me give you a tip. A layout language is the thing that tells you shit like, “I would like there to be about 4 points between this and the thing to its right. I would like this to only wrap if at least 2 lines or more…” That’s a layout language, okay?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
There’s been, like, 30 years of computer graphics research on these languages. Ones from 1970X are more capable than the one that you shipped in, like, 1998.
Jeff:
It’s awesome.
Casey:
What is going on? Did we just take the most retarded idiots that we had and put them all on the web while everyone else did something?
Jeff:
Well, I think it’s our fault.
Casey:
What happened?
Jeff:
I think it’s our fault?
Casey:
Who’s fault?
Jeff:
All the good programmers…
Casey:
Are doing something else?
Jeff:
Well, when all the good programmers ended up doing other stuff, right?
Casey:
Yeah, that’s probably true.
Jeff:
They didn’t end up doing…
Casey:
John Carmack was not working on the web?
Jeff:
Right. And it wouldn’t have taken a lot of his time.
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
Like, this is not even stage 1 of his rocket…
Casey:
I know, yeah…
Jeff:
And he could’ve fixed the whole fucking thing.
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
Right? This is little stuff, little tiny things where you’re just like, “That’s retarded.”
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
You read about… You know, when you read about these guys writing layout widgets for IE and stuff and they’re like, “You know, we have 50 people working on it for a year.” And you’re like, “That’s insane.”
Casey:
You’re like, “Okay, that is ridiculous.”
Jeff:
But it is that way…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Because it’s so completely fucking random that they’re all just throwing code in there and then patching around it and making old websites work…
Casey:
Right, it’s kind of like… It’s like natural language processing, really, if you think about it.
Jeff:
Yeah, exactly. Right.
Casey:
It’s that kind of problem. It’s like, “We don’t really have the spec for this. What we have is a lot of web pages who all expect something to happen and we just have to fucking test it.”
Jeff:
Right. Yeah.
Casey:
Test and test and test… And then hope that, like…
Jeff:
And then patch. And then patch.
Casey:
Each patch we do doesn’t regress…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So there’s got to be people just sitting there, watching the regressions, you know…
Jeff:
It’s awesome. I…
Casey:
It’s well beyond awesome.
Jeff:
I fought the whole IE7 thing for about a day before I realized that you could turn off Quirks Mode in IE6 and 7 because it uses a different box model…
Casey:
Oh, right. Yeah, I forgot that part.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
The Doc type bullshit?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Where it’s like, “Let me give you a little pointer here, alright, how about we say that there are some versions, okay, to HTML and they are, like, 3, 4, and 5. Okay? So when you’re writing a document, you’re HTML 4 or HTML 5…”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“Or we could make it be that what HTML is this? It’s Doc type ! “W3C-9 transitional implication.DTD…” Like, something that’s like…
Jeff:
With the website…
Casey:
What the fuck is that?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, “No, this is supposed to be a standard that will archive the world’s goddamned content…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
For like, 50 years.
Jeff:
Not so much…
Casey:
There should be, like, a fucking version. This is version 3. And there’s version 4. And that’s it.
Jeff:
That’s awesome.
Casey:
There shouldn’t be, like, whatever fucking website you want to point to is the version of the content… It’s like, no. Standards are not about having 8 billion possibilities even though somehow that’s what we’ve degenerated to. Standards are supposed to be about, “Here’s how it’s gonna work.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Just one way.
Jeff:
Yeah. Here’s the best one. So we had IE6 come out and it, by default, runs in Quirks Mode.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Which is code for…
Casey:
Which is hilarious because they’re all in Quirks Mode.
Jeff:
Microsoft… Right, which is “Microsoft fucked up the box model”.
Casey:
Right. Yeah.
Jeff:
They include padding in the width and it’s supposed to not be in the width.
Casey:
And it’s not supposed to be, yeah.
Jeff:
Alright. So that’s called Quirks Mode. You can put it into something the call Strict Mode which is, like, doesn’t have a fucking bug in it. My bad.
Casey:
Wait a second.
Jeff:
Wait a second.
Casey:
But you should also point out the fact that how awesome is it that the spec mandates that padding is not in the box?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
“How wide is this?” “It’s 250 pixels.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“What’s the padding?” “10.” “Oh, then it’s really 250 pixels.”
Jeff:
Right. Well, the best thing about that is…
Casey:
Okay…
Jeff:
Padding has the background color of the thing that’s in the width. So like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Padding should be in the width.
Casey:
Yeah, right. It’s like…
Jeff:
It doesn’t make any sense.
Casey:
Yeah, exactly. But the thing itself is not that wide.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So you end up, like, with your website usually has some shit sticking off the end. You’re like, “Where the hell did that come from?”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It turns out it’s because the padding…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Added some shit on the end and then filled it.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s like, padding… That’s not padding…
Jeff:
So I ended up… Everything I did, I never had a DIV that had both padding and width in it ever.
Casey:
Right, ‘cos you’d have to double DIV it.
Jeff:
Right. You always had to have a container to do that…
Casey:
So awesome…
Jeff:
’Cos otherwise, on 5, my website went like out, like, pre-IE6…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Went like, way in the fuck off the screen.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Anyway, so they have Quirks Mode, Strict Mode, then 7.0 got even stricter. 8.0 is supposed to be very strict. And then what they did in 8.0 was a lot of shit doesn’t work. So now, there’s another sub-Meta tag that’s Microsoft only…
Casey:
Oh…
Jeff:
That lets you make 8 run in 7 Mode…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
So you can set Strict, Quirks, and then, in 8…
Casey:
Awesome…
Jeff:
Also, 8, 7, or 5.5. You can run the browser in 5.5 mode. You’re like…
Casey:
The browser’s gotta be like, [inaudible 38:05]
Jeff:
“Does anybody…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Right. And also, it’s like, “What is that tag for?” It’s like, “Oh, I loaded up my website. It doesn’t work anymore. Oh, you know what, I’ll just turn it back to the old browser automatically.” It’s like, this is so fucked up.
Casey:
Well, you want to know what’s even better than that is if you look at the modern profile of a website, like you go to CNN.com or something and you look at how much memory is actually transferred, it’s like 500K…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s almost like a megabyte, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So at this point, they’ve managed to create a markup language whose footprint tends to be larger than if you just sent a goddamn image, right?
Jeff:
Right, right.
Casey:
Or better yet, just a PDF. Like, the PDF of the page is smaller than the marked-up version of the page.
Jeff:
And it will look the same all the time…
Casey:
Yeah, and it would look right…
Jeff:
And you could fucking print it.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
It’s like…
Casey:
And it would work. I don’t know. Ugh, it’s disgusting.
Jeff:
Well, we could have another rant about Adobe totally fucking the entire unit…
Casey:
Oh, sure.
Jeff:
By keeping PDF locked up 10 years ago but…
Casey:
Right, right. Yeah. No, that’s all… But it’s amazing. I mean, I just… I… I don’t know…
Jeff:
You got through it faster than me.
Casey:
I really don’t know what to say.
Jeff:
I ended up spending almost a week fucking with all of the Quirk stuff.
Casey:
Well, CSS and that shit was… I didn’t do anything advanced. My website’s pretty Spartan right now so…
Jeff:
Did you do any tables at all or were you able to get…
Casey:
No, there’s no tables in there.
Jeff:
That’s cool.
Casey:
So I’ll tell you the one thing that just blew my mind. You know, I was just looking at it and I was like, “I just don’t understand. I just don’t.” So you know you can set something to relative positioning, right?
Jeff:
Oh, God.
Casey:
So it’s like, something on a page, right, I want to make it move somewhere else, right?
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
So for example, I want to have an image but I want to put the text over the image…
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
Okay? Now, of course, there’s no way to say overlap, right?
Jeff:
Right. No.
Casey:
They didn’t have a, like, “these 2 things draw on top of each other”.
Jeff:
No,
Casey:
Didn’t have it. There’s like… Why on earth…
Jeff:
Would you want to do that?
Casey:
Would you want to draw something on top of something else? Right? I don’t know. Is the fact that, like, the alpha channel has been around for, like, 30-fucking years any indication? And it’s, like, the most popular thing that’s ever been, right? It’s like, it’s used in every compositing application in the history of time, right? Do you think you might want to draw something on top of something else? Have you ever opened an application that a designer uses?
Jeff:
That’s awesome.
Casey:
Have you ever opened one and looked at how much shit they stack up on top of each other? Right? It’s like, it’s a fundamental operation of design and they’re like, “No.”
Jeff:
“No, we don’t do that.”
Casey:
“But what we do do is we offer you 2 ways of getting that effect. One is absolute positioning…”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Which means that, “Fuck it. You better know exactly where on the page this thing’s gonna be.”
Jeff:
“You give us a pixel coordinate.”
Casey:
It’s like, if you had more text than you’re expecting, sorry.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
If the image turned out bigger, if the user changed the text size, it’s just fucked, right?
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
So basically, the site will fail at some point, right? It’s like, you’re just fucked. And that’s what I’m using right now. And it’s just like it’s just waiting to fail, right? It’s just… The other option…
Jeff:
Countdown to fail.
Casey:
Yeah. Countdown to fail. It’s like, “We’ve engineered failure in so you don’t have… You don’t have to fuck up your website. We pre-fucked it up for you.”
Jeff:
We’ll do it for you. Right.
Casey:
Yeah. Or relative positioning, right. And relative positioning says, “Well, I’ll take it where it was…”
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
So that it can work with different… And I’m just gonna move it, right? I’ll move it from there.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Great. That’s exactly what I want. Unfortunately, they neglected to include a tag which says, “Don’t leave a giant empty, gaping hole where the thing was.” But they do. They fucking lay everything out as if the thing was there and then move it.
Jeff:
And move it.
Casey:
It’s like, “That’s not what you want. You want to just know where the anchor was.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
What you want to be… Where would you have put this thing, don’t include it in the layout. Just tell me where you would have put the anchor…
Jeff:
Right. So you get this…
Casey:
And move it from there.
Jeff:
Right. You get this crazy background right in the middle where your text would have been if it wasn’t…
Casey:
They’re so goddamned retarded.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I’m just like I’m… Seriously, I want to meet these people. I have never met any… I mean, I have never seen anything where I wanted to meet the people… Like, I yell and scream about Microsoft all the time.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They don’t even… They can’t touch these people. The people who made this CSS garbage and whate--… Like, they can’t touch them. No one can. No one can touch these people. They are the worst.
Jeff:
You told me the best thing which is relative positioning is simply to fix other fuckups.
Casey:
Oh, right. That’s all they can use it for now, really.
Jeff:
Well, here’s what I used it for…
Casey:
Because it’s like, “Oh, I did all these layout things and this thing’s, like, 3 pixels higher than some other thing for no reason I can possibly discern.”
Jeff:
Right, relative [ picks 3 ] [inaudible 42:34]
Casey:
So you go relative…
Jeff:
Top 3, right.
Casey:
Negative 3 or on 3 or something, right.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You just push it down. Furthermore, it’s not like these fuckers can open up a copy of Adobe Illustrator and just look at what the fuck is there.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, we already know what the things are that you use to layout a page.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Open up a page layout application…
Jeff:
And just do that.
Casey:
And clone that shit.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, whatever’s on there…
Jeff:
Page Maker shipped in ‘93, right?
Casey:
Yes! Any one of them. I’ll take anything. Quirk Express, Page Maker, In Design…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I don’t care what you pick. They’re all so far ahead of what these idiots…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Made for HTML 4.0. It’s the 4th fucking version of this shit.
Jeff:
Right. 20 years after these packages [ shipped ].
Casey:
4.0, Jeff!
Jeff:
Well, they’re not…
Casey:
What were they doing for the other 3 versions?
Jeff:
I like the stuff where I have absolutely… When I get in a situation where I have absolutely no idea why something is the color that it is…
Casey:
Oh, that’s the best…
Jeff:
And you’re like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You’re just… You’re completely… I have stuff in there where I’m like dot type, LILILILI… Like, 3 levels of LI’s because I don’t know why it was that color but I kept putting LI’s and all of a sudden it matched.
Casey:
It worked? Wow.
Jeff:
And I’m like, “Fine. I don’t care anymore.”
Casey:
That’s awesome.
Jeff:
’Cos I was very, at the beginning… I was trying to do it real…
Casey:
You tried to be really clean?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I didn’t have… My CSS was in the middle.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
By the end, I’m like, “Fuck it. I have so many fucking tabs. My CSS is bigger than most of my fucking pages now.” ‘Cos I’m like, “Fuck it. I just…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“Just make my page… I want to not do this anymore.”
Casey:
Totally.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
No, that’s it. It just wears you down eventually.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Well, you know what’s awesome about it, too, is it’s like… It doesn’t support the concept of referring to anything else on the page.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s like… You know, it’s a layout language. If I say “center”, wouldn’t it make sense that I would tell you what I want you to center relative to?
Jeff:
Yeah, exactly.
Casey:
Center me relative to this thing, right?
Jeff:
Right, especially because you forced us to use… If I use an ID on my DIV…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s required to be unique.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
So…
Casey:
No, but even if it’s not required to be unique… So what, just use the last one. Whatever.
Jeff:
Oh, yeah… I just…
Casey:
It doesn’t matter. It’s just like… You can’t do anything.
Jeff:
You have the concept there and you can’t use it. Yeah.
Casey:
It doesn’t make any sense. It would literally take a fucking weekend for someone to kick out a spec that would blow this thing away. I mean, the first thing you shat out, right…
Jeff:
I know.
Casey:
Would be so much better than this… It’s unreal. But you know… Okay, so that’s just the presentation of the page, right. PHP — worst language ever, right? It’s like, PHP I competing, at this point, with [ CDEP ] for worst fucking language, okay? It is the worst goddamned language.
Jeff:
[ CDEP ] rules.
Casey:
That MySQL, right, and the whole shared hosting environment like MySQL’s on a separate machine shit…
Jeff:
Oh, it is, really. You’re hosting like…
Casey:
I mean, okay. My game, right… I’ll do many thousands of queries a frame.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay? If I did a thousand MySQL queries, a thousand MySQL queries would probably take, like, a minute, right? It’s like, I have a page for editing on my thing when I go to edit mode…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That does, like, a lot of queries. It does maybe a hundred queries/two hundred queries…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It literally takes about 25 seconds…
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
For this page. You could loop through every element in the database many, many, many times, right. But no, I mean, it’s like, “Oh, it probably sends a fucking packet over to SQL server…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
With a string in it…
Jeff:
Every row’s [ in a packet ]…
Casey:
Parses that shit…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Patch it back up. Sends it back over… Like, oh, it probably acts it back again… It’s like, this is not a sustainable model for running things.
Jeff:
Right. Yep.
Casey:
You are all fired. You are fucking fired. LAMP is so goddamn fired.
Jeff:
I hate that name.
Casey:
The only thing that’s good about LAMP is the L. The AMP blows. The AMP fucking blows so hard. Goddamn it.
Jeff:
You’ll take the Linux in LAMP but nothing else.
Casey:
Oh, here’s the other awesome thing. HTML file uploads. Yeah. HTML file uploads.
Jeff:
The Dave thing?
Casey:
Good luck getting HTML file uploads to fucking work reliably, right. We are…
Jeff:
Oh, because they time out?
Casey:
Here we go. Upload a 300 megabyte file with HTTP. HTTP is the most recent protocol. You should not have to drop back to FTP to upload a 300 megabyte file. It’s uploading a fucking file, people. How do you screw that up? You send a packet that says how big the file is.
Jeff:
You wait until all the…
Casey:
Where’s the timeout coming in? Why is there a timeout at all? It’s like, you know how big the file is. I’m still sending it to you. What did you… You’re just mad I took too long? You’re like, “You used to be able to send a file faster than that, sweety. It’s like, “What the fuck?” I don’t get it. I’m just, like, amazed. It’s like every time you turn the corner, it’s like some fucking idiot slaps you in the face and just goes, “Oh, man. It’s so fucked up.”
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
Ugh. I had the worst experience with that shit.
Jeff:
Yeah. Well, you made it through alive.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So like, here’s the thing. All that shit is getting fucking vaporized someday.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Vaporized and replaced with C. No question. And fuck Apache. Apache can fucking suck my nuts. I’m gonna just have it be a C program that opens a goddamned port 80 socket…
Jeff:
Just suck it down.
Casey:
And answers the fucking posts itself. Jesus.
Jeff:
I don’t feel like any of the people that were building all this stuff that stacked on top of each other had any idea of how quick sandy it is. So he just built this incredible infrastructure all on top of crap and just wait for the day it blows up.
Casey:
Yeah. Well, here’s the thing is that the internet’s interesting in that way, right? It’s kind of like you have… I mean, I don’t know what… It’s like geniuses showed up and poured the foundation and fucking, like, mentally retarded amputees showed up to build the house. Right? It’s like… The Xerox PARC guys that invented Ethernet and the Bell Labs guys who wired the country with all this shit and the fiber backbone… Like, those people used to be really hardcore.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right? I mean, everything I’ve read about that, I was like, “Wow,” you know? So you have this, like, amazing transport layer that allows all the computers in the fucking world to talk to each other. Okay. They can talk… My computer can talk to, like, Atman in Japan, okay…
Jeff:
Quickly.
Casey:
In milliseconds…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
MySQL cannot answer something on the same subnet in less than 30 seconds. Like, what is going on here? As soon as software comes into play…
Jeff:
We’re doomed.
Casey:
As soon as the software guys show up, it’s over. Right? It’s like, it was too easy, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s too easy to type shit into a computer and have something happen. They’re just like, “Oh, yeah. It’s awesome. We’re so fucking done. It’s gonna be great.” So Jeff, this is our 26th podcast.
Jeff:
I know. Holy shit.
Casey:
That’s a lot of podcasts.
Jeff:
That’s a lot of audio…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Material…
Casey:
I have to admit, I am somewhat surprised that we’ve managed to stick with it this long.
Jeff:
Yeah, I know.
Casey:
Because we definitely have different podcasting styles. There’s no question about that.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
And so, the fact that we’re able to, like, keep together and constantly moving forward on the podcast…
Jeff:
Yes, always…
Casey:
Most of the time…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Is good.
Jeff:
Most of the time… I mean…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Should we talk about that? You know, the last…
Casey:
I mean, I think… I guess some of the newer listeners to the podcast probably never got… You know, weren’t around at the time when we had the 2 separate casts…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Don’t know probably much about those separate casts…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And I assume that… I imagine most of the audio is gone from those now. Is that even available? I don’t know what happened to it but…
Jeff:
Well, actually… You know, I knew at some point we’d probably want to save those masters because they’ll be important in the history of this podcast.
Casey:
Sure. Yeah.
Jeff:
So yeah, I actually put together kind of a little bit of each of the shows so people could…
Casey:
Serious?
Jeff:
Yeah. So people could see what it’s like.
Casey:
That’s awesome.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
We should… Do you have it? Do you have it up?
Jeff:
You wanna do it?
Casey:
Yeah, let’s do that now. Roll back.’z
Casey:
Hello, everybody. Welcome to “The World in Review: The Podcast That Matters”. And today, I’ve got a really great set of things to go over with you guys. I know that everyone out there is looking for ways they could make a difference and I have put together just a great set of things for you to look into and read about and get involved with. I want to thank Sean for writing in to the podcast last week. He was the only one who did. And the rest of you could learn by that example. I honestly don’t really know why no one’s been writing in. You could at least write in if you’re not gonna actually help at all with anything. You know, write in. It’s not that hard.
Jeff:
Hello. Welcome to “The Jeff Show starring Jeff” where we talk about all the awesome things that happened in the last week. I’m trying to catch up on my emails. I got a ton of links that everybody’s been sending in, which is awesome. And watching all those videos has proven time-consuming. And Sean’s gonna help me with that but we should have them all categorized soon. And yeah, I appreciate everybody checking in.
Casey:
So I know a lot of you probably are sorry that you couldn’t make it on Saturday to the “Defective by Design” protest out in front of the Microsoft convention. But you missed one hell of a protest. There were at least 30 people there. Well, there were 28 people there and 2 photographers. And, I mean, it was awesome. They were in these suits and they got a ton of shots of them, like, sort of around the opening to the convention. And you couldn’t actually go into the convention because that was… The security guard wouldn’t let us go in to the convention. But it was near the convention. I think a lot of people… I saw a lot of people with nametags kind of going by on their way to lunch. And I think they got the idea anyway, if you know what I mean. And you know, I was really happy to be a part of it just in general because I think it’s a big deal and I think it’s something that everyone can be proud of.
Jeff:
So “This Week in Links”… This part of the show usually takes 40 to 50 minutes of the show. This week, we had another 80 links for animals of various kinds. They were awesome. Appreciate those. Those would go along with my 600 I think I had of last week’s Animal of the Week which was the squirrel. This week is the polar bear. I posted a whole bunch of those including the old Coke commercials which are really awesome because they move around. They kind of seem like they’re people and it’s really cool when they hold the coke, you know, and kind of cradle it. Oh, wait. Yeah. There’s one… I’ve got to give you this link directly. It’s i33tinypic.com/140ztpk.jpeg. So everybody should go to that while we can talk about it because it’s this bird and it’s just wicked awesome. So you can bring it up on your site. And if you want to post up about it… I don’t have any way to leave comments on my website ‘cos it was a pain in the ass. So I guess, you know, you can just email me and we can talk about it that way. And if somebody else emails me, I’ll just, like, forward all your mails to them. And if you have links that you want to send, I’ll send those to the other people who emailed in. And we’ll all share the links and forward them along. I apologize to that guy that got on the email links from the 500 pictures of the squirrels last week. He got on there and then I put him on everybody else’s and then everybody kept emailing him and he kept trying to get off. I think he worked at a financial company. Hopefully, he doesn’t get in too much trouble.
Casey:
Okay. Some of you may have noticed that I had to take down the Capital Punishment protest wall that I had put up just last week. And apparently, some people thought that it was funny to just post “Boobs, boobs, boobs!” like, 30 times on there and then finally, I thought that someone was taking it seriously because there was a link that said, “You should see what’s happening in [inaudible 55:29]” And there was a link. I clicked on it, and it was someone getting shit on by an elephant, okay. I know that was you, Jeff. I know that you posted the shitting elephant because that is exactly the kind of link that you normally go to. I don’t go over to your animal links page and start posting links to actual world events. You should not be posting on a protest wall, okay. That is not how this works.
Jeff:
So yeah, this week is the polar bear. It’s one of my favorite animals. It’s not quite as cute as, like, you know, bunny rabbits and stuff but they’re fuzzy. And I think we can agree that they’re awesome. So send me some pictures. If you can find some where he’s dancing… ‘Cos I can’t find any… I found lots of dancing bears. It’s a popular thing but finding ones where they’re polar bears dancing, that’d be awesome.
Casey:
So I know that everyone probably wants to know how it went with me and the airlines last week. I know I said that I was gonna call again and talk to them about putting in place the new policies for sorting people by whether or not they plan to recline during the flight. And so, I thought I made my case very clearly that anyone who’s not going to recline should be up towards the front of the plane so that nobody reclines back into anyone else. And then, the people at the back of the plane, you know, they can all recline and they’re all reclining, right, so there should be a point in the middle of the plane that’s, like, for every given flight, we have sorted the people so that all of the non-recliners are in the front and all of the recliners are in the back. And it’s just… You know, it would be a considered a violation of FAA regulations to recline or not recline in one of the 2 sections that [ they’re sorted to ]. Unfortunately, they didn’t seem to be very receptive to this. So I’m gonna keep on pushing for it. We’ll see how it goes.
Jeff:
Alright, this week’s movie for Jeff’s Movie Club was “Cyborg 2”. It was Angelina’s first movie role where she plays “Kate Acid Burn Libby”. It’s not quite a “Tom Raider”. She’s in it for about 10 minutes or so. I thought the movie was awesome. You know, next week, we’re gonna do “Gone in 60 Seconds”. I’m gonna save everybody some time. Really, the segments… I would start it about 14:01. Go to 25/24 minutes in. And then again, there’s a scene where she has this tank top on. And I would say probably like 37 minutes in to about 45 minutes in. You can watch the whole thing but really, we’re just gonna focus on the Angelina Jolie parts next week, like we usually do. So you can avoid the rest if you want.
Casey:
Okay. Everyone has been writing in and saying, “Where are the animal links. So I have tried to go and get some animal links. The animal for this week is going to be the polar bear. And it is an endangered species. It’s been on the endangered species list for 3 years. If you haven’t heard about this, I urge you to go read about that. I have prepared 2 links for you. The first one is a video that shows what’s happening right now to the polar ice caps and how the ice floes that the polar bear need to survive are breaking up. It’s very sad. You can see the polar bears trying to survive on floating pieces of ice. And it’s just really tragic and moving. And the other video I have is the World Wildlife Federation’s fundraiser for polar bears, promotional video. I highly recommend that everyone watch this video and give to the World Wildlife Federation if you can. There’s only so much time left for the polar bears. And it soon be the case that you’ll only be able to see them in captivity. And so, I think really if there’s anything that you can do to help, I strongly urge you to do that.
Jeff:
Okay. So Drobo released a new software update this week. I’m really optimistic about this one. You know, I talked last week about how, when I moved it to my new computer, I had to copy everything off and then back on and it took 4 days. This time, when the new update came out, I had to do it again. But I’m thinking that it’s gonna be good because they’re moving to a model where you can share your data with more than one computer and more than day at a time kind of thing.
Casey:
What was the cook doing? They put the lobster in a pot of boiling water… You know, if I wanted to cook the fucking thing myself, you know, I’d cook it at home. I don’t need to go to a restaurant to have you take 10 seconds to steam this fucking thing and then I have to be like, “Goddamned Indiana Jones over here, like… You know, inching through each individual part breaking off the thing… It’s fucking ridiculous. It’s like more work than it’s worth.” So I mean, I never fuck… I mean, that’s why I never have lobster. I pretty much never have it, ever.
Jeff:
Okay. So our new segment this week in “My iPhone”… My iPhone is still awesome. This week, I made 12 calls and I think 8 of them were out-bound and 4 were people calling me. And yeah, you know, it’s awesome. Like, you just talk on the phone and you answer it and you can answer it by swiping your finger or you can, you know, just press the button. It’s great. I mean, everyone should have one of these.
Casey:
… Plus, all of the Muppets are not the same fucking age, right? [ Waldorf and Staedler ], older than that that eagle, thing, right, which is older than [ older than butts ] and honey dew, okay… They’re not all babies at the same fucking time. Who’s the plot continuity guy here, right? Who said that, like, a 40-year old fucking Muppet and a 20-year old Muppet would be babies in the same god damned nursery. You gotta be out of your fucking mind, right? There’s no possible way that could happen. It doesn’t make any sense.
Jeff:
Any gang bang that has more than 8 people is no good. Most of those guys are sitting around with nothing to do. They’re awkward, looking at each other. There’ s some sort of, like, line system that they have to maintain, you know. And why do we need more dick in my porn? I want less dick in my porn.
Casey:
But the goal of the rim is not to spin. It’s to stay stationary, okay. It’s like waited on the bottom so that when the car is driving and the wheels are spinning at full speed, it stays stationary. I’ve got news for you — That’s what it already looks like when you look at the wheel. It’s call temporal anti-aliasing, you dumb mother fucker.
Jeff:
When you’re at the gas station and there’s 8 million pumps… And then there’s a diesel on the end. Who uses diesel, right? Like, why even confuse us? Diesel pumps, no good, of course. You know, why have choices we can’t use. Put it over in the corner. Put it over by the air pump.
Casey:
Oh, where’s, like, the marshmallow cream? Oh, it’s not with the marshmallows. God forbid it’s with the fucking marshmallows. Why could marshmallow cream be with the marshmallows. Instead, marshmallow cream is with, like, completely unrelated barbeque shit. It’s like, “Okay, who uses marshmallow cream in a barbecue?”
Jeff:
Look, whatever it is, if the box is not a standard size, it’s no good. You get a DVD and it’s like, an inch bigger because it’s special edition. And then, all of your shit doesn’t match up anymore, doesn’t look good, you’ve got stuff on top. Now they’re sitting diagonally. It’s just no good, you know. Don’t do that. I don’t care. You want to make it wider, that’s pushing it but I’ll allow it.
Casey:
It’s like, “You mean a cantaloupe?” I’m like, “No, cantaloupes are only in Europe. They’re called musk melons here because that’s what it is. If you want to keep propagating this word, this totally erroneous, just so we all feel better about ourselves, fine. But guess what. It’s not a fucking cantaloupe. If I wanted a cantaloupe. I would have asked for a cantaloupe.
Jeff:
Some of these fucking machines have, like, city sounds. Why do I want to listen to a city sound? Machines making sound to help you go to sleep — No Good.
Casey:
Have you ever heard of volume acted pressure. It’s like, the deeper down you go, doesn’t matter. The bench is the worst at the surface, at the fucking surface.
Jeff:
Like, they’re sitting around in the dark with each other. And they’re looking at things through this telescope. And you know what, somebody else is going to take pictures of them. Why not look at those pictures? Why do you have to look at something yourself, right? It’s no different. Just go on the net.
Casey:
Well, it doesn’t look anything like milk, right? I don’t know why someone would take a coconut, open it up, and say, “That’s milk,” right? Look at an apple. Squeeze that shit out, right, into a cup, and go, “Oh, that’s definitely not milk. That’s juice,” right?
Jeff:
If you’re juggling with anything but balls… If you’re juggling anywhere publicly like in the fucking part, no good, okay. Put down the knives. Put down the chainsaws. Juggle balls in your own house. That’s it. That’s the only place you’re allowed to juggle. Everywhere else is no good.
Casey:
Jeff, all I can say about that is that you are really fucking lucky that we got back here…
Jeff:
I know, my friend. ‘Cos I…
Casey:
Your podcast was fucking terrible.
Jeff:
Alright, everybody. Why don’t you go ahead and give us an email at the real podcast which is Podcast@JeffAndCaseyShow.com, right?
Casey:
That’s right. But I guarantee you that if you send an email to us…
Jeff:
We’ll enjoy it.
Casey:
It’ll just be… You will enjoy it thoroughly.
Jeff:
And we will, too. Thanks, everybody.
Casey:
Take it easy.
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casey muratori
the jeff and casey show - season 1 - episode 26
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