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The Technician
No Imperfections Noted
The Jeff and Casey Show
Jeff and Casey Time
Casey Muratori
Seattle, WA
A Tale of Two Weiners
"Whatever he does in the bathroom, he just thinks someone else is going to clean it up."
Original air date: July 2nd, 2008
Topics. Jeff’s pad. Bill Gates email. Microsoft is done. Buying MP3s. Calling convention genders.
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Transcript
Jeff:
Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Jeff & Casey Show.
Casey:
Why was there a double click on the MegaTimer? What just happened?
Jeff:
I wasn’t quite prepared. But now I am.
Casey:
Oh, okay. Alright Fair enough.
Jeff:
It is June 28, right?
Casey:
Wow. It’s almost July 4th.
Jeff:
Yep, it’s getting closer. June 28, it’s about 7:30. I’m Jeff Roberts. With me is Casey Muratori.
Casey:
That might do. Have you ever said that with you here is Casey Muratori before?
Jeff:
No, we’ve never said our names.
Casey:
I don’t think so.
Jeff:
We said the Jeff & Cas--… Now we’re gonna show up on…
Casey:
’Cos the only people who listen to this are people…
Jeff:
Know who we are…
Casey:
Yeah, know who we are. So I don’t know that that’s actually necessary. It was occurring to me when you said that, I was like, “I don’t think I’ve ever been introduced by my full name before on this podcast.”
Jeff:
Yes. So say who you are.
Casey:
Hi, there. I’m Casey Muratori. I’m really pleased to be doing the podcast this after. We’ve got a great show for you tonight. We don’t have a musical guest.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
But we may talk about musicals at some point.
Jeff:
Yes, that will probably…
Casey:
Not necessarily in this show but soon.
Jeff:
Yes, that will come up.
Casey:
We’ve talked about it in the past.
Jeff:
We have.
Casey:
So if I may say so myself, I don’t think I have any plans for July 4th.
Jeff:
Yeah, I don’t think…
Casey:
It totally snuck up on me. I don’t know. I guess I’m not social enough, really.
Jeff:
It’s next week, right?
Casey:
Like, I don’t have plans for this. It must be, right? Because you said it’s…
Jeff:
Isn’t it a social holiday? I think we’re all supposed to be patriotic…
Casey:
I guess… A lot of times, people go and watch the fireworks…
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
I imagine maybe I’ll walk downtown to do that. I’m not sure.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
That’s a good question.
Jeff:
It’s on a Friday, I think. Right? Friday?
Casey:
Yes?
Jeff:
Yeah, something like that?
Casey:
I have no idea. I have no idea.
Jeff:
All I know is it is hot in podcast studios.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It is hot today.
Casey:
It is very hot.
Jeff:
It’s not the way it should go.
Casey:
It is not the way it should go. You were saying, before we started this podcast, that you had an odd morning, as well…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
But you wouldn’t tell me what happened.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
You were like, “I’m gonna talk about it on the podcast.” But I don’t know what it was.
Jeff:
I had an interesting morning. So, yeah… So, I woke up and I…
Casey:
It’s a good start to the morning.
Jeff:
Yeah. I woke up and it was hot. It had already been hot. And my condo doesn’t have air conditioning…
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
Because no places here have air conditioning, pretty much. You have to have that installed.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And…
Casey:
The building does not have…
Jeff:
Right. Very rare, it’s…
Casey:
Centralized air conditioning.
Jeff:
Very rare in Seattle.
Casey:
I think it’ll start getting more popular know because it’s been getting hotter here.
Jeff:
I don’t know what’s going on.
Casey:
You know, year over year… The global warming is certainly happening.
Jeff:
It’s heating me up, that’s all I’m saying.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So I woke up. I was really hot. And so, I opened all the doors to the condo on the patio just to let the air come in.
Casey:
Oh, so you’re talking about doors like to a deck?
Jeff:
Yeah, a little deck thing.
Casey:
Like a sliding glass door or something?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Just to, like, let the hot air ‘cos it’s shooting straight down.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And I don’t even have blinds on some of my windows ‘cos…
Casey:
So you’re just streaming sunlight in?
Jeff:
Right. So in fact, at 9 in the morning, I get this shaft volume…
Casey:
Right. Yes.
Jeff:
Coming in from the window…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s like a very shadow volumey shape…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
That moves across, and like, in my sleep, I’ll roll over to one side of the bed…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Until it’s baking me and I roll back.
Casey:
So, you’re like locating the ark of a covenant…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Every morning in the map room.
Jeff:
It’s the worst.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And so, I have a big painting in the window that I stuck up there to block it…
Casey:
Nice.
Jeff:
And you know that…
Casey:
So your place is basically like the _ber bachelor pad. Like, if I walked in there, there’d probably be clothes all over the place, right…
Jeff:
It’s worse than you can imagine because there’s no…
Casey:
Your secret stack of Angelina Jolie movies that disappointed you…
Jeff:
Yes, disappointed…
Casey:
Over in a corner… A painting wedged in a window to try and block out the light…
Jeff:
No, it’s way worse than you’d imagine…
Casey:
No furniture.
Jeff:
It’s way worse than you’d imagine…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Because there’s no kitchen because we…
Casey:
Why is there no kitchen?
Jeff:
Well, we were remodeling it all and I can’t get the cabinet makers to make the right thing…
Casey:
What? Who’s “we”?
Jeff:
Me. Like, me and the contractor. Like…
Casey:
So you hired somebody to redo the kitchen but they haven’t done it?
Jeff:
Yeah. You know Dave.
Casey:
Oh, God…
Jeff:
Dave gets things done…
Casey:
So this is gonna be like you won’t be cooking something until you’re moving out of the place, basically.
Jeff:
Well, I’ve had no kitchen and no living room and no carpet in most of the condo for at least 18 months.
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
Yeah. So, it’s like, there’s a mattress…
Casey:
That is so awesome.
Jeff:
And like… No, it’s insane.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
So anyway…
Casey:
Yes, that’s right. Jeff Roberts, founder and president of one of the most successful game companies in the world…
Jeff:
No, I just…
Casey:
Is currently living in a condominium with no floor and no kitchen and it’s been that way for a year.
Jeff:
I just don’t care about… I just don’t notice…
Casey:
Perfect.
Jeff:
I’m just like… I spend all my time at the office…
Casey:
I love this. It’s great.
Jeff:
So it doesn’t matter to me. I could sleep on my couch aside from the…
Casey:
Right you just don’t… You don’t care. I see.
Jeff:
I just do not care.
Casey:
So if they could fix the zoning laws so that you could just live here…
Jeff:
I’d be fine.
Casey:
You’d just be fine?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Okay. But some inspector, at some point, would come here and kick you out because it’s only commercial or something?
Jeff:
Well, and there’s no shower here. You need, like…
Casey:
Can’t you put that in? Can’t you have that put in?
Jeff:
No, I can’t do my own action in that. In fact…
Casey:
So if you bought a place, if you bought an office building or something…
Jeff:
Then I probably wouldn’t even… Then the condo would never get finished ‘cos I’d never go there again.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I’d never even worry about it.
Casey:
Excellent.
Jeff:
I’m thinking of getting a hotel room down at the new hotel…
Casey:
Okay. Oh, right, the one that’s, like, a block from here?
Jeff:
Right, right, right.
Casey:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeff:
And so, I asked them if I just rented by the month, how much would it be…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And it’s not too crazy.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
It’s, like, 6K a month.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And I’m like, “That wouldn’t be too bad because then, they’d make you food all the time.”
Casey:
Yeah, you could have room service…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Well, you know, actually, in Downtown Seattle… I told you this. There’s now… Like, there’s been kind of a fairly large sort of push for these hotel-style condos, right…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So there’s buildings downtown now which have, like, you know… They’re not hotels. They’re condominiums…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But you get laundry service and room service and all of those things because, you know, maybe they’ve got some rooms that are rented by the night or by the month in the thing. But then, they provide all the services here…
Jeff:
Well, that’s…
Casey:
And I was like, “That sounds like something Jeff would like.”
Jeff:
Yeah. Well, most of… The thing they’re doing now a fair amount is they’re putting a hotel on the bottom floors…
Casey:
And then selling the top…
Jeff:
And then condos above…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And you can still get room service and stuff…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I almost did the one in Bellevue…
Casey:
Were they gonna do that there, too?
Jeff:
But I’m glad I didn’t. Yeah, they do that there…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
At Lincoln Square … And it has a movie theater at bottom. It would’ve been almost pretty good.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The only thing is I felt like they were kind of at the peak. Condos were at the peak right then and I was totally right…
Casey:
You didn’t want to lose the cash so it’s just, like, “Awesome. I’ll buy this…”
Jeff:
Totally right…
Casey:
“And I can just wait 2 years and buy it for half price.”
Jeff:
Right. ‘Cos the one I was going to buy, the penthouse of that building, from where I bought it to where they would’ve been livable, it went up almost 50% because of building cost. And then after that…
Casey:
And the market…
Jeff:
You know, with real estate the way it is…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s like, 50% of what the original price… So people who own those are just…
Casey:
Hating life… Alright.
Jeff:
So yeah…
Casey:
Now you can go buy it. Now you can go buy it for half price, right…
Jeff:
And then just walk away from this one?
Casey:
And be like, “Woohoo…”
Jeff:
I have someone…
Casey:
Well, this one wasn’t a very expensive apartment at that time, right?
Jeff:
No, no, no. This one was chosen because it was next door to RAD.
Casey:
Dirt cheap? Okay.
Jeff:
Well, not even dirt cheap. It was next door.
Casey:
Right. Gotcha.
Jeff:
I didn’t even have to do anything. I can walk right over there although I don’t. Anyway…
Casey:
No. You drive your car from…
Jeff:
2 blocks…
Casey:
2 blocks. Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Amazing.
Jeff:
Yep. I do.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And it’s good because… Like, if you walk, there’s people that want to talk to you. That’s what I find.
Casey:
Right. That’s what your story’s about, right? I assume…
Jeff:
Well… Okay. So, yeah… So I open the doors to get some air.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Okay. So I do that. I then go in and I’m gonna take a shower.
Casey:
Alright. You’re airing the place out.
Jeff:
Yeah. I got the wind blowing…
Casey:
Getting the underwear smell out of there a little bit.
Jeff:
No, it’s just like… I think it was 85 degrees.
Casey:
Boiling hot.
Jeff:
Yeah. And this is at 8:30. It was early in the morning.
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
So anyway, I get that. The wind’s blowing through and that’s all good. So I go and I turn on the shower. I’m about to get in the shower…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And then I hear Charlie, like, scratching at the door. The little…
Casey:
Charles Winthrop Weiner.
Jeff:
Yeah, the little weiner dog…
Casey:
The mini daschund.
Jeff:
Right. And I’m like, “Ah, I better go check him.” And sure enough, he’s managed to climb through a hole in the screen out to the thing because I have a screen there and he’s…
Casey:
Weiner!
Jeff:
And he’s out there and I’m like, “Ah…”
Casey:
Ah…
Jeff:
So I go grab him.
Casey:
He’s very adventurous, you know?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I grab him. I forgot, I don’t know how…
Casey:
You’re not wearing any clothes?
Jeff:
I’m not wearing any clothes.
Casey:
At all?
Jeff:
Full monty.
Casey:
Jeff Roberts!
Jeff:
Now, wait, I…
Casey:
So you were holding a weiner and a weiner out on the patio.
Jeff:
Well, I’m not quite out on the patio. I’m just in the doorway reaching to get him.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And then, I…
Casey:
Which one was the mini weiner? That’s the real question at this point. Okay. No, continue.
Jeff:
But here’s the thing. I’m on the…
Casey:
Dottie…
Jeff:
We’ve got some dog issues.
Casey:
Dot is eating the trash.
Jeff:
What have we got going on here?
Casey:
I don’t know.
Jeff:
Dottie… Come on.
Casey:
So Dot has gotten into the trash again. Kind of a late motif with her. Well, it’s not a late--… A late motif is something that’s recent. It’s kind of persistent behavior that’s been there forever with Dottie…
Jeff:
Repeating symbolism…
Casey:
Yeah, eating out of the trash. Continue.
Jeff:
Anyway… I would’ve been fine. So, I’m on the top floor.
Casey:
You’re fucking naked, holding a weiner dog on the patio of a 4-storey apartment.
Jeff:
Right. Now, I’m on the top floor. I would’ve been fine.
Casey:
Okay. It’s the 4th floor? 5th floor?
Jeff:
Yes. 4th floor.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Except I’m looking… My patio looks straight across the way to another 4th floor patio and…
Casey:
Oh… No!
Jeff:
They’re on their patio. Of course they are. And I’m like, “Ah!” And I, like, do this kind of dive with me and the dog and so… Yeah… And…
Casey:
What you’re supposed to do is hold the dog down by your crotch, right? Haven’t you seen the movies, like the Austin Powers, right?
Jeff:
Austin Powers, yeah.
Casey:
And it’s a fucking weiner dog. It’s a perfect shape for this.
Jeff:
Oh…
Casey:
Right? The dog is, like, perfect to sort of…
Jeff:
It was the worst.
Casey:
You can pretend it’s as long as you want because the weiner is, like, 2 feet, you know. You can kind of hold it to the side and be like, “Oh, I’m hiding my manliness with this weiner dog.” Right?
Jeff:
I felt so fucking stupid. So I’m like, “Oh, my God.” And then I’m, like, immediately, like… You get super embarrassed. I’m all sweaty and then I’m like, “Oh, fuck.” Anyway, I’m like, “Screw you, Charlie,” set him down, like, “I don’t care if you go out there and fall off at that point. I don’t know what… Like, it didn’t even occur to me. I’m like, “I better go get the dog.” Then I’m like, “Ah…”
Casey:
It’s like those dreams…
Jeff:
Worst…
Casey:
You know…
Jeff:
Worst…
Casey:
When you’re not wearing any clothes. But it’s not a dream. You actually somehow literally… ‘Cos in the dream, you’re always like, “How did I get all the way to the office or all the way to school, or something, without putting any clothes on?” But here, it’s like, I guess now we know. Somehow, you totally forgot…
Jeff:
They still happened…
Casey:
Until the moment that you weren’t wearing any clothes.
Jeff:
These things happen. Anyway, so that started the day.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So I’m like, “Fuck.”
Casey:
A good start to the day.
Jeff:
Right. And so then, I get ready. Put the dogs in the car and I’m gonna run to the office to feed them.
Casey:
Yeah. Now, have you put on clothes at this point?
Jeff:
Yes, I am clothed at this point.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So I run down and I decide to stop at the smoothie place on the way and grab a smoothie…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Go in… And I carry Charlie with me because he barks. And Dot’s sitting in the car.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s a hot day…
Casey:
So you’re in a 7/11, holding a fucking weiner dog?
Jeff:
No, this is at the smoothie place.
Casey:
Oh, sorry. Emerald City Smoothie?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay. I thought Slurpee in my head there for a second. Sorry.
Jeff:
So anyway, I go in and I… It’s a fast place. It takes maybe a minute.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
My car’s in the shade. It’s a hot day. I have all of the windows rolled down…
Casey:
Right. And it’s the beefcake place, right. It’s where all the gym people go. So there’s always, like, someone in, like, a tank top or shorts or something, like…
Jeff:
Yeah, they’re all… Yeah…
Casey:
“Just doing some squats…”
Jeff:
Yeah, basically. “Can I have…”
Casey:
“Just finished doing some squats…”
Jeff:
“Protein with extra protein?”
Casey:
Yeah. “I’d like a protein shake, hold the fruit.”
Jeff:
Yeah. “Can I just… I like the smell.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So, yeah… So, I run in there. I order. I come back out. Must’ve been out there a minute. And I come out there and Dot’s still in the car.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
And I have all the windows down.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
I’m parked in the shade.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
But there’s this hippie dude…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Total, full-on hippie dude.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And I walk back to my car. I’m putting Charlie back in the car. And he’s like, “Dude, you should totally not leave your dog in the car.” I’m like, “Well, first off, I was only in there a second. And second off, it’s in the shade.” And then I was just mad. I’m like, “You know what…”
Casey:
Why am I explaining myself to a hippie?
Jeff:
Yeah. And…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“You know, fuck you, Mr. Patchouli because, you know, I’m just not feeling… Like, if you even know the insanity life that Dot leads, I guarantee he eats better than you.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“So just fuck you.” So I was, like, all pissy and he was like, “Dude, dude, dude, dude…” I just put up my hand. I gave him the hand…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And stared at him… And he just walked off kind of thing. And so I was like, I’ve had, like… Before 9 o’clock…
Casey:
You’ve already had your fill of it.
Jeff:
I’ve had 2 bad situations with humans already. So I’m like, “This is why I drive. I don’t need this shit with all…”
Casey:
What is Charles Winthrop Weiner doing right now?
Jeff:
We have…
Casey:
He’s trying to get up to those bones on the bookshelf, isn’t he?
Jeff:
There. I don’t know how he got up there.
Casey:
I watched him do it.
Jeff:
How’d he do it?
Casey:
He went in through the crack on the left side.
Jeff:
Doing that?
Casey:
Maybe. Good luck. This is a dog that got out on your deck and precipitated your exposure to the neighbors. I think he can figure out how to get on the couch, for sure, right?
Jeff:
It was all planned, Charlie’s plan. Did your phone just ring?
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Anyway…
Jeff:
’Cos I needed the sound. If we’re gonna have that…
Casey:
Oh the…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So that’s just morning. By 9 o’clock…
Casey:
It was already pretty crazy…
Jeff:
I came in, I was already pissed off at the world. This fucking hippie…
Casey:
I think that you just…
Jeff:
And the nudist…
Casey:
Ah, blablabla… You did not do what you needed to do in this. You normally know better than that, right? You normally know… You are normally one of the few people… I can’t usually do this but you, I think, can (at least more often) which is to look at a conversation more in terms of it reaching the resolution that you want and not about, like, whose pride comes away better or whatever, you know what I mean? When a hippie tells you something like that, it seems like you’d just be like, “Sorry, dude. I’m tripping so hard right now,” and it’s just over, right? He’s probably your best friend at that point. And he’ll forget about whatever he was saying about the dog. He’d just be like, “Oh, yeah, man. What are you on?” And you’re like, “Oh, it was some fucking awesome mushrooms,” you know…
Jeff:
Well, if it was later in a day, I probably could’ve said something like, “No, dude. He’s wearing a hemp coat. You know how those breed.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And he’s like, “Yeah, man. Hemp.”
Casey:
Exactly.
Jeff:
“We can make everything out of hemp.”
Casey:
Yeah. That’s why it’s uncharacteristic for you to have been ruffled in that situation. That’s a little odd, actually.
Jeff:
If you start out like being aggressive to me, my normal response is…
Casey:
Is aggressive?
Jeff:
Back…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And it’s no good. ‘Cos I get…
Casey:
So it’s only in a business context that you’re able to think it through properly, is that what you’re saying?
Jeff:
Yeah. Well, you usually have time to think about other things…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
Whereas with direct human interaction…
Casey:
Too reactionary for you…
Jeff:
I usually go the way that makes the situation worse…
Casey:
Most people go… Okay.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Well, that’s what most people do. That’s what I do, certainly, yeah.
Jeff:
Yes. At the movie theater, I get in big fights.
Casey:
That is true. I have seen you. I have seen you physically shove, with your hands… Like, it was not a verbal thing. You pushed somebody, walking out of… Oh, my goodness… Was it “Star Wars”? Was it when they were replaying the “Star Wars” films? When they were first released?
Jeff:
I can’t remember. There was just one guy who was real obnoxious…
Casey:
I think it was.
Jeff:
And I shoved him back in his seat.
Casey:
You shoved him.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
No, you shoved him when we were walking out. I mean, you may have also done that…
Jeff:
Oh, yeah. That was a good one.
Casey:
You pushed… We were walking out and you pushed the dude.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And I was like… And he had no response for that.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
He was totally shocked that you pushed him. I was totally shocked that you pushed him.
Jeff:
Yeah. That one was a particularly good one.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah. We seem to have those… We had the awesome one with John Miles where this dude was talking on his phone and John’s like… John thinks up these complicated cuts…
Casey:
Right, that the person probably won’t get…
Jeff:
That they don’t get usually…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
But John said something like, you know, “Are you telling somebody all about the movie?” And the dude was like, “I got me some business.” That’s what he said.
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
He was totally…
Casey:
He did not say, “I got me some business.”
Jeff:
Right. He’s totally this White bird who’s talking all slangy and he’s like…
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
“Yeah, I got business.” And then he was so… Everyone kind of snickered and he just sunk down in his seat just, like, totally beat. It was one of the best ones. And then the movie sucked anyway so it wasn’t worth defending but… Yeah.
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
Anyway, sorry about that… So, yeah, my morning was crazy. Crazy action. Yeah.
Casey:
Well, so our first order of business on the podcast… And by first, I mean 17 minutes into the podcast.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Is that people have been asking… Literally, we have been emailed and there has been a post on the forum about the Bill Gates email…
Jeff:
Oh, the Bill Gates email…
Casey:
Everyone’s like, “You have to talk about this on the podcast.”
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
Which is odd because every site in the world has covered… Why we would need to talk about this…
Jeff:
I think…
Casey:
I feel more like our podcast is valuable simply because we can talk about things that no one cares about. So you get a little bit of extra coverage…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Of the spectrum…
Jeff:
Of special things… Yeah.
Casey:
Of special things. It’s like a little treat, a little sort of unique [inaudible 17:36], if you will, for your weekend, right?
Jeff:
I think the thing is since we rant…
Casey:
We do…
Jeff:
And since you can rant…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Very well… They were like…
Casey:
Well, thank you. That’s a very good compliment.
Jeff:
It felt… It sounded like Bill got into a ranty place and everyone…
Casey:
He… Yes.
Jeff:
I think that’s what…
Casey:
Which is really just the fact… I mean, you know, I’ve only met Bill Gates once, right, and it was at a function, right. It was when I was an intern at Microsoft…
Jeff:
Oh…
Casey:
They had a thing in those days… I don’t know if they still do it because it’s such a much bigger organization now…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And he’s not really part of it anymore. You know, he’s kind of extricated himself, right? But back then, he was still very much…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
He was still, you know, acting president and whatever and he was still very much involved in making decisions, right, ‘cos maybe… I don’t want to say, like, 5 or 6 years ago was when he started officially, you know, transitioning that…
Jeff:
Fading back up…
Casey:
So this was before, this was 1994 or something, right…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And so, in those days, the interns, they all went to his house for dinner, right?
Jeff:
Oh, that’s right.
Casey:
’Cos there weren’t that many, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
There was, you know… Maybe there was 100 or 200 interns. So they would have, over the course of the summer, a few dinners where 50 interns or something would go and he would host it, you know, and he would talk to you, you know, kind of… You go gather around. It’s like Campfire Bill, you know, and interns could ask him questions and he would ans--… You know, it was kind of nice, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It was a nice thing to do.
Jeff:
That’s about the time you kicked [ Felipe Khan’s ] ass.
Casey:
Kind of.
Jeff:
Do you remember when [ Portland ] was good…
Casey:
Yeah, exactly. Right, right…
Jeff:
And now they suck?
Casey:
Right. It was…
Jeff:
That’s awesome.
Casey:
That kind of was what it was like, right. Anyway, so I don’t really know. I have no firsthand experience of him because obviously, he’s not probably gonna start ranting, you know. I guess if he was like me…
Jeff:
He might…
Casey:
Yeah, he probably would’ve started ranting in the middle of an intern dinner about something, right? But he’s obviously not.
Jeff:
Because his NT-based lighting system isn’t working…
Casey:
Yeah, whatever. I don’t even know.
Jeff:
He’s like, “Cocksuckers in [ Kernel ] group…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“Can’t get the…”
Casey:
“God fucking damn it. I’ll tell you what. The first one of you interns who can fucking fix this program, you’re hired. You’re hired. And you can have his job because you know what, you’re fired. You’re out of here. Go.”
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
Because that was the thing is at this dinner, my table, there was an important person seated with you, right.
Jeff:
Oh, okay.
Casey:
So I think ours was… I can’t remember the guy’s name. I think it was like Mike Maples or something like this…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It was the head of the Office thing…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Back when Office was headed competently, which I guess it still sort of is, it’s still kind of one of the better divisions there…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
If you were [ ranking ].
Jeff:
Well, they’re the ones that get…
Casey:
They make some money…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They produce a product that has… Actually, you can tell there’s some changes from the previous versions and so on…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
That aren’t all bad.
Jeff:
Well, it’s just like, they also are the money pools, so like… They…
Casey:
They make a lot of money.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
They make a lot of money, yeah. So you know, there’s very high ranking people. So he easily could have, right, pointed to somebody and just been like, “You know what, you’re sitting with the interns and that’s where you belong,” right? “You fucking piece of shit.” Anyway, so that was the one time I’d ever seen him and he wasn’t ranty. But all of the people that I know, like Mike Abrash, right, who have actually had personal business interactions with him in the past in some capacity…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
I had a ranty experience with him, too.
Casey:
Okay. So there you go. So you…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Have always said to me that he is very ranty in general. So I think it’s more just like publicly speaking, it doesn’t seem to leak very much.
Jeff:
Right. Whereas I wasn’t surprised at all that…
Casey:
Right. It’s like his reputation, in my eyes, from what everyone always told me, was that’s who he always was.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So I’m just like, yeah, this email is actually kind of tame by comparison to what I between he probably said in closed doors which involved probably calling the person a dim-witted asshole or something, right? So…
Jeff:
Right. Well, we were doing Microsoft Golf…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And we went up and showed it to him.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And when he tried it… You know, it used that stupid access interface…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
The 3-click thing where you’re like…
Casey:
The 3 clicks…
Jeff:
Click.
Casey:
Click.
Jeff:
Click at the top. Click at the bottom, right?
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
He couldn’t get it.
Casey:
He couldn’t get it.
Jeff:
And he’s a golfer.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So he was pissed.
Casey:
He was pissed.
Jeff:
He was like, “This is so stupid.” And he kept, like, hitting it into the water…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And it was… He was ranting.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
He was not a happy… He was not a happy…
Casey:
So what you’re saying is he’s playing Wii Golf/Wii Sports right now or whatever…
Jeff:
And they were all shitting their pants. Yeah, he was… All the Microsoft dudes were shitting their pants. And Access is like, “This is the same game we shipped for 20 years…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“It’s fine. Everybody loves it. In fact, we can’t change it even if we wanted to.”
Casey:
Right. If we changed it, we’d have to have a setting to keep… You’d have to be able to pick this [inaudible 22:07]
Jeff:
So they didn’t give a shit but, yeah, the Microsoft dudes were losing it.
Casey:
Were up… Not… Yeah. Well…
Jeff:
I think Mike Abrash’s story was they were doing Football. They were showing Football to him for the first time.
Casey:
Oh, yeah.
Jeff:
And he sat there watching it for about 5 minutes…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And then he just goes, “Where’s the cheerleaders?” He’s pissed that there are no cheerleaders. And then they all, like, kind of look at each other scary and like…
Casey:
Well, where the fuck are the cheerleaders?
Jeff:
They were in when they shipped.
Casey:
Oh, okay.
Jeff:
They were like, “No, these are going in.” And he was right. I mean, that’s totally true.
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
You can’t have the stadium, everything else, and then no cheerleaders on the sidelines.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
They had to be there.
Casey:
I actually have a story that I can’t tell actually about that that involves Bill Gates…
Jeff:
Oh, man. I almost want to pause…
Casey:
Bill Gates and some grab-age, some grope-age, if you will. I can’t tell it though because I doubt… I didn’t think it would come up and I don’t have permission…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
From the gropee, the person whose ass was felt…
Jeff:
Oh, damn it.
Casey:
To tell the story…
Jeff:
Alright. Well, that’s next week…
Casey:
They’ll know who it is. She’ll know who it is and she’s listening to this.
Jeff:
Awesome. I love it.
Casey:
But I can’t… I can’t certainly say any more than that but…
Jeff:
I think the…
Casey:
Suffice to say, he does seem like he’s got an eye for the ladies, which is always good, I guess. Yeah.
Jeff:
Well…
Casey:
He probably knows how to pick up a woman in his Ferrari…
Jeff:
Hey, you know that sexy…
Casey:
Unlike you…
Jeff:
That sexy [ Teen Beat ] cover he had…
Casey:
No, I did not.
Jeff:
You’ve seen the picture of him sitting on his desk, [inaudible 23:27] for the camera…
Casey:
Yeah…
Jeff:
And you’re just like, well…
Casey:
You’re like, “It’s a really good thing you have lots and lots of money.”
Jeff:
Yeah. Exactly.
Casey:
Because it’s gonna be necessary…
Jeff:
Like, all I’m thinking is…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I mean, the sensation is exactly like when you read about the Mini Me sex tape. It’s like…
Casey:
Oh, God.
Jeff:
Yeah. It’s the exact same thing.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s like, “There goes the erection for the next 12 years.” It’s like…
Casey:
Well, that’s the thing. The Mini Me sex tape is one of those things where I’m like, “If I have to…” Sometimes, right, you might sit around, thinking about the relationships in your life, right. And you think about, “What does each person I know bring to my life? What is different about my life because I know this person?”
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
And like, the Mini Me sex tape is the perfect example. I would never know that Mini Me had a sex tape if it wasn’t for you, right? There are so many things, right…
Jeff:
You’re saying…
Casey:
None of them important but there are so many things I would never know if I didn’t know you, right?
Jeff:
And I did forward them to you.
Casey:
Some of them are fictional. Some of them don’t exist except in your head, right?
Jeff:
No, they’re all true.
Casey:
But some of them are real and the Mini Me sex tape is one of them, right?
Jeff:
You love my links.
Casey:
Anyway… So about this Bill Gates email…
Jeff:
Well, wait… Yeah, let’s go back to the email.
Casey:
So I’m just talking about this Bill Gates email.
Jeff:
I just… We got… I think 2 people emailed us. A couple people on the forum…
Casey:
Someone posted it on the forums already…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And as usual, Sean had something very good to say as he always does…
Casey:
He had the trenchant remark. He definitely did.
Jeff:
But he had the thing whereas, like, this exactly clarifies…
Casey:
Yes. He summed it up.
Jeff:
Everything about Microsoft. And he said…
Casey:
Well, he said that if Bill Gates can’t get them to fix something in 5 years…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Then we’re just… Who can, right?
Jeff:
But more importantly, he said it even better.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
He said, “If somebody that can say that…” And he quoted the part where he talked about the ridiculous path name…
Casey:
Right. Yeah, yeah…
Jeff:
Is crap…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, if he can know that’s crap and he still can’t get them to fix it…
Casey:
Yeah. ‘Cos he’s the most powerful person at Microsoft…
Jeff:
And the leader and, like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
At Microsoft, all penises shrink before him.
Casey:
That’s right.
Jeff:
It doesn’t matter if you’re a girl. You still have shrinkage in his presence.
Casey:
That’s right.
Jeff:
And if he can say, “This is crap…”
Casey:
And it doesn’t matter…
Jeff:
And it doesn’t get fixed…
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
Microsoft is done.
Casey:
That’s a good point.
Jeff:
And that’s…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And Sean was… As soon as I read that, you know, it’s like, “Yeah, that’s it. That’s it.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And he had some other good points about the locality of the… Having good people in positions where they can make the local decisions…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Because there’s lots of places in Vista where you notice that maybe the overall goal of increased security was a good one. But the people making the localized decision of how to go about making something more secure…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Was a complete moron. And it’s those local decisions that are now killing Microsoft, not the high level ones, not the things where they say, “This is what we’re doing.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s the localized guy that’s making…
Casey:
Well…
Jeff:
Hundreds of stupid decisions…
Casey:
Yeah, I would sort of phrase that slightly differently. It is kind of playing armchair quarterback, to some degree. I mean, you know, my experience, in general, if I had to summarize my experience, is that if the number of programmers or developers on something is, like, greater than 3, it’s hopeless. Like, that’s my… I’m not saying that’s true.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I’m saying that’s my experience. So my thing… I would not really ever sit around and, in earnest, say to someone, “Oh, I’ve got answers for you on how to develop software, a large project, with so many people.” But one thing I would say that’s slightly different, perhaps, from what you’re saying is that, “I do think that, in general, there is a high level problem, though. And the high level problem is just the approach, not necessarily the people but literally the approach to how you develop software at this level because, to some degree, like, things like comm and all the [inaudible 27:13] implied and all that stuff, those actually weren’t low level decisions. Those were high level decisions. I remember because I know the people who made those high level decisions. And they were bad ones.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And low level developers were saying we shouldn’t do this.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And they were ignored. You know what I mean?
Jeff:
I kind of…
Casey:
So to some degree, I think a lot of that stuff kind of feeds back. It’s like they don’t… You know…
Jeff:
But that feels like…
Casey:
It’s process problems.
Jeff:
Yeah. I think that those were big… I shouldn’t say that there are no big mistakes.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But when you use Vista, it’s not the big stuff that bothers you (in particular, Vista). It’s the little localized decisions that are almost always wrong or inconsistent with another localized decision. If I had to pick something that, like…
Casey:
But is that… I guess what I’m trying to say is, is that because of the localized decision or are those all symptoms of a larger problem? Right? Because in one case… Like, let’s say that all… That your overall conception of how architecture should go is correct, then it is still possible to have the problems that you’re talking about by each person making stupid decisions, right? If your approach to software development and your goals and so on at high level are correct, it still is possible to have the problems that you’re talking about…
Jeff:
Yeah, yeah…
Casey:
Certainly by having the local be the things that are wrong, [ which is what you’re saying ]. I guess what I’m saying is I feel like actually things are rotten at the core there and cleaning up the fact that people are making small bad decisions might make it better but it’s not gonna fix the problem.
Jeff:
I think… I don’t necessarily agree with that. I think what you get is… If you get better localized decisions, you still get a non-optimal product, like, you get something more like XP than you get Vista. It’s like, I don’t think XP is perfect…
Casey:
That’s probably true.
Jeff:
In fact, we talked about the fact that when we first got XP, we hated it.
Casey:
It was ass.
Jeff:
But now we’re used to it…
Casey:
By comparison, it always is better, yeah…
Jeff:
Right. So I think…
Casey:
I do have something to say about that, too, but I guess I’ll have to pause it for a second.
Jeff:
Yeah. So anyway, that’s… So I mean, as far as having a lot to say about the email, I’m just like, yeah, he’s writing all regards and it’s a hundred times worse than it was…
Casey:
Yes, he is.
Jeff:
5 years ago when he wrote that…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And yeah, he can’t do anything about it. So there’s almost no worth ranting about it ‘cos what can you say?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
They’re fucked and they’re done.
Casey:
Well, there is something rant-wise that I would say about that email, right, which is that basically… I mean, if you read that email, which is taken out of context, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
There might have been a thread, you know, who knows what got replied and what he said about it and so on. And it’s just one email, right.
Jeff:
So eventually, Bill compares…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Movie Maker to, like, a Nazi and [inaudible 29:46]
Casey:
Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
It’s a standard thing…
Casey:
And someone replied, like, “Me, too. I couldn’t install it, either.” “Me neither.” “Me neither.”
Jeff:
First. First.
Casey:
Yeah. It’s like, “You guys are idiots. I installed it fine.” So the thing is, right, the… This is always a thing that brings me pleasure or at least the way that the… The mental exercise that I enjoy most is looking at the underlying assumptions of something because usually, it’s either… If you’re looking at it in some profound or historical context, it’s usually very enlightening to look at, like, all of the things that aren’t being said, right…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And that feels good, mentally. And then, in situations like this, it’s just entertaining…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
To think about all the things that are implicit in this email that never got said, right… So for example, in this email, what struck me after reading it is I was like, “Nobody bothered to point out the fact that after… If this had succeeded, if he’d gotten Movie Maker on his machine, what would’ve ended up happening is he would’ve had the world’s worst movie making software on his machine.”
Jeff:
Well…
Casey:
The end goal of this was already bad.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Like, he should’ve stopped just before he started. So they were doing him a favor.
Jeff:
Well, that’s what… Well, right. That’s why they did…
Casey:
It’s a favor. Making Movie Maker easier to install is worse for the world…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Because everyone else who does this…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Goes, “This is too tricky. I’m gonna go buy Premier.” And it’s better. Right?
Jeff:
Well, no…
Casey:
Or Pinnacle or something…
Jeff:
Right. I think the thing there is since movie making… I mean, and especially if you do this like I would with the Drobos and all that stuff I’d done…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You enter an alternate world of pain…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Where the best case is you aren’t fucked that badly…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
None of it worked.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
None of the software works. None of the things… The best that are out there…
Casey:
Performance… Are completely fucked…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, “This won’t read that but it will not put this and it won’t do this and, oh, the sound doesn’t work and the sync is off and blablabla…”
Jeff:
Oh, and worse, like, the audio works and the video doesn’t… Oh, it goes on.
Casey:
Yeah. “Oh, did you install the codec pack? Oh, you didn’t install the codec pack.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“Well, which codec pack?” “Oh, I don’t know. It depends on which system you’re running.” “Oh, is that XP, too? Oh, okay. Well, they changed the [inaudible 31:51]” It’s like, okay…
Jeff:
Yeah. Bring it on back.
Casey:
It’s a fucking bitmap that changes over time, people. It’s a bitmap that changes over time.
Jeff:
Well, that’s why they never fixed any of these problems is they knew that if they did, you’d actually install it…
Casey:
There would only be another email that would be worse, yeah…
Jeff:
And that one would’ve been really bad.
Casey:
So then, this is like the expanded, right, it gets… You can dig deeper and deeper, right? So the first thing is — Why did we want him to install Movie Maker? That’s only gonna go wrong if he actually gets it running.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So that’s bad, right? But then, there’s the Meta. There’s the thing that’s one deeper than that which is I’ve seen the guy. I’ve seen how he dresses, I’ve seen how much creativity is in this person. We, under no circumstances, want creativity software of any kind installed or working on his computer. He should not be making films. He has a lot of money. Hire an out of work porn director or something to make your home videos because, otherwise, it’s gonna be the worst fucking White fest with, like, the sepia tone filter and some really shitty music that he picked that sucks… You know, that’s what we’re gonna get out of that. And that’s not good. And people are gonna have to watch it because it’s fucking, like, you know, all of the people who are under him at his dinner party or something are gonna feel too bad about telling him…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That they really don’t want to watch another goddamn home video of his kids, right?
Jeff:
No, no, no. No, that’s just it. Like, since his world is different than ours, it’d be like, “Do you want to see videos of my kids? Yeah, umm… Bono’s in it.” And, like, it would have all these celebrities that are grudgingly appearing in his video. Oh, yeah, it’d be bad.
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
I also love the…
Casey:
Totally…
Jeff:
I also love the fact that in the next version of Windows…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
They just built Movie Maker in…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Which totally seems like the Movie Maker guys… You know, if you’re at Microsoft and you’re a sub-hundred million Dollar division…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You’re nobody.
Casey:
No. Yeah, you’re shit.
Jeff:
Right? You are nobody if you don’t have a hundred million. What this guy saw when he saw that email is he’s like, “Fucking pay dirt…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“I’m gonna get this… Now, we’re solving the problem not by fixing all they basically complained about…”
Casey:
“We can merge…” Yeah.
Jeff:
“We’re just gonna build it in.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“And now, I’m part of the OS.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And you’re like, “Wait, even if you did that, you didn’t fix the problem if it’s too hard to download software.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
What’s the matter with you people?
Casey:
Well, this is the thing right… This is the thing that would’ve saved them in that Justice Department lawsuit, right? If only the judge had ever tried to install software on the computer with Windows update, he would’ve been like, “[ Bake ] everything in. Put it all in. Put every fucking thing you ever make in there and never, ever, ever have people have to install it because I can’t fucking figure it out,” right? That was the problem.
Jeff:
They just need to give in…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And say, “If we can’t do this, this is the [inaudible 34:34]
Casey:
Because the opposite thing happened, right. In that lawsuit, they argued, “We can’t remove this thing. We can’t remove Internet Explorer. It’s not possible,” right? And the judge went and tried it and he was able to do it. Do you remember this?
Jeff:
Uh-huh.
Casey:
Right? He deleted the icon off the desktop or whatever. I’m sure he didn’t fucking remove, right, the Explorer, right?
Jeff:
No, he actually did. He went to a site…
Casey:
Okay. That said how to do to or something?
Jeff:
How to do it…
Casey:
Okay. So he removed it from the system, right?
Jeff:
Which is awesome…
Casey:
So I got news for you, baby. No one would ever argue that it’s difficult to fuck up some part of Windows that doesn’t work anymore, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Like…
Jeff:
That seems to be accidentally…
Casey:
“Oh, you got Internet Explorer to stop working?”
Jeff:
Wow.
Casey:
“Congratu-fucking-lations! No wonder you were appointed to a federal judge-ship…”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“You’re a fucking rocket scientist.” It’s like…
Jeff:
“I did that by going to YouTube.com.”
Casey:
Your 2-year old can fucking do it. Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
[inaudible 35:20]
Casey:
I don’t care what the hell…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You could get that to happen any day of the goddamned week. Leave the computer sitting around for a month without rebooting it and it’s already… It’ll do that on its own. It’s fucking automatic, right? You don’t need to do anything for that. What they should’ve shown him was how hard it is to get it working again. The reason we need to send this to you with the operating system is because if we didn’t, you’d never get it to fucking work. The only people who ever are able to distribute software for our operating system that works are other companies because we don’t have any idea how to do that. We’ve never successfully done it before. Right? You know?
Jeff:
It’s brutal.
Casey:
So, yeah…
Jeff:
It is crazy.
Casey:
I think they would’ve been fine. They would’ve made their case and it would’ve been, like, totally obvious.
Jeff:
Game over.
Casey:
Yeah. [ They’re just like ], “Alright, guys, you know what, bundle anything you want with it. I’m sorry we brought it up.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
“You know, I’m really sorry.”
Jeff:
Well, the thing that… You know, the kind of thing that whenever anyone who’s not super techie asks about Linux or all those…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
They would say, “Hey, you know, it’s free, right? That’s weird,” you know?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And the thing I’ve always said is, like, “Yeah, it doesn’t matter that much because Linux is always 5 years behind Windows. Whatever Windows does, it does about that…”
Casey:
Sometime later…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But with… Hey, XP’s about 5 years old…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Ubuntu is pretty damned good now.
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
And it’s been about 5 years.
Casey:
Well, that’s the problem…
Jeff:
That gap has closed and Vista hasn’t moved 5 years ahead.
Casey:
Is… Yeah, since Vista didn’t add anything…
Jeff:
It’s caught up.
Casey:
That means that now, the 5-year… Like, normally Microsoft would’ve shipped something that had something in it that you want maybe or something…
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
Well, I actually think… So…
Jeff:
I just think they’re done.
Casey:
I have no problems making the prediction that one of two things happens — Either Microsoft completely cleans out, like, just totally changes their approach to shipping operating systems and the people and everything, like they just totally renovate which sometimes happened. Like, I think IBM kind of did that at some point in their history, right? They, like, reinvented the company. That didn’t necessarily mean that the products stayed in place though. But, you know… Who knows what…
Jeff:
Think of the personnel at Microsoft…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
They’re stubborn in their right-ness…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I don’t think they have it in them.
Casey:
They might not have the capability.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Well, anyway…
Jeff:
I think…
Casey:
Either that happens or it’s no longer… It shrinks down to 50% or less, over time…
Jeff:
Right. It just gets smaller and smaller and less well-known…
Casey:
Well, what are they offering right now is the thing… ‘Cos this is the thing, right, Windows has never been an operating system that you buy for the features, right? Like, Apple kind of… That’s been Apple’s thing, right? It’s like… It’s not really… I’m not really buying an operating system. I’m just buying a computer that does some shit. And if it happens to do the shit I want, I’d buy it. And if it doesn’t, I don’t. Right? That’s kind of what they’re selling to you, right? So it’s like, if you don’t need to run anything specific, we’ve got you covered, right. We’ve got the snazzy little foofoos that do this and so on and, you know, hey, you can be a rock star, too, and then you sell things on iTune and it we’ll take 70% of that, thank you, you know, all that stuff?
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
They seem to be [ be staking at ] that. But Microsoft, that’s never been what they said, right? Their value proposition to people has never been like, “Windows, it’s got great pre-installed applications.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
First of all, I don’t even know if there are any pre--… Like, Solitaire? I don’t know. Like, what are even the pre-installed applications?
Jeff:
Yeah, Freecell, baby.
Casey:
Yeah, Freecell. So since that’s never been it, really, what I look at at Windows was it was always a much more reliable piece of software as far as distributing applications, right, for developers…
Jeff:
Other people’s stuff…
Casey:
Other people’s stuff and so on that ran on a wide range of hardware, right? It’s like, you can put a lot of random shit into a Windows box and go buy some weird ass piece of software and it worked, you know. It may not have been pretty but it got working, you know. And what I’ve noticed lately… I didn’t notice this when XP originally came out because when XP originally came out, it was pretty much the same as 2000, okay. Nothing was happening with any of XP’s new features. We didn’t even know they were there. Side by side assemblies…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
For example… Right? I didn’t even know that existed when XP first came out…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because nothing shipped with that.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So it’s not an issue, right?
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
It was not an issue, okay. So what I’m seeing now, nowadays (6-7 years into it, right), with XP is now that these features are starting to show up, .NET framework situations, side by side assemblies, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
All of these things that were new in XP that weren’t getting used before… They are extraordinarily unreliable.
Jeff:
Very fragile.
Casey:
In the past 2 months alone, I have had at least 4 pieces of commercial software fail to work for these reasons that are…
Jeff:
When you get the wrong runtime DLL, yeah…
Casey:
Very technically complicated failure cases that are solely Microsoft’s fault.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They have nothing to do with the developer. The developer just used .NET for something or they used a version of Visual Studio and forgot to check some checkbox, right, like… Nothing do with the developer. The developer just didn’t happen to know that this was gonna happen…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because how would you if you haven’t gotten bitten with it, right? So what I’m seeing happen now is if you compare your experience of an operating system using Windows versus using Mac OS X versus using Ubuntu, that difference of “I can go on the internet, download an executable and run it and buy this weird sound card and stick it in and it worked”, right, is gone…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And as far as I know, Microsoft has nothing left to sell. If backwards compatibility isn’t rock solid, if software distribution… What are they selling you?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
If it takes me just as long to get my old software working as it would for me to figure out how to get it to run under Wine…
Jeff:
Why bother?
Casey:
I just paid $200 for nothing.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s that fucking simple. And it ain’t gonna take people that long to figure that out.
Jeff:
Yep. I think…
Casey:
So they’re in real trouble. For the first time, I honestly think they’re in real trouble. For real. Not just, like… ‘Cos I’ve never been a Linux alarmist. 5 years ago, I wasn’t saying, like, “Linux is taking over the world.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But nowadays, you’re in trouble. I don’t know if it’s gonna be Apple. I don’t know if it’s gonna be Linux. But they’re in trouble. They’re in big fucking trouble.
Jeff:
I don’t think it’s gonna be anybody. It’s just like with emulation…
Casey:
[ XP ]…
Jeff:
Well, with emula--… Well, no. I just mean like with emulation, the operating system just doesn’t matter that much.
Casey:
Anymore? Yeah.
Jeff:
Right? It’s like I’ll use my old XP license ‘til the end of time…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
To run the shit that only runs under XP. Nothing else matters that much.
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
So the only thing that I think they’re gonna own for a little while longer is the high end apps like AutoCAD, things like that…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Because those tend to use the hardware a little bit deeper. They’re a little bit trickier to get running.
Casey:
That said, like, a friend of mine was like, “Oh, yeah, your game runs under Wine at full frame rate.” I was like, okay…
Jeff:
Yeah, I would believe that. Well, games I think are easier in this weird way in that tiny visual fidelity problems are harder to notice than you will in a 3D Studio package if all the lines are dra--…
Casey:
I’m sorry. Tiny fidelity problems?
Jeff:
Well, what do you mean?
Casey:
What do you mean?
Jeff:
Well, what I mean is…
Casey:
Do you mean to say that when you run 3D Studio on your native machine, you don’t have major fidelity problems all the goddamned time?
Jeff:
Well…
Casey:
I’m lucky if the window fucking repaints half the time.
Jeff:
Yes. Well, no. What I mean is, like, in a game, if you had the 0.5 difference in [ UV coordinate ]…
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
If you get that wrong all the time…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
In a game, you’ll only notice if the [ the hut ] is drawn non-bilinear…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
’Cos it’ll look like shit, right? In 3D Studio, all their menus are gonna be wrong. I mean, it’s just one…
Casey:
No, this is what I’m trying to get across. I’m honestly failing to get something across.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
You run 3D Studio on any machine… I don’t care if it’s… You could pick out of their list of approved machines and order that machine, okay…
Jeff:
And you’ll still have problems?
Casey:
Your shit will be fucked up so fucking hard…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Right, it will be fucked beyond belief, no problem. They built that into the system, right? So it’s almost like 3D Studio will be easier to run under Wine because all the shit that Wine fucks up, you’ll just think is the same. You’ll be like, “Oh, yeah, that fucks up on Windows all the time, too.”
Jeff:
I see. I see what you’re saying.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s just another crazy [ video cracker problem ]…
Casey:
Another layer of awesomeness on top of it, right.
Jeff:
Anyway, other than that, I don’t see a lot of reason… Like, in fact, all of our stuff runs on Wine quite well. I tried it…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And those use a lot of Windows API’s that are, like, the multimedia API’s and all that stuff…
Casey:
Yep. Yeah.
Jeff:
They just run fine.
Casey:
And the games multithread it…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Right? It’s doing background loading…
Jeff:
Interestingly…
Casey:
That shit all works fine on Wine, apparently. It’s like, “Okay.”
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
“Fucking good job, guys. I’m impressed.”
Jeff:
Also, the other nice thing about Wine is there’s lots of places that if I’m like, “Why is when I grab the texture pointer that a user gives me and then they release it… Why does it release? Why didn’t it do an add ref here?”
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
You’re like… Because there’s a lot of weird rules for reference…
Casey:
Shit that happens, yeah…
Jeff:
With [ DPD ]…
Casey:
Oh, and they worked them all out… So you can go look at it.
Jeff:
They worked them all out so you can sit in there and go, “Oh, I see. When you get a texture, it doesn’t add ref. But if you ask for the texture off the surface, it does ad ref.”
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
So it’s actually becoming reasonable source code for the Windows API which is…
Casey:
Oh…
Jeff:
’Cos it’s public. Hey…
Casey:
So anyway, between being becoming an unstable platform for shipping applications…
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
Losing backwards compatibility…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Which with .NET has become an even worse problem than it already was, a very bad problem. And side by side assemblies times a thousand, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And the DRM-ness now with the, like, all these headaches with, “Oh, my software isn’t registering,” you know, blablabla… I think… I mean, it’s a matter of time now. They are just waiting to fail.
Jeff:
Yeah, my big things are since they squandered 5 years of time with Vista…
Casey:
Yep, that’s a big hit.
Jeff:
Linux has caught up…
Casey:
It sure did.
Jeff:
And all there really is is the relearning of a new… All the stupid shit that you’re like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“Oh, this is here not here…”
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
They’re just stupid rules that you’re more used to on Windows, certainly. But I think that that time is finally come where it wouldn’t be too bad. I think the things I’d miss…
Casey:
And installing Ubuntu… I mean, when I was in high school, you know, in 1993 or something… We used to run Linux, right. [ We used to run Slackware… ]
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Distribution… Right… You know, that’s just a ridiculous thing to do, you know?
Jeff:
It’s [inaudible 45:23]
Casey:
But nowadays, it’s like, if you install… ‘Cos I did this on a new machine. I installed Windows XP and Ubuntu. Ubuntu is easier.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Their install is much more streamlined.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You put in a CD, you push a button and it does everything. There’s no, like, weird-ass text mode, like, installation screens with function keys. It’s like… No. They have a graphical fucking UI that pops up. You click on the shit…
Jeff:
If you run it under Windows…
Casey:
It automatically partitions your hard drive if you want it to. You don’t even have to do that manually. You could just be like, “I don’t know. I don’t know what that means. Do it for me.” It’s like, “Okay, I will.”
Jeff:
The best thing I like about it…
Casey:
It is shocking.
Jeff:
Is it even installs… You can install it in a directory under your NT partition.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
So like, you boot under Windows, it’s fine. You boot up under it, it’s just… Hey, your C drive is just a volume…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
All your same data is there.
Casey:
It’s nice. Absolutely. It’s awesome.
Jeff:
You can actually reboot… So it’s like, I don’t even partition the drive.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So between the 5-year gap and emulation picking up the rest… ‘Cos [ VM Ware runs quite well ]…
Casey:
They’re in trouble. Short sell. Short sell.
Jeff:
Well, it’s gonna take a long time but it’s just gonna be one of those slow…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Painful…
Casey:
Just sent into nothingness, yeah.
Jeff:
Just sent into irrelevance…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And then that’s when the patents are gonna come out and be ugly for the industry 10 years from now…
Casey:
That’d be a problem, yeah. Well, if we’re lucky, it’s 20 years.
Jeff:
Yeah. But we’ll be done. Anyway, so yeah, I think the big thing I just thought about the email is just it’s totally non-newsworthiness…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
That everyone’s like, “Wow, he’s really down on it.” It’s like, he’s not a dumb guy. Anybody there who has any intelligence would say, “This is ridiculous.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
He just, you know… Hey, he’s just telling the truth.
Casey:
So, I had a… Speaking about the future of computing. I stepped (trepidatiously, if you will) into the future which a lot of people I think have been living in for a while and I’ve decided I was gonna try it. I was one of the last people to get a cellphone, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I mean, I didn’t get a cellphone until 2005, right?
Jeff:
Yeah, you held out a long time.
Casey:
Most people I knew had had cellphones for many, many years, right? So obviously, you know… I’m certainly not one of the last people in the world to get a cellphone.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I mean, the last techie person, right? A lot people haven’t… You know… So I was like, “Okay.” So what I decided to do was purchase music over the internet, which I’d never done before.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Okay. ‘Cos it has to be…
Jeff:
Oh, I see. This isn’t related to the cellphone. This is just another thing that you’ve decided to try.
Casey:
Right. This is another thing that I was very late to the party because I didn’t feel like it was ready for me, yet.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I wasn’t like… I don’t… I’m not happy about this yet, right?
Jeff:
How’s the party?
Casey:
So basically, you know, I… For iTunes, right, it’s AC-3 or whatever the fucking… I don’t remember what they’re for. Some Apple bullshit, right?
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
It’s like… I don’t know what that is. It’s like MPEG4 encoded audio or something, right, or some weird shit like this…
Jeff:
Oh, it’s just Dolby Digital…
Casey:
Dolby… Okay, whatever it is…
Jeff:
AC-3…
Casey:
So AC-3… You’re the codec guy so I’m sure you know all these things. I don’t know. So I wasn’t into that. I don’t want to install any iTunes store. I don’t want any of that. So it’s like, once there’s a way for me to just click on a thing and then purchase an MP3…
Jeff:
Fine.
Casey:
I’ll try it. Now, it’s a little complicated because obviously, I’m never gonna buy anything from Amazon.com, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
After the 1-Click Patent thing, I was like, “I’m never shopping here again,” and I never did.
Jeff:
Nope.
Casey:
So they have an MP3 store. I’m guessing it’s probably good. I don’t know. I’ve never used it.
Jeff:
I’ve never used it.
Casey:
But…
Jeff:
It’s supposed to be complicated but… Yeah.
Casey:
Maybe. Yeah. But I know there was much… Like Napster sells MP3’s now, right? Wal-Mart sells MP3’s?
Jeff:
Reel…
Casey:
You know, Reel… There’s lots of people selling MP3’s. So I was like, “I’ll give it a shot because I’m really tired of having to go buy CD’s, taking it out of the thing, rip it, whatever…”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And I listen to a lot of music. So I went through a bunch of these and tried it. And first, I will just get out of the way the two places that were completely bass-ackwards fucked in the fucking skull with a 10-foot cock.
Jeff:
Okay. We’re gonna start with the cocked ones or the non-cocked?
Casey:
No, the ones that… ‘Cos it doesn’t take me very long to go, “This site is great. Try it.”
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Right? That’s…
Jeff:
Start with the ones that you didn’t give a shot, just pick the really bad ones.
Casey:
Well, no. Those were like… Amazon, I wouldn’t try because of the 1-Click thing…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Wal-Mart, I didn’t try because somehow, although they say they sell MP3’s, as far as I can tell, they don’t seem to actually do that.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Like, very, very few songs seem to be available in MP3 format. So it was like a non-issue. Like, it seemed like you could just buy…
Jeff:
It’s all Jesus albums and…
Casey:
Maybe. You could buy, like, singles, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
You could buy like the singles off albums…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You couldn’t just buy the album. I don’t know if it’s a licensing issue.
Jeff:
Sam Walton’s watching you in heaven.
Casey:
So first of all, I wanna say, by far, the best site… This site is so good it’s frightening.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I was like, “These guys are insane.” I was blow away by how good it was. Was Amie Street, AmieStreet.com.
Jeff:
Okay. Never even heard of them.
Casey:
Well, so here… There’s only one problem with them which is that they don’t have the big licenses, right. So going there and trying to buy…
Jeff:
The latest Britney Spears?
Casey:
The latest Britney Spears… It’s not gonna happen. They just don’t have a licenses, right?
Jeff:
Well, that’s unacceptable.
Casey:
If music companies had any fucking clue, they would, because this site annihilates everyone else. Anyway, here’s how cool this site is. They thought of, like… They were good programmers or something…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
They’re on top of it, right? Just some of the things that they do that are smart, right — If you buy shit, they bundle it into a zip when you download it.
Jeff:
Okay. Very good.
Casey:
It doesn’t seem like a huge deal. Nobody else fucking does this.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, you buy an album and you get to click on every goddamned MP3 or something, right? Okay. We’ll get to that in a minute but… Right? So you buy a bunch of shit there, they just give you a zip file that they generate that’s got all the shit you bought and you download it, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
You want to download it again later? No problem. They remember what you bought. You download it again. It’s all great, right? The price of the songs when you upload the song as an artist? Free. Every time that someone buys it, it goes up a cent. So basically, songs start out being free for you to download…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
For whoever it is, right? So I’m Casey Muratori. No one’s ever heard of me. I want to sell my album. I upload it to Amie Street and people start downloading the tracks for free. As soon as… Probably not one person but as soon as 10 people download it, it goes up to a penny.
Jeff:
Ah, I see.
Casey:
Right? So eventually, when a thousand or a hundred people, let’s say, have downloaded a song, it’s 99 cents, the full… It’s the price of iTunes or something, right? So it’s got this great thing of music that no one’s ever heard of that no one wants to buy is free to try. So it starts the sort of… As an artist, that sounds awesome. It’s like, “I can upload my songs here. People can download them for free. But as soon as it starts to catch on, I start making money.”
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
I’m with you.
Casey:
They give you 70% of the profit.
Jeff:
Wow.
Casey:
To the artist, okay. So that… Right on the front page, they’re like, “You get 70% of your sales after your user name makes $5 for a song… After a song makes $5 for us, you get 70%.”
Jeff:
And so… Wait, do they sign their agreements with the artists individually or do they go…
Casey:
When you upload your music, I agree to that or not. I mean, I don’t know. I haven’t sold… I don’t make music for a living so I have never tried to sell something but I read about…
Jeff:
But they haven’t gone to, like…
Casey:
Yeah. This is the problem is it’s artist-driven, right?
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
So they haven’t… They’re never gonna get Matchbox 20 or something because some asshole at, like, EMI or something isn’t interested in that or whatever…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But it’s brilliant. [inaudible 52:44] Furthermore, as a user, when you’re on this site, every time you pay the money, right… So you buy blocks, right. It’s like Microsoft points. You pay $25, you get a certain amount of points, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And you can download songs for a while until you’ve spent that money. When you put in the money, every time you put in money, you get these things called Recommendations which is your ability to tag a song and say, “This song is really good.”
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Right. And those go into a pool that are kind of like, when a song comes up and it’s having a lot of recommendations, it’ll start being featured on the front pages. So you can promote bands you like.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Right. But you can’t do it willy-nilly. You’ve got to pay to do it. So can’t be a shill. You have to actually be paying to be a shill, right?
Jeff:
I see. Okay.
Casey:
So it’s kind of like that. When you pick songs at a low price that then end up being a high price, they pay you money back. So it’s kind of like a gambling thing where if you can find songs that are good and promote them… So it encourages users to go seek out new good music and tell people about it.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Everything about this site, I thought was… I’m like, “These people are awesome. You can have all of my money. I love you. Here’s a big kiss.”
Jeff:
But they don’t have any songs.
Casey:
Well, I’ve actually found 3 artists I really liked on there. And they do have some kind of fun… I think they’re Canadians. So like, Barenaked Ladies or something…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Puts all their stuff on there. So there’s some people who do. Sister Hazel…
Jeff:
[ There’s some bacon ] on the site.
Casey:
Yeah. I don’t know if they’re Canadian or not but anyway… Point being… So that site’s fabulous. So I’ll just say that. And the other thing that was really good is Snowcap which is basically… It’s not a site for buying music. It’s just a flash control that artists can embed for free on to their website that allows you to purchase the music and they take some royalties. So that’s fine ‘cos it’s like…
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
You go to the artist’s site… I don’t know why all artists don’t automatically have this on their site. Probably licensing issues, I’m guessing. But basically, like, you can go to an artist’s site, you listen to their music. You’re like, “This is good.” You click on a button. You buy the music. End of story. Perfect. I’m like, great. That’s how it should work, right?
Jeff:
And they do the credit card processing…
Casey:
They do… Right. So they’re basically like a Digital River-ish kind of a thing, right? It’s like, “We don’t give a fuck about who you are. We are not gonna try and sign a license with you or do that. We’re just… If you want us to charge a credit card and provide an MP3 file, we will do that.”
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Okay. Now we get to the hot… The awesomeness, right.
Jeff:
The glory…
Casey:
So the awesomeness is Napster. Napster takes the cake for most awesomeness in the awesome universe, okay. The only reason that I went to Napster was ‘cos they’re one of the few places I could find that allows you to purchase an MP3 without installing an application and download it to your computer where they have some of the big licenses. So if you want a pop song or something…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They probably do have it.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
After that point…
Jeff:
It’s all downhill.
Casey:
They sucked harder than I could ever have imagined someone sucking.
Jeff:
C’mon, Sean Fanning. He’s awesome.
Casey:
No. It’s… I don’t know who that is.
Jeff:
He’s the dude that did it originally. He’s just a goof.
Casey:
I mean, it’s so bad, Jeff. I can’t even tell you. So here’s a…
Jeff:
I mean, he’s not a goof. He seems like a nice guy…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
You wouldn’t hire him to be your programmer.
Casey:
Right. I wouldn’t hire him to, like, fucking record this podcast although we’re not doing such a hot job ourselves lately. Anyway…
Jeff:
Damn it…
Casey:
So just a small sampling of the awesomeness that is Napster…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Part one — If you want to buy an album on Napster, right…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
You look on Purchase… “Oh, there’s an album I’m listening to. I want to buy this album.” I go up there and go in the album. A, they do not keep track of what tracks are in which order on an album, right. So if you buy an album from them, you will get the alphabetical track ordering…
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
And you have to go look it up on someone else’s website to find out what the fuck order the artist wanted you to listen to the songs in, right. If you don’t care about that. I care. I at least want to know if there was an order to these songs the first time I listen to it, right.
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
Some songs have the beginning of the next song on it, right. They’re joined, track-wise…
Jeff:
[ Right. Editing glitch. ]
Casey:
And it’s like, who f--… Okay. You wouldn’t know. You just hear weird shit at the beginning of a song and weird shit at the end of another song. You might not even…
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
2, they don’t guaranteed-ly have all the tracks of an album but they don’t tell you.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
So you may buy an album and it has 11 tracks, right, and it turns out there’s 14 tracks on that album.
Jeff:
That is awesome.
Casey:
You had no idea. There’s no way for you to know this fact, right? So you’re like, “Oh, yeah. I just bought the new Britney Spears album.” And they’re like, “Oh, yeah, did you like song bla?” And you’re like, “Uh, that song’s not on there.” “Yes, it is.”
Jeff:
Come on…
Casey:
It’s like, “What? Are you fucking kidding me?” At least show the track in red, like, “This track is not included.”
Jeff:
“We have no license for this.”
Casey:
The best part about that is sometimes, they do, okay.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Sometimes, when you buy the album, it’s the other way around. There’s tracks on there that you can’t buy separately, okay. And this happens, they know…
Jeff:
They’re telling you.
Casey:
When this is gonna happen.
Jeff:
Right. Right.
Casey:
No, no, no. You and I know, too. It’s when there’s some piece of shit band that’s only had one single their whole goddamned life and you only want that song, okay…
Jeff:
That’s when you [ know ]…
Casey:
Right? This is what happened. I had this experience, right. I was pretty desperate for music. This is why we ended up going on to the internet in the first place, alright?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So I’m buying any song I can think of that I’ve ever liked for 5 minutes. I’m buying, right? So we’re getting down into places where I don’t… I don’t want an album by this band, okay… Third Eye Blind, okay, I don’t want to hear an album by this band. They’re terrible, right? I wanted to buy “Semi-Charmed Life”, right?
Jeff:
That’s it. Yeah.
Casey:
You know the song I mean? The only song they’ve ever fucking had on the radio. Well, they had, like, one other one, right? It was terrible, okay.
Jeff:
Yeah. They’re all terrible.
Casey:
I’m just like, “Oh, I just want to get and buy that song. I remember liking that song.” So I’m going through all those songs like that.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And sometimes, actually, when I go through songs like that, that I assume the band sucks, the band doesn’t turn out to suck and I’ll buy the album, right. But Third Eye Blind I know sucks. I’ve heard other songs and they’re terrible. I go to buy that song. I click on the MP3 button and it’s like, “This song can’t be purchased without the album.”
Jeff:
Oh…
Casey:
The only one. It’s the only one on that album. They know that everything else on the album sucks and that nobody would buy the rest of the songs. So they’re like, “You can’t do that. I’m sorry. We’ll never make any money if we only sell this song.” Okay. That’s awesomeness. So we’re awesome across the board, right. But then, they decide that there’s got to be some extra awesomeness, okay. And the extra awesomeness comes in this form. When you download an MP3 from Napster, you’re only allowed to download it once, okay.
Jeff:
Wait, what do you mean?
Casey:
You only download it once. That means exactly what I said. You get one chance to download a song that you have purchased, okay.
Jeff:
And then it’s up to you to back it up?
Casey:
No. What did I just say? You get one chance to download the song.
Jeff:
Okay, well…
Casey:
Okay? There is a link that says “Download”. You click on the download link and you download the song. There will never be another download link displayed for that song unless you buy it again for 99 cents…
Jeff:
Holy cow.
Casey:
Period. Okay.
Jeff:
Wow.
Casey:
If it was part of an album and you can only buy the album, you’ll have to buy the whole goddamned album again if you want to re-download that song, okay. Not after 3 days, not after 30 days, not after an hour. 1 click. It gets better. That click does not guarantee they have to give the song to you.
Jeff:
How do you mean?
Casey:
So…
Jeff:
It can fail like…
Casey:
Oh, yeah. Sure.
Jeff:
“Server busy”?
Casey:
Oh, yeah. So here’s what happens. Let’s say you want to download the songs. So you’ve got these download links, right? You click on one of the links. It goes, “Okay.” Starts downloading the songs to you, alright. I don’t know if you’ve ever had this experience before but if you start, like in Firefox… If you click on something while another request is pending, it may drop the old request.
Jeff:
Right. Yep.
Casey:
There goes your song.
Jeff:
You’re shitting me.
Casey:
I’m not shitting you.
Jeff:
You can’t click on that link again…
Casey:
Nope..
Jeff:
It says you’ve already downloaded it?
Casey:
That’s right.
Jeff:
Holy cow. And like… Is this just… Are the forums just filled with angry people?
Casey:
I don’t know.
Jeff:
You’re just like, “I’m done.”
Casey:
I was just like… Well, now it’s like, “Okay, basically, I’m not buying anything from them unless I, like, can’t find it anywhere else.” And now that I know the magic mojo of how you work the site, it’s not so dangerous, right. But wow. I mean, how are you this bad that you can’t tell whether you served them the whole file? It’s not a mystery. Your fucking server either sent all the bits or it didn’t.
Jeff:
Well, even then, you know that they bought it. Like, part of the service of offering music online…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is I shouldn’t have to back up 12 gigabytes of data…
Casey:
I don’t fucking know, dude…
Jeff:
Because, like, you know what I’ve ordered. Even Amazon does that.
Casey:
But here’s my point, okay.
Jeff:
Wow.
Casey:
Maybe their music licenses don’t allow them to do that, right. Maybe the RAA or whatever was like, “No, you can’t offer them to download it more than once,” right? That’s fine with me. The point is the technology exists for you to know whether I got the goddamned file.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s not up in the air. You don’t have to go to my machine and look whether I got it or not. You know.
Jeff:
That’s…
Casey:
And you didn’t serve it to me.
Jeff:
That’s not built into PHP so they don’t know.
Casey:
Oh, fucking assholes. Just unbelievable. So don’t go to Napster.
Jeff:
Wow.
Casey:
Just don’t go to Napster.
Jeff:
And that was one of the better ones. Like…
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
Well, no… I mean, you didn’t even to, like, the Real Site where you download these crazy app that takes over your…
Casey:
Oh, right, yeah… Well, Napster, to be fair… You can get even more fucked by Napster which is you can download their application for this…
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
Which is just a whole ‘nother world of awesome. I didn’t go that route.
Jeff:
Wow. That is pretty crazy.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That is… Wow…
Casey:
It’s awesome. Anyhow…
Jeff:
My goodness…
Casey:
We’re basically out of time for this podcast. I understand that we did have one other thing that I know you wanted to talk about which I’m not sure what it was. It was, like, gender of calling conventions, you said…
Jeff:
Oh, yeah…
Casey:
I don’t know… Do you want to… Do you think you could get that in in 10 minutes?
Jeff:
Well, yeah. This is just something I realized while I was… I’d been writing this little API interceptor thing lately…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Just a general one that I want to use… I want to make it strong enough for general codes so I can actually use it not just for debugging.
Casey:
Over and over again…
Jeff:
Yeah. Well, not just for debugging. I have some big plans for it.
Casey:
You’re gonna ship it…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
In products?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
But one of the things I’d been playing with a lot lately is experimenting with a lot of calling conventions while I’ve been writing the code that intercepts the front of the thing to set up the little trampling calls and all that. Anyway, I realized in my brain…
Casey:
Yeah…
Jeff:
I never realized this before…
Casey:
Okay, this is a first time. You had an epiphany.
Jeff:
Yes. I realized…
Casey:
You had never noticed this. You were introspecting…
Jeff:
While I was typing in some code…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That… So there’s [inaudible 63:45] Standard Call, Pascal…
Casey:
Okay. So you’re just talking about the way that stack gets setup?
Jeff:
Yeah, basically the calling direction…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I realized that in my brain, I’d classified [inaudible 63:55]
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
As feminine…
Casey:
What?
Jeff:
Pascal and Standard Call as masculine… And I…
Casey:
Why?
Jeff:
I have no idea. I literally… When I realized…
Casey:
You’re just talking about the fact that, like, [ color ] pushes or pops thing… Like, who’s pushing and popping…
Jeff:
For whatever reason, the names or something got placed in the part of my brain that had gender…
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
And I realized that if you asked me how that function is and it was a [inaudible 64:22] I would’ve said “she”…
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
And if it was Standard Call, I would’ve said, “No, he’s not done yet.” And I don’t know where…
Casey:
That is fascinating.
Jeff:
Isn’t that totally weird? And I totally realized it while… [ That all the way ]… And then, I also realized that ones that have no calling convention…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I have no idea. They don’t have gender.
Casey:
Oh, it’s like an it. It’s like a neutered dog or something like that. I don’t know what that is.
Jeff:
No. It’s not in the part of my brain that does assign gender.
Casey:
Oh.
Jeff:
Just those. So I can, like… I have…
Casey:
But things always have a calling convention…
Jeff:
I know.
Casey:
So you just need… You haven’t assigned one.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And so, yes…
Casey:
So if it’s using whatever the default is, then it’s not gendered…
Jeff:
Right. Exactly.
Casey:
But if it explicitly lists its calling convention, it’s male or female based on the [ name ].
Jeff:
Then you assign it something like Mary or…
Casey:
Yeah, that’s pretty fucked up.
Jeff:
Isn’t that crazy?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I was… It was weird to be typing and realizing that I was working on a she while I was trying to get it to do things…
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
And that’s also funny because the C calling convention is more macho in the sense that it can totally fuck you up because you’ve got…
Casey:
I see…
Jeff:
The [ caller ] cleans up and if he doesn’t clean up right, stack’s fucked up…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Pascal and Standard Call clean up after themselves…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
So… Yeah… Anyway…
Casey:
Yeah, that’s true because, it’s like…
Jeff:
So one is…
Casey:
If something cleans up after itself, that’s not masculine, right?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Male people do not clean up after themselves.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Right? If you’ve ever been in a men’s room, you know this is true.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
They’re inspecific…
Casey:
It’s obviously not feminine…
Jeff:
If it’s near, it’s good enough.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But no, yeah… I don’t know why because it seems like the C one should be the harder core…
Casey:
Yeah. No, this is definitely true. If a man is going to use a bathroom, he expects whoever runs that bathroom to have set it up and to clean it up. But he is not gonna participate in that process. Whatever he does in the bathroom…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
He just thinks someone else is gonna clean it up, right? Whereas that is not what you said about the calling convention.
Jeff:
Exactly.
Casey:
You said the opposite. You were like, the thing that actually tidies up before it leaves is masculine…
Jeff:
I don’t know what’s going on.
Casey:
Yes. It was totally opposite. You’re totally inverted there somehow.
Jeff:
Yep. I don’t know what’s going on.
Casey:
Fascinating.
Jeff:
Anyway, that was my non-informational but brain-weirdness that I wanted to bring up.
Casey:
Alright, well…
Jeff:
Well, we are out of time.
Casey:
That’s it. That’s the end.
Jeff:
Well, okay. So hey, everybody, remember, we need… I want you to put up some name suggestions for the…
Casey:
Oh, for the website.
Jeff:
For the website…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Some names for the Jeff & Casey Show domain.
Casey:
Oh, do you think we could get .Jeff&Casey?
Jeff:
.Jeff.Casey?
Casey:
No, .Jeff&Casey…
Jeff:
Okay, just .Jeff&Casey?
Casey:
Podcast.Jeff&Casey… ‘Cos didn’t the ICANN rules…
Jeff:
Oh, yeah. You’re right.
Casey:
They just announced that they’ll be considering suffixes?
Jeff:
That’s right. They’re having all kinds of crazy ones.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Yep. Yeah, that’s totally true. I totally…
Casey:
Maybe we can get Jeff&Casey.podcast…
Jeff:
Or Jeff&Casey.Jeff&Casey? Or Jeff.Casey….
Casey:
.Casey… Wow…
Jeff:
Anyway, give us your sugg--…
Casey:
I don’t want to know what that product implies, mathematically. Alright.
Jeff:
So I do want to say give us your suggestions. Go ahead and email us at Podcast@MollyRocket.com.
Casey:
Podcast@MollyRocket.com.
Jeff:
And we will see you in a week everybody. That was Charlie saying goodbye.
Casey:
Goodbye, Charles Winthrop Weiner.
Jeff:
See you everybody.
Casey:
Bye.
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casey muratori
the jeff and casey show - season 1 - episode 19
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