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The Technician
No Imperfections Noted
The Jeff and Casey Show
Jeff and Casey Time
Casey Muratori
Seattle, WA
The Choice to Kill
"I need to do more research before choosing my hot-girl movies."
Original air date: June 22nd, 2008
Topics. Carbon-based dog. Assassinations and torture. Rodney King. The steady state of the world. Celebrity Rehab. The Wheel of Peace. The steal-a-car show. Gia pseudo-porn AIDS. Screech sanchez. Movie and game ratings. Horse porn judge.
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Transcript
Jeff:
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Jeff & Casey Show.
Casey:
Hello, hello.
Jeff:
We’re doing another podcast on June 14th…
Casey:
The second of 2 podcasts…
Jeff:
Yes, at 10 PM. And we have lots of stuff to talk about because our recording… We haven’t podcast in a while we’re just packed with interesting things to say.
Casey:
Well, more specifically, it’s because you’re going to New York City.
Jeff:
Yes, I am going to New York City.
Casey:
That’s why we have to do, actually, this week.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
We don’t have a choice. Even we didn’t do two today…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Which we may have already wanted to but if we had not, we still would have had to because you’re not gonna be here next week and you don’t want to leave the listeners with not podcast.
Jeff:
That’s true. I can’t…
Casey:
We’d have a revolt in our hands…
Jeff:
I can’t leave the listeners.
Casey:
I don’t even want to imagine what would happen if a weekend rolled around and there wasn’t a Jeff & Casey podcast, it would be like… Do you remember when Rodney King… When the officers in the Rodney King trial were acquitted?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Okay… That is what it would be like across the country.
Jeff:
Just madness.
Casey:
In all the places, in all the two places where people listen to this podcast…
Jeff:
You know that…
Casey:
There would be rioting.
Jeff:
Rodney King is actually on “Celebrity Rehab” now, by the way.
Casey:
What the fuck is “Celebrity Rehab”?
Jeff:
It’s another one of those reality shows that you love so much.
Casey:
What is the show? They just go to rehab?
Jeff:
They’re a bunch of people with problems… With alcohol and drug dependency and they go and they live in a house with some…
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
Therapist… And he tries to fix them.
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
And then they get kicked out… I don’t know what they get kicked out for.
Casey:
If they didn’t rehab themselves?
Jeff:
I have no…
Casey:
If they broke the rules or something?
Jeff:
I have no idea. One of my things…
Casey:
Or they get voted off? “You’re not rehabbing enough. You’re not rehabbing well with the other players,” or something.
Jeff:
Well, one of my things for a future podcast is to give you a bunch of reality shows or concepts for them…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And then have you pick which ones are real and which ones are not…
Casey:
Oh, I see.
Jeff:
Because you do not follow the reality television…
Casey:
Yeah, I wouldn’t know.
Jeff:
And then, you could choose because some of them… You’d go, “There’s no way that’s legal.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You’d be like, “How on earth can they do that?” And they do.
Casey:
Actually, my friend, Matt Cornell, was telling me about this just yesterday. And then, it’s either a great idea for a reality show or one that already exists. He thought it already existed but then he couldn’t find it…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
So maybe he just fabricated it. Either way, it’s great. He’s like, “There’s a reality TV show where you try to steal a car, right?”
Jeff:
And they just follow you?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
What if you get… See, what if you get shot?
Casey:
I don’t know. But this is what I’m saying. That’s a fabulous TV show. I would watch a show where some random person with no particular expertise tries to steal a car. And not like a car that’s set up for you to steal but you have to walk down a street and steal one of the cars on it, right. And then the show pays for, like, any damages to the vehicle or whatever or gives the person whose car it was, you know, 50 grand or something…
Jeff:
I don’t think that one’s happening…
Casey:
Right? For the trouble…
Jeff:
Because that’s got…
Casey:
I know but I love it. He’s brilliant. I totally want that to be…
Jeff:
We carry guns in America.
Casey:
It might not be American. He said it was in the UK.
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
Where they don’t have the guns.
Jeff:
I see. They don’t have the guns.
Casey:
Even the cops don’t have the guns, I think…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Right? In the UK?
Jeff:
I think they carry guns now. They didn’t used to. But I think they’re all about…
Casey:
The Bobbies, if you will?
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I see. Yeah, I don’t feel that one. I don’t think you’re tapped into… You know, you need celebrities. You know, if celebrities…
Casey:
This isn’t me. It has nothing to do with me. This is… My friend, Matt, said this.
Jeff:
If D-list celebrities tried to steal a car…
Casey:
That’s a great show, too…
Jeff:
And then part of them tried to use their really shitty celebrity status to get out like…
Casey:
What if they had to steal their old car from when they were celebrity that they’ve had to sell? Alright? The show tracks down the car and owner of the car, tells the celebrity… Like, drops the celebrity off within the vicinity of the car…
Jeff:
Of the [ new ] car…
Casey:
And the celebrity has to go steal their old car back…
Jeff:
Back…
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
I would watch… Now that… Now you’re talking.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
See that’s… You need…
Casey:
So you’re saying D-list celebrity is a big part of it now, it’s a big part of the thing, right?
Jeff:
Yeah, definitely.
Casey:
Like Screech… If Screech is on the show, it’s thumbs up, right? Is that what you’re saying?
Jeff:
You need either D-list celebrities…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Or you need a sexually interested, like…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
You have to put… And Screech brings both. Like, he brings [ it smoothly ].
Casey:
Okay, if Screech is bringing anything sexually interesting to a show, I’m not watching that, okay. I’m not gonna watch that.
Jeff:
Apparently, you’re in the minority because you know about his…
Casey:
Oh, so Screech is hot is what you’re saying?
Jeff:
No. But you know about his sex tape, right?
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
This was maybe a year ago.
Casey:
Fucking Screech has a sex tape?
Jeff:
Screech has a sex tape. And it’s out there. It’s…
Casey:
What does that mean?
Jeff:
It’s out there.
Casey:
Like R. Kelly is peeing on him? How out there is out there?
Jeff:
Do you know hat a Dirty Sanchez is?
Casey:
I’ve heard the term… With or without the [ plastic wrap ].
Jeff:
He was applying the Dirty Sanchez…
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
And… Yes.
Casey:
Oh…
Jeff:
Screech gets it…
Casey:
I’m not looking forward to Sean’s links for this podcast. I’m telling you that right now.
Jeff:
No. You’re looking forward…
Casey:
Oh, no.
Jeff:
Hey, there was one thing… A very… On this topic, actually…
Casey:
Uh-huh…
Jeff:
And that is…
Casey:
Of which topic? The Dirty Sanchez?
Jeff:
Basically, yes.
Casey:
Oh, fuck. Alright…
Jeff:
And that is the judge…
Casey:
The judge?
Jeff:
Well, as we talked in the last podcast…
Casey:
Judge Reinhold? You’re talking D-list celebrities, that’s what I’m thinking in my head.
Jeff:
Yeah. Keep it up.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
No. As we we’re talking last time, America has pretty much the most wide open 1st Amendment Laws…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Pretty much in the world…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Our is pretty much anything goes.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But they’re testing that in Los Angeles. They brought as suit against a guy who makes very hardcore pornography, right. And that is hardcore bestiality, hardcore…
Casey:
Okay. Right. Yep.
Jeff:
Fetish stuff…
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
It’s brutal…
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
It’s not friendly.
Casey:
Right. Like, he’s… “My Pretty Pony 17” is his latest release out of the thing or whatever…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And then they beat the girl up at the end. It’s brutal stuff, right?
Casey:
Okay. Wait, how can you do that, though, just in general? The releasing of that film may be legal but the beating up of the person isn’t so much. So that’s a different…
Jeff:
If it’s consensual, like…
Casey:
Okay. So she said it’s okay is what you’re talk--… Is she signed off like a… I don’t even think you can even do that. You can’t something that’s like, “You can shoot me.” That doesn’t work.
Jeff:
No, no, no. Right, right. You can’t do that but, like, if you are making S&M movies…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Like, you can hurt the person, right?
Casey:
Okay. That sounds [ touchy ]…
Jeff:
Anyway, these are awful.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Anyway… And the prosecution believes that this guy has, in particular, has gone too far.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So they brought this… I mean most… Pornography is…
Casey:
What was the lawsuit that they brought, though?
Jeff:
Obscenity, that it went beyond… You know, so there are laws against obscenity.
Casey:
Okay. Yeah. Yes, there are.
Jeff:
It’s always been… You’ve always been able to kind of go to the First Amendment thing which allows you to do things that could normally be viewed as obscene…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
If you’re exercising your free speech, right?
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
To the limits of community standard or something… I can’t remember the exact words. Anyway…
Casey:
Yeah. Well, to be honest with you, I’m not super familiar with the case law there. To be honest. ‘Cos there’s different standards based on accessibility. Like, I’m not necessarily certain if obscenity laws prevent you from selling something if it’s not in a public place. I don’t really know.
Jeff:
There are interesting… I mean, that’s one of the things that games, right now, have a little bit more lenient standard than movies do. Games are classified closer to what books are whereas…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
If a book doesn’t have pictures…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It can be in a library…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Like, it can be pretty hardcore crap…
Casey:
Yes, that’s right.
Jeff:
That they can get in be people are like, “You don’t fuck with literature,” right?
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And games are closer to that than they are in movies in the sense that movies have a rating system that is somewhat well-enforced.
Casey:
Although that is purely voluntary.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
So that’s not a legal differentiation. Just to be clear. There’s no legal differentiation there. That is strictly because the movie industry is a bunch of pussies..
Jeff:
Well, wait, do movies…
Casey:
Or rather, they bow down.
Jeff:
That’s actually interesting for me to know ‘cos I didn’t know that.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
A movie theater, if they let somebody in to an NC-17 who is under 17 is not liable.
Casey:
Not liable for what?
Jeff:
Can’t be prosecuted for not enforcing that rating.
Casey:
Well, that’s a question that requires more legal knowledge than I have.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
All I can tell you is that the government does not control the labeling of something as NC-17.
Jeff:
Oh, yeah. I agree with that. Right.
Casey:
Now…
Jeff:
But I thought the difference…
Casey:
At some point, it may be a contractual violation that you could get prosecuted for. Whether it would be criminal…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
I don’t know. That’s a good question. I suspect it would not be criminal.
Jeff:
I just always assumed that it was that the punishment for movies was worse than selling a kid a Rated M game. And I thought that’s always what the BSA and stuff were fighting for…
Casey:
Gosh…
Jeff:
It’s like…
Casey:
Yeah. That’s a really tri--… You know what, I will look that up and I will have that answer for the next podcast.
Jeff:
Okay. I thought…
Casey:
Because that does interest me. All I can tell you is that, yeah, that rating system is voluntary because, basically…
Jeff:
But so is ours, really…
Casey:
The deal is… Oh, yeah. No, that’s what I’m saying. They both are. They’re both completely arbitrary, completely industry specific.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But what I was gonna say is there’s no real way… Like, the only thing that a court can do is prevent you from showing something to a minor that is found obscene.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
So as far as I know, in order for there to be a criminal prosecution of the movie theater as opposed to the person… Because if the person sneaks in, then they are trespassing, presumable, on the movie theater without… You know, or misrepresenting themselves. There’s probably criminal prosecution for the person who sneaks in to an R-Rated film, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But for the theater, you would first have to establish was obscene…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Which the rating NC-17 does not do.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So my non-lawyer, uninformed opinion (because I have not read the case law on this) is that first you would have to prove in court (as part of the criminal proceedings) that the film was obscene…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And then, you could find the theater guilty of providing obscene material to a minor. If you were unable to prove that it was obscene, I don’t think you could bring a criminal case.
Jeff:
I see. Okay.
Casey:
I don’t think there’s any way. You could… Perhaps the MPAA could bring a contractual civil suit against the theater, saying that, “You violated your contract which said that you would not let someone in.” Something like that might happen. But in order for it to be criminal, I think you would have to first prove the film obscene…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Which would be difficult to do.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It had better have some obscene shit in it.
Jeff:
Right. Okay.
Casey:
And the fact that a bunch of retards somewhere in California said that it was NC-17 is in no way admissible, I don’t think.
Jeff:
Sure. So that means it’s probably very similar to… I always assumed that they had a higher standard than we did right now. But it sounds like they’re all pretty much the same is that it’s a…
Casey:
That’s correct.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
What the MPAA does is they have about 30 people…
Jeff:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. That do the work.
Casey:
That watch the film…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That pick the rating. That’s it. And that’s not…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
The government does not give a shit about that. I don’t think that’s something that… Like, at best, you could probably introduce that as evidence that, culturally speaking, someone thought there was something wrong with the film.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But if that’s all you have, the Supreme Court (if it so got there, because I don’t think there’ve been a lot of tests of this)…
Jeff:
I don’t think…
Casey:
They’d just be like, “You’ve got to be fucking kidding me,” right? “Show us the fucking film and we’ll decide whether it’s obscene but this is bullshit. We’re not looking at this.”
Jeff:
Right. Well, anyway, the thing about this particular case that was interesting…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Was in the course of hearing this case, the Judge Kozinski, it was…
Casey:
Yeah. The [inaudible 12:38]
Jeff:
Kozinski. K-O-Z.
Casey:
Not Kazinski?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Was found that he had a website of his own…
Casey:
Yeah. Uh-huh…
Jeff:
And that he thought was closed to the public, was not viewable by the public. Turns out, on his website, there are several videos of explicit nature.
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
In fact, one with the half-dressed man…
Casey:
Oh, yeah.
Jeff:
Cavorting… I’m gonna say the quote exactly because this is… And these quotes were on freaking CNN so it’s even better…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
“Half-dressed man cavorting with a sexually aroused farm animal.”
Casey:
The judge?
Jeff:
The judge.
Casey:
For an animal porn case…
Jeff:
For an animal porn case…
Casey:
Was himself involved in the distribution of animal porn.
Jeff:
Well…
Casey:
That’s gotta be a rare coincidence.
Jeff:
Yes. He didn’t believe this was…
Casey:
He did not feel the need to [inaudible 13:29] himself from the case based on this?
Jeff:
No, he believed that nobody could see this. And he feels bad and they’ve declared a mistrial on Friday.
Casey:
That’s probably a good idea.
Jeff:
So they’re going to retry it again.
Casey:
That’s probably a good idea.
Jeff:
I just thought, like, “Wow, that is an awesome… Just a…”
Casey:
Now, one thing I will say about that…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Is who better to judge…
Jeff:
That’s true.
Casey:
Whether or not someone has gone too far…
Jeff:
Too far than someone who’s always too far…
Casey:
In animal porn than someone who already knows a good deal about that subject, right?
Jeff:
No, who’s already gone too far himself.
Casey:
Yeah, that’s right. If I’m asked to judge an animal porn case, I’m like, “I don’t know. The fact that there’s an animal in it, to me, is pretty freaky.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Now, that puts me actually at a disadvantage…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
In terms of being objective. If I’ve seen people fucking animals my whole life, right, then I’m gonna be able to look at a video and go, “Is this too far?”
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
Did he take it too far? Right?
Jeff:
Or if you’ve actually fucked an animal…
Casey:
I’m not gonna be able to say that.
Jeff:
Yourself, you could say, “That animal is enjoying it.”
Casey:
Right. “I can tell…”
Jeff:
“He’s not trying to get away.”
Casey:
That’s right.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
This is what it’s actually right. It’s portraying it… Or more importantly, First Amendment-wise… Right? Is this an accurate depiction… Is this providing information?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“This is what it’s like to fuck an animal.” Or are they glorifying it or are they trying to demean the animal? Like, what is happening in this film.
Jeff:
If we were… Right.
Casey:
I’m not qualified to say this, okay?
Jeff:
I couldn’t even tell you if it was gay or straight bestiality.
Casey:
That’s a good point.
Jeff:
I can’t tell whether that pig’s male or not.
Casey:
Who knows what the fuck hole it’s going into.
Jeff:
I don’t know.
Casey:
I don’t know what’s back there. Half the time, when I see an animal, I’m asking the person next to me, “Is that a boy or girl?” Right. Yeah. And so, how could I possibly know?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And I imagine most judges, who don’t have animal porn on their websites, would ask the same fucking question.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Like, I don’t know what… What is this? What [ are the implications? ]
Jeff:
“Can you put a pink and a blue scarf on that llama…”
Casey:
Yeah, exactly…
Jeff:
“Because I can’t tell.”
Casey:
I don’t know. Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
Anyway, I just thought that was… That was my favorite…
Casey:
So have we had a grave miscarriage of justice that the judge, who is probably the most qualified judge in all of the United States to hear this case had to be recused from the case.
Jeff:
Maybe… Well, I would say this. Maybe or maybe. It’s just not a coincidence. Like maybe every…
Casey:
What?
Jeff:
Maybe every judge has animal porn.
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
No, I’m just…
Casey:
Nope. Nope, that’s not true.
Jeff:
No, I’m just saying…
Casey:
It’s not. No.
Jeff:
Like, part of becoming a lawyer…
Casey:
That’s not true. It’s not.
Jeff:
Is like… No.
Casey:
Nope, sorry.
Jeff:
No, it’s the exact same thing. No, wait, wait, wait.
Casey:
That’s not what happened. That’s not what happened.
Jeff:
I’m gonna tell you what happens.
Casey:
Nope.
Jeff:
This is like those things where you’re like… You read these kind of pop science things where they’re like, “1 in 4 men were molested by their priest, as a boy.”
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
And you’re like, “Well, I know 12 people. So which one of you…”
Casey:
Yeah. But it’d just be you know 3 people who’ve been molested.
Jeff:
Yeah. Oops. I just broke my toy that you gave me.
Casey:
That’s the point. That was the whole…
Jeff:
That looks very…
Casey:
I’m expecting it… Wow, that is very [inaudible 16:35] That’s like a horse…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Prepuce right there. Yeah. Wow.
Jeff:
I’m gonna have to…
Casey:
Actually, no, wait. Horses don’t have prepuces. Only dogs, right?
Jeff:
I don’t know.
Casey:
Who has the prepuce?
Jeff:
I don’t know what a prepuce… Stop it.
Casey:
Horse penis is just hanging out there. See the judge…
Jeff:
Pork & pumpkin.
Casey:
We need that judge…
Jeff:
Pork & pumpkins.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Bring it on back.
Casey:
I’ll just say dogs have essentially a… What’s the word I’m looking for. A casing for the penis. So the penis is not out, normally, right?
Jeff:
Stop.
Casey:
It retracts back in to this prepuce, okay? And I don’t think a horse does. So I don’t know why I said that. I don’t know anything about horses. So maybe they do. Maybe they don’t.
Jeff:
Well, you can’t rule in this thing.
Casey:
But the point is Jeff has a little toy here that I gave him that’s an extending back scratcher. And he broke the hand, the scratching apparatus, off. So now, it just looks like a retractable penis, basically.
Jeff:
As I was pointing at retracted…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I was, like, “I know exactly…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That’s the lipstick retraction.
Casey:
Anyway…
Jeff:
Anyway…
Casey:
Moving on…
Jeff:
Moving on… You know, so I was gonna say something else.
Casey:
Okay, that’s fabulous.
Jeff:
So the whole animal fucking thing, I think we’re almost ready for a revolution.
Casey:
A revolution?
Jeff:
Or evolution?
Casey:
What does that mean?
Jeff:
It means that Sony is making all these little robot pets, like the robo-dogs… You know, they’ve already got those real sex dolls…
Casey:
Oh, God. No.
Jeff:
It is… We are 2 years from the little robo [ sheet ].
Casey:
No. please let us not be that.
Jeff:
Hey, you know what else I’m gonna say? I’m gonna have a rant about this, actually, is you know those fucking people that will, like… They’re usually, like, psychologists or something that are speaking on a technological change in society.
Casey:
Yes. Okay.
Jeff:
And they’re speaking… One of the things I read about recently is they were talking about these robo pets…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And the difference and what this is gonna change…
Casey:
Okay. Like fucking Ray Kurzweil or some other…
Jeff:
Yeah, kind of like those dudes that you’re like…
Casey:
Just some douche?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
You’re writing… You work for Newsweek. You need to have somebody to quote.
Casey:
Right, so they call up some douche.
Jeff:
And they call up some douche that has written a paper about this.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Anyway, he referred to the things as robo pets versus bio pets. And the bio pets that we have…
Casey:
Wow, bio pets are what we have now? Like a dog is a bio pet?
Jeff:
I’m like, “We don’t need a fucking name for the thing that we are…”
Casey:
It’s just a pet, yeah.
Jeff:
“Stop naming shit we already have, you cunt. It’s a fucking pet.” You don’t need to call it a bio pet.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I mean, they do this with everything.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I am a vegetarian and then they need to come up…
Casey:
My carbon-based dog…
Jeff:
Cunts.
Casey:
I was walking my carbon-based dog around the…
Jeff:
Just stop.
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
It’s the same thing when you’re like… You have the psychologists that are like, “Yeah, the people are getting addicted to the internet. And I call this the Jobs Syndrome or something.” And you’re like, “You don’t need to come up with a fucking name for that. It’s obsessive behavior. You don’t need to come up with a new one to get your name in some article.” It’s like, “Oh, yes. I call this the iPod Thumb because people play with their iPods…” No. It’s just the same repetitive stress injury we’ve had for 50 years. You don’t need to name it a new thing, you cunt. Stop.
Casey:
But he wants to be the guy… He wants to be introduced on the talk show…
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
As the nation’s foremost iPod thumb expert, right?
Jeff:
No, like, “I discovered this malady.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You didn’t discover it…
Casey:
“Actually, back in ‘98, when I first talking about iPod thumb…”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“It was a relatively little-known phenomenon.”
Jeff:
Cunts.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s like, as soon as you make up a new name for something…
Casey:
Yeah. Congratulations…
Jeff:
You’re a cunt.
Casey:
You’re a douche.
Jeff:
Yeah. Exactly.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You have now…
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
Anyway, wow…
Casey:
I agree.
Jeff:
That’s all I have to say on that subject. I kind of got… I’m kind of sweaty. I got kind of worked up on that.
Casey:
I have to… I don’t know if you… I have to pick a fight with you, by the way. I don’t know if you want me to do it now or you want me to wait ‘til later in the podcast.
Jeff:
What’s the fight about?
Casey:
There is an unresolved issue between the two of us.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
And it began two days or three days ago, I think. I can’t remember when.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
But basically, it sort of underscored (to me, right) why there will never be peace in the world.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, why world peace…
Jeff:
Oh, I remember…
Casey:
There are a number of reasons why world peace does not occur, right?
Jeff:
Yeah. I’ve actually thought about this a fair amount.
Casey:
Good. Because that way, you won’t just be a punching bag. You’ll be sort of someone who has a lot to say about their poorly-conceived opinion.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Anyway, I’ll give the listeners a little background. A little bit of background here for you. Jeff has concluded that having the president authorize an assassination of a foreign dignitary or leader is an okay thing for the president to be deciding to do. That’s a decision that the president should be making and it’s okay for them to decide (for example, in the affirmative) that we should, based on the data….
Jeff:
Wait.
Casey:
Hold on. I’m not done. You can talk in a second. No.
Jeff:
Wait. I want to clarify what I’m saying.
Casey:
You can clarify it after I’m done explaining the more important part of this.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Now, the way that Jeff formed this opinion was incredibly well-researched. He watched a fucking episode of “The West Wing”…
Jeff:
No, it had nothing to do with it…
Casey:
Where the president decided… Martin Sheen decided to kill somebody and Jeff was like, “You know what, hmmm… Good. That’s a good thing, right?”
Jeff:
No. In fact, if you watch that show…
Casey:
Which I am not going to. Thank you.
Jeff:
Wait. But if you did…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
He decides it was a mistake later on.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So if anything… My opinion is…
Casey:
So basically… No, wait. Just before you clarify the opinion… So what you’re saying to me is that the reason why we might consider it a bad idea is because the same show also had an episode where he concluded it was a bad idea?
Jeff:
No. You think… No, no, no…
Casey:
Great. Well, listen, I hope that…
Jeff:
I’m trying to show…
Casey:
Okay. Continue.
Jeff:
I’m trying to show you that has nothing to do with that.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
My opinion is this. You have a choice, as a leader, to go to war or not go to war.
Casey:
No, you don’t. The president can’t do that.
Jeff:
Okay. Let’s be realistic in the sense of that’s what happens, right? Now, yes, the Congress is supposed to decide…
Casey:
That’s what happened one time…
Jeff:
No, it’s…
Casey:
The rest of the time, the Congress actually declared it.
Jeff:
No. Not since… The Korean War, the Vietnam War, both wars in the Middle East, none of them were declared by Congress. None of them were official acts of war.
Casey:
Okay. You do have a point there.
Jeff:
Right. They have not done that since World War II.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Since then, it’s been the president’s call.
Casey:
Right. Yeah, that’s a good point.
Jeff:
Commander in fucking chief.
Casey:
Yeah. That’s not supposed to happen…
Jeff:
Right, right… It’s not supposed to happen but it does.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I’m saying, as the person who directs the CIA (which is our covert agency)…
Casey:
That’s correct.
Jeff:
Who is the most fucked up agency in the world…
Casey:
That’s right…
Jeff:
It doesn’t technically exist anymore, does it? It’s Department…
Casey:
The CIA?
Jeff:
It’s all part of the Department of Homeland Security. I don’t think there is technically a CIA anymore.
Casey:
I don’t know what the fuck they do… I mean, I think they still… It’s still called the CIA, thought.
Jeff:
Right. Well, and this is kind of…
Casey:
It’s under a director who directs both that and other things but I think it’s still called the CIA.
Jeff:
I don’t know if there’s a Central Intelligence Agency anymore.
Casey:
Really?
Jeff:
I think it’s been folded into the Department of Homeland Security.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
I…
Casey:
I have no idea.
Jeff:
Well, the end of that book…
Casey:
“Legacy of Ashes”?
Jeff:
“Legacy of Ashes”. He talks about the fact that it doesn’t really exist anymore but…
Casey:
Well, okay. But nor really. At the end of that book, he’s just saying that it’s no longer considered an import--… Like, that position, that [ reporter ], that position that’s reporting to the president, they moved his location in the Cabinet to a much less… It’s deprecated.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But the CIA still exists. It’s just that the channel to the president is no longer…
Jeff:
I think the people exist. I don’t think they’re called the CIA anymore.
Casey:
Alright. Well, we can clarify that but I think they are.
Jeff:
Yeah. Maybe. Anyway, you get information that’s going to be covert, that you can’t make public, right, for various security reasons or whatever.
Casey:
Uh-huh…
Jeff:
Maybe it’s gonna be used to prevent, you know, security in the future or whatever…
Casey:
Uh-huh…
Jeff:
If you have a decision to make where you can say, “I am going to go into a country because…” I don’t know, let’s say they’re supporting terrorism and you can tie them very well to it… And you have the decision to go in and kill 100,000 Iraqis…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And 5,000 troops or whatever… Or you can order an assassination… I think that that decision is… I don’t think… I was not trying to argue that they should do it or you shouldn’t do it. But I think that’s a decision that you have to make on the data in front of you, whether you’re going to do that or not.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So…
Casey:
So let’s talk about that for a second, because that’s retarded.
Jeff:
I know you…
Casey:
So…
Jeff:
Yes. I know you don’t like it.
Casey:
We’ll start with the reason [ why retarded ]… Now first of all, there’s 2 aspects of this.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Okay? There’s the decision that you laid out…
Jeff:
Well, let me just… Let me say one more thing before you get rolling.
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
’Cos you’re gonna roll a while, I think…
Casey:
Yeah. There’s gonna be a lot. I have a lot to say about this.
Jeff:
Okay. So here’s what…
Casey:
It’s actually something I care about.
Jeff:
Yes. I would say that my… I would say that whether you do it or not, I think that what the difference between you and me mostly is the fact that I see that as a dilemma of what to do or what not to do… Whether you do it or not…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And I would say that probably, 99 times… Almost always, you wouldn’t.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
In all cases, I think that’s a dilemma and you don’t. You’re just like…
Casey:
Yeah. That’s right. I don’t I think that’s a dilemma.
Jeff:
That’s the difference, between I think you and I is I think it’s actually a dilemma.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And one last thing, just to put this in real terms, as well…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is everyone’s like, “Hey, Bush, just does whatever he wants, whatever…”
Casey:
Yes, that’s true.
Jeff:
And people are like, “Oh, hey, Al Gore is green,” whatever…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
When Clinton found out that we had some news about…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Where Bin Laden was… And we’re gonna go lob bombs into Aghanistan…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The White House Council said, “We can’t do this. It’s illegal. We shouldn’t do this.” And Clinton said, “Yeah, I don’t think we should.” And it was Al Gore that said, “Look, of course it’s illegal. It’s covert information. Take the fucker out.”
Casey:
Right. “Let’s do it.” Yeah.
Jeff:
I think his expression was, “Take the dude out.”
Casey:
Yeah. They fired, like, 50 million Dollars worth of cruise missiles…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And hit some training camp for a bunch or retards…
Jeff:
Right. Forget about that. I’m just saying that that’s a good example of people…
Casey:
Yes, I know…
Jeff:
Who are just like, “Oh green… Al Gore…” In that case, he acted exactly like Bush did.
Casey:
That’s right.
Jeff:
And so…
Casey:
Which is interesting information for the [ counterfactual ] that we were talking about in the last podcast…
Jeff:
Totally…
Casey:
About Gore being a double douche…
Jeff:
Right. No, I’m not saying… I’m just saying that, like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It is interesting. And in fact, I think if you went back and looked, this is not a liberal versus conservative thing in anything…
Casey:
No, it’s absolutely not.
Jeff:
If anything liberals…
Casey:
Bobby Kennedy…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Bobby Kennedy being the classic example of…
Jeff:
Of someone that, like…
Casey:
It would be hard to find someone in the Bush administration who outdoes Bobby Kennedy…
Jeff:
In terms of…
Casey:
On the “let’s fucking kill bugs, strangle, overthrow, whatever the fuck you want”…
Jeff:
Right. Or just fuck with other countries.
Casey:
Good luck.
Jeff:
Right. Exactly.
Casey:
Good luck with finding another…
Jeff:
So it’s not a liberal or conservative thing…
Casey:
No, it is absolutely not.
Jeff:
So my only argument… I think the difference between us… And this is not what I’d like to discuss is not whether I’d do it or not…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Because that’s like…
Casey:
Oh, yeah…
Jeff:
Is whether it’s a dilemma or not…
Casey:
Whether the decision should exist. Okay. There’s two things I was gonna…
Jeff:
Or not… [ I’d even say ]… The decision doesn’t exist ‘cos it’s illegal, right? It’s illegal to do it. But I’m saying I want to… Forget illegal or not because, like, hey, whatever…
Casey:
Okay. Yeah. Sure.
Jeff:
I want to… What’s more interesting to me to argue is, “As the president, is that a dilemma?” And it is not for you.
Casey:
Yes. Or rather, “should the president have the ability to make such a decision” is actually more the thing. “Should the president even be able to have that choice or should they not” is kind of the more interesting discussion to me, right.
Jeff:
Well, that’s not an interesting discussion to me because they do… They effectively do and they use it and there’s really nothing we can do about it, right? That happens…
Casey:
Well, okay. In an alternate universe, right… In an alternate universe where that was a core fundamental operating procedure that no one doubted where you just couldn’t do that and the guy was impeached immediately… Let’s say that our country considered killing someone as bad as fucking them (which we don’t, right)… ‘Cos right now, if you fuck an intern, you get impeached, okay. You kill a foreign leader, no big deal unless it’s someone we like, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So let’s assume we’re in that alternate universe, right, with that adversarial Congress, you can imagine a situation where as soon as someone finds out the president did that, they’re impeached, right? And maybe what you’re saying is that’s not a good thing. We shouldn’t give the president the leeway to do this. And what I’m saying is absolutely not. That would be the right thing to do is impeach that fucker as soon as you can, right?
Jeff:
My argument would be different… Slightly different than that…
Casey:
So what is your argument?
Jeff:
My argument would be…
Casey:
I’m having trouble even knowing what your argument is…
Jeff:
Right. Let’s say we’re in this alternate universe…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And you impeach me.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And that’s legal and that’s what you do.
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
What I’m saying is as the president, as the person that has to make the decision…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Even knowing I would be impeached…
Casey:
You’d still think about it?
Jeff:
I think it’s… Not whether I think about yes or no. Just…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Being able to sleep at night when I know that I had concrete information that someone was supporting terrorism, that’s what…
Casey:
Okay. I understand.
Jeff:
That is a dilemma and a hard decision to make and I don’t think that is for you.
Casey:
Ignore all the consequences, societally, of the act. If you’re in that person’s shoes and you have the data, do you automatically say no or do you consider it?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
What you’re saying is, “consider it”, that’s what you’re saying?
Jeff:
I say you have to.
Casey:
Consider it. Okay.
Jeff:
That’s what I’m saying is, like, it’s a scary for me to say… Trading one life for thousands of lives is…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And I know it’s… Even, like, forget rules or right… Even morally, it’s ambiguous to me, necessarily. I just think it’s not an automatic yes or no.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
It’s hard for me to make that decision, yes or no…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
Because there’s scary decisions…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Where you’re trading one set of lives for the other’s…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And on one hand, you have ideals and lives (a number of lives)…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
One, you have compromise and maybe less lives. And I don’t necessarily know automatically which one I’d pick.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
That’s the thing that scares me.
Casey:
I see. Yes. Now I will go ahead and tell you why that’s retarded.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Now that I know what you are thinking about it, I will tell you why that’s a terrible, terrible idea.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And if I may, I would like to equate this to something that I think it’s easily equated to because we can talk about them… I think the reasoning against both of them is the same.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And they’re both transient. They’re both the same… They’re both involved with the same thing, even. And that’s torture. Right?
Jeff:
Oh, God. Sorry.
Casey:
The equivalent example is let’s… Another thing… And I’ll argue… What I’m saying is the things I’m about to say will apply to both. So you don’t have to agree that they’re equated. I’m saying that my argument, my thinking of them is exactly the same.
Jeff:
I think torture is very similar, yeah.
Casey:
And I’ll say why. So it’s basically…
Jeff:
Unfortunately, because this puts me on the side of argument I have to…
Casey:
Right. It’s puts you on the… But I’m just pointing it out, right? So if we have somebody who we believe or maybe even know has the information necessary to stop some catastrophic event…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And we try to get the information from them and failed, do we try torturing them? Right? We don’t know if that’s gonna work but it might work, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It could. Do we torture them?
Jeff:
Right. The only…
Casey:
The same basic decision, like, we can take out the terrorist…
Jeff:
Well, but the only difference…
Casey:
Or we can torture for information…
Jeff:
Well, the one difference…
Casey:
They’re both bad acts but maybe they result in something good is what you’re saying, right?
Jeff:
Well, wait. Right. But the only difference between those 2…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is information that you get out of torture is 100% bad. The only thing I’m saying that’s… The reason why the other one is different is you have actual…
Casey:
I’m not talking about speculative torture. I’m talking about, “The dude, we watched him set the bomb. We know he has the code to turn it off.”
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Do we torture him to see if he’ll tell us.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Make sense?
Jeff:
That’s a good… Okay.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
I would accept that example.
Casey:
’Cos we’re not…
Jeff:
There’s a nuclear bomb somewhere in New York…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
It’s gonna go off. Do we torture the guy that set it?
Casey:
Right. The things that I’m about to say do not depend on the outcome.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay? I’m not gonna argue stuff like “he might not tell us”. I’m not gonna argue stuff like “the assassination may go wrong”.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
In my mind, it doesn’t matter what the outcome is.
Jeff:
Okay. Right.
Casey:
The outcome is not important.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
So I don’t need that… I’m willing to just start with the assumption that the person actually has the information…
Jeff:
And is willing to give it to you if you torture him.
Casey:
Yeah. I mean, I don’t know how you get it necessarily but let’s even say…
Jeff:
Let’s say that, yeah…
Casey:
That they would…
Jeff:
Right. It sounds like…
Casey:
Or at least there’s a chance that they would.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay? Which is all we really need because, hey, we don’t give a fuck about this guy at some level, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So we know there’s maybe a 50% chance…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That it’ll work. So you try it, right? I mean, that’s what you’re thinking, right? Or at least you think about it…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We know that if we don’t torture this guy, the building blows up. We torture this guy, there’s some chance that he might tell us.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We’re gonna enter the code. Either it’s wrong or it’s right…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It doesn’t matter, right? So at some level, there you go. The situation is fine. Okay.
Jeff:
But it doesn’t matter to you, anyway. Even if he…
Casey:
Those don’t matter. That doesn’t matter to me.
Jeff:
Let’s say they save all the people. It doesn’t matter?
Casey:
Yeah. It saves all people. Great. Okay. So I’ll tell you my argument against these.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It’s a very realist… It’s a very pragmatic argument.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It’s not theological and it’s not based on human rights or any of that. It’s very simple. And what it basically hinges on is the fact that societies, governments, groups of people in general, okay…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
In situations like this where you’re talking about a decision-making apparatus, okay…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It’s not me, Casey Muratori, random citizen…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Who stumbles upon a terrorist and I have to decide whether I’m going to try to beat something out of him.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
Because quite frankly, I don’t know how to fucking torture someone anyways…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I can pretty much tell that that’s not gonna work.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right? So we’re talking about a government.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
Do we want a government to be able to make the decision to torture someone or assassinate someone?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
The government is making that decision. And it might be a single person in the government. It might be a group of people. I don’t know. But what you’re saying is that potentially, at least somebody in the government should be able to consider this, okay?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Or that they should, as an individual, go, “As the president, I should consider this even if I’m gonna get arrested for it.”
Jeff:
Well, actually…
Casey:
Is what you were saying, right?
Jeff:
Yeah. Except I’m saying one slightly different thing that I think is kind of bringing it is, like… I’m saying that at some point, there becomes someone in the government…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Who through probably illegal means is able to cause something to happen.
Casey:
To happen, should they do it… Should they consider it…
Jeff:
Right, should they… And not…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And I’m trying to keep it on a personal level, not the institutional part…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Because that is the scary part…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
It’s like, once you do that, then all of a sudden, you… I’m trying to say the part that makes it difficult for me is the personal decision is…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Like…
Casey:
So… I’m just clarifying…
Jeff:
Even if you are the Casey Muratori and you’re in the room and you know this and you’re not the government, do you just start wailing on the gay to tell you whether… What the combination for the bomb is?
Casey:
See, that is not so troubling to me. If I’m just a citizen who decides to beat the shit out of somebody to try and do something, that’s not the same thing to me. So we have to clarify which one we’re talking about first.
Jeff:
Well, my…
Casey:
Are we talking about the president or are you talking about a citizen?
Jeff:
I’m talking about… I don’t think… I wasn’t thinking in terms of institutional versus not. I was trying to say that the difficult part for me, the part where you have to make a personal decision to break the law or not didn’t matter if I was a citizen or the president except maybe that you don’t have to get your hands personally dirty, right, which is certainly difference-making, you know, it’s one of the reasons why guns are bad, right?
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
Because you can do this violence at a distance… But I was trying to get a… What I was trying to say is that the thing that I was trying to get across wasn’t necessarily like even do it or not do it. It was… That would be a hard decision.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
If I was in that… Whether I was Casey Muratori in the room or whether I was the president…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
If I had the ability to effect that outcome…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I think I would consider breaking the law to save more lives.
Casey:
So let me say, then, I’m not willing to argue… I haven’t really thought about it too much. I’m not willing to argue about what Jeff Roberts, American citizen randomly on the scene, should or should not consider.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I’m not prepared to even talk about that because I really don’t even know what that situation…
Jeff:
Let’s say that’s the John McClane route.
Casey:
Who’s John McClane?
Jeff:
You know, “Die Hard”…
Casey:
Oh…
Jeff:
Or, what’s the dude…
Casey:
I don’t know…
Jeff:
I’ve never seen “24” but that’s the… Jack… The one that the [inaudible 38:09]
Casey:
I’m talking about the president because that’s what we’re talking about. Or someone in the government, someone in a position of power in the government somewhere…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Okay? That is the only one that I’m interested in talking about. So do you still want to talk about that? Because I’m saying that if you’re the president, the answer is no. Period. You shouldn’t have to think about it. The answer is no. I’m saying “if you’re the president”.
Jeff:
I’m saying… Maybe what you’re saying…
Casey:
So if you think the president…
Jeff:
What you’re saying maybe is that part of being electable as the president is the ability to not think of yourself as an individual citizen anymore…
Casey:
No. Nope…
Jeff:
And not make that decision…
Casey:
That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that…
Jeff:
Well, is the president able to go in the room himself and beat that guy up, too?
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
So what makes it different for the person versus… Like, obviously, institutional… Like, if I go to jail as Jeff Roberts in the room beating him up… But if I am President Jeff Roberts, I also go to jail…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
What’s the difference between the two?
Casey:
The difference is that as president, you are acting as a member of the government. And I’ll go ahead and argue that, if you want and then you can hear why. I think it makes sense why there’s a difference there between you’re some random dude and you decide, “Ah, it’s worth it for me to go to jail because I want to beat this guy up.” That’s a very different thing to say. And I’ll explain why.
Jeff:
Then you are saying that, like…
Casey:
I’m saying the president… It’s [ definitely gonna ] have to be someone in government or I’m not so angry about it.
Jeff:
I wasn’t even thinking about person in government. I was thinking about the personal decision I make as not even a president but as a human being or, like… Like, I think I’m a fairly idealistic person and there are some things I just won’t do…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And in a way that is somewhat irrational on certain things, but that’s one of those things that I feel like my ideals might be compromised if I was put in the position of “you can beat this guy up and keep the building from blowing up”. And I don’t think I can turn that off if I was president or not.
Casey:
So here’s… I guess I’ll go ahead and argue against both, then, because at the end of the day, I guess I’d have to go home and think about it some more. But I suspect, just my gut reaction is that my reasoning actually applies to both, now that I think about it more. It’s just I didn’t have a context for thinking about it in the other case so I have to really carefully consider it before I’m willing to say that…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But I suspect that the things I’m about to say about the government version actually also apply to the private version. I just haven’t thought about it that way because that never comes up.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That situation doesn’t really exist very often.
Jeff:
It exists in the movies all the time.
Casey:
Yeah, exactly, in the movies…
Jeff:
But never in the thing…
Casey:
In real life, very rarely are people are put in that position.
Jeff:
I think the personal part of “in a movie” is what most people… Is the reason why people, like… You know, you can appeal to people as a conservative war hawk kind of guy…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is because it’s like, “Look, you know, of course, we’ve got the war on terror. We have to do something different. We have to fight these guys that are trying to change our way of life.”
Casey:
Right. Okay.
Jeff:
So I think that’s an easy thing for them to push the emotional [ guidance ]…
Casey:
And you know what I just thought of…
Jeff:
But I’m not even saying, like… I’m not trying to say that, like, I would be Jack Bauer all the time. I’m saying it would be a difficult decision for me.
Casey:
Right. Okay.
Jeff:
That’s all.
Casey:
Here’s why it shouldn’t be a difficult decision, then… And I’ll just pretend it applies to everything but I’m gonna have to think about it. Maybe on the next podcast, I’ll talk about whether my consideration led me to agree with myself extending it…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Or whether I’m like, “No, it really is only a government thing.” We’ll see. Anyway… So I’ll talk about it in the government case and then we’ll see if it applies afterwards.
Jeff:
And by the way, I’m gonna say that we went from judge smut case with animals…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
To this discussion…
Casey:
That’s the range… That is the emotional range of the podcast…
Jeff:
That we cover for you, our listeners.
Casey:
We can give you anything, right?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
You want bestiality? We’ve got it.
Jeff:
We’ve got it.
Casey:
You want discussions about the ethics of torture and the results thereof? We’ve got that. And we’ve got them in the same fucking 1-hour spot.
Jeff:
Yeah, exactly.
Casey:
Right? You didn’t even have to listen to two different podcasts.
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
Alright, here’s my reasoning.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Alright. So let’s take this assassination example first. And in this case, we’re probably talking most about the government because oftentimes, [inaudible 42:17]
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But maybe you’re in a situation where you happen to be with a gun in a room with Hitler or something…
Jeff:
Well, actually…
Casey:
Right? Who knows?
Jeff:
Nowadays, it’s probably more likely to be a private citizen and employee of Blackwater. But yes…
Casey:
That’s a good point.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So who knows? Anyway, the underlying assumption that is somewhat ignored in that whole question is that if you were to even have a decision about whether or not to assassinate somebody that presupposes the capability to assassinate that.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Because you don’t need to make a decision about whether or not you should assassinate a person if you don’t have the means to assassinate them.
Jeff:
Okay. Sure.
Casey:
Okay? So it’s pointless to talk about the ethics of choosing assassination versus not assassination…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Without first talking about the ethics of why do you have an apparatus capable of assassinating a foreign dignitary without ever having declared war.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Okay. So let’s start with that.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
My belief is that when you create an apparatus capable of doing something, then you will guarantably do it at least some percentage of the time at the incorrect moment. Okay?
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
You will use it for more purposes than it should have been ethically used if there was ever an ethical time to use it at all.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So ignoring temporarily the question of whether or not you should assassinate somebody, I have never, in any of the history that I’ve ever read, seen an apparatus which surely functions correctly 100% of the time.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
It doesn’t exist.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Made by man…
Jeff:
But we started that argument saying that, like…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I have… You saw the dude set the bomb…
Casey:
That’s right. Yes we did.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And that’s why I’m not talking about the decision. I’m talking about the things that have to be in place for the decision to have occurred.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And regardless of what we say about the instantaneous question that you are asking, even if we know that this particular instance the answer shoud be “yes, kill him”…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We know what the outcome is magically. We have a crystal ball.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
What I’m arguing is that you know that you’ve already been fucked because you have the ability to ask the question.
Jeff:
Okay. Well, but…
Casey:
So my argument is actually founded on the principle that creating an apparatus to do something, the long-term effects of creating that apparatus have always (historically) provably been bad…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
When they are put in the hands of a small number of people able to decide them.
Jeff:
Yes. I agree with that.
Casey:
Which is why I believe that if you are a person, a single person, given the opportunity to decide yes or no to do thing, your answer should not only be automatically no. It should be no and think why do I have this decision? Because I shouldn’t. It should not have got--… Something is wrong with the setup of my society such that this question ever got asked. Period.
Jeff:
Well, sure. But I think that that question exists for way more people than you maybe think that it does, right? I’m not even talking… I mean, Bill Gates, really, if he wanted to…
Casey:
Yeah…
Jeff:
Could kill is tomorrow and get away with it, right?
Casey:
What do you mean?
Jeff:
Well, he could.
Casey:
How could Bill Gates kill us tomorrow?
Jeff:
He could give… You know, “Hey, you want 100 million Dollars for your family? Go kill this guy.”
Casey:
“Go shoot everyone.”
Jeff:
“Just go kill this guy.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
He’s here. They do a podcast every Saturday.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, I think that you think that maybe that that apparatus isn’t all around us. And as soon as you have anything where there’s an unequal distribution of money, power, good looks…
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
And so, that’s everywhere around us.
Casey:
Oh, sure.
Jeff:
So, I think that…
Casey:
But that doesn’t change the argument of what you should… Like…
Jeff:
No, what I’m saying…
Casey:
Bill Gates, if he had the decision, “should he kill you tomorrow”, his answer should be no. Immediately. He shouldn’t have to think about it. It should be no is what I’m arguing. It should always be no.
Jeff:
But you’re saying that that apparatus…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is… Him making a yes or no decision changes that apparatus… I’m saying that apparatus is just waiting for the right Bill Gates’ heir to have the wrong number of in-breeding genes in him and, you know, they’ll eventually be the Rockefeller that decides to try… And it’s true, right? Like, it’s full of Page 6 items of some random dude…
Casey:
Yeah, yeah…
Jeff:
Or some douche that is the second heir of this whatever chokes a prostitute, right?
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
So like, I’m just saying that…
Casey:
But I don’t see how that changes the argument in any way. I’m just saying that ethically, we’re talking about should you decide yes or no to that question. And what I’m saying is the answer is always no because ethically, the fact that you had the decision was already ethically bad. You’ve already started out bad without the answer even considered.
Jeff:
But I’m saying that decision exists whether or not that apparatus is there and whether that apparatus is bad or not, I agree that it’s bad that we have those things…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I’m not sure how you have a society that works in a way where those are impossible, like that are logical possibilities…
Casey:
So your argument is “hey, we have the apparatus so let’s use it” is basically what you’re saying?
Jeff:
No, I’m saying that in the same way that a guy and his wife gets hurt or raped or something and you know who did it… I think it would be a difficult decision not to seek revenge, for me. And that’s a hard thing.
Casey:
But again, that’s not… I mean, there might be some…
Jeff:
Because I do have the means to try to hurt somebody…
Casey:
Yeah, yeah. But…
Jeff:
And I’m saying that’s like… Whether or not I have the means…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Doesn’t make it any easier or more automatic, I guess. The fact that…
Casey:
It’s still an ethically terrible decision to say yes to. But ignoring that…
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
What I’m trying to get across here again is the fact that… And I guess, now that I think about it, yeah, it totally does apply, ethically…
Jeff:
It should, yeah.
Casey:
To that… It totally does. I just never thought of it this way. Yes.
Jeff:
Think about…
Casey:
You should not have the capability to kill somebody. It’s true. What I’m saying is actually true. The apparatus that is there to kill someone, if we could get rid of it tomorrow, plus. Okay?
Jeff:
I agree with that. Sure.
Casey:
So the decision shouldn’t enter your mind.
Jeff:
No. What I’m saying…
Casey:
The answer is no.
Jeff:
No, but see…
Casey:
The answer is no.
Jeff:
See, just because you have… I’m saying no. In fact, I think that… I’d have to think about this a little bit more but I’m gonna throw out a crazy statement here.
Casey:
Yeah. Alright.
Jeff:
That says that the fact that we do have decisions like that where the fact that we have the ability to do something that’s immoral doesn’t necessarily mean that being conflicted about being given that chance is necessarily immoral. And I probably think it would also make… And this is where it gets speculative…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like on earth very different. If I have to think about what it means to the fact of… Where we’re not… There is no apparatus for us to ever make an immoral decision is different than not making or being conflicted about not making an immoral decision.
Casey:
Well, there’s a little bit of a difficult thing to say here because moral is potentially the wrong word to use for it, right?
Jeff:
Yeah, it is. That’s a terrible word.
Casey:
Because what I’m basically saying is that killing someone is not acceptable, right?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Which is different from saying it’s a moral, like… Maybe depending on your societal values, like, horse porn is immoral, right?
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
And I’m not so…
Jeff:
I agree. That’s a bad idea.
Casey:
So it’s hard to say… I use term so I’m at fault here because that’s what I said. But what I mean is to say that assassination and torture were things that I don’t consider acceptable, ever…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay…
Jeff:
And I can’t…
Casey:
And I was arguing for why I think people should consider them unacceptable ever even if we can find a situation in which it does seem like they lead to a net positive, okay?
Jeff:
I think what you’re constructing is you’re constructing a thing that’s not…
Casey:
’Cos I was trying to make a pragmatic argument, not an idealistic one. The idealistic one is you shouldn’t fucking kill people.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s pretty goddamn obvious.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Although not to you. But…
Jeff:
I think…
Casey:
That said…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right? The pragmatic argument there that I was trying to make was that even if you believe that killing people is good because maybe you can kill one person and save a hundred…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay, if you’re saying that’s a good bargain and I’m in the business of making these kinds of bargains… Even if you say that, what I’m saying is that the chicken comes home to roost. So you can’t make that decision.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
The apparatus will end up undoing the thing you’ve done times a thousand because the apparatus is more powerful than you.
Jeff:
Possibly. Yes. I don’t even disagree with that. And I also would say this that even if the apparatus doesn’t fuck you…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The principle of unintended consequences…
Casey:
May well fuck you, too.
Jeff:
Probably will anyway.
Casey:
Yes. Certainly in our country, that’s been the case.
Jeff:
Yeah. I’m just saying that it’s still, to me, not cut and dry. I can’t make that decision without injecting emotion into it…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Where I’d have to say, “You know what, if we had known…” I don’t know. You know… You could start a million things but that’s all making it personal and emotional…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But my point is really, like, I think as a human being, I can’t completely force myself from those emotions.
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
But yeah. Yeah, that’s…
Casey:
I can and I will.
Jeff:
Yeah. I don’t think I automatically would do that. In fact… I mean, I know in my past, I have reacted emotionally and violently to things that I’ve seen that probably betray the fact that I would do that. Like, if I saw… I don’t know. I mean, I have done things with emotional decisions that I…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Even though they were emotional…
Casey:
Well, everyone has, right?
Jeff:
And violent things…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I still kind of think they were the right thing without being able to justify it in argument.
Casey:
Right. Well… And again, I’m not saying…
Jeff:
Which is weird…
Casey:
Like, I absolutely would make bad decisions due to my current emotional state, right? But what I’m saying more is, in a presidential capacity, right…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s actually helpful, at least in my mind, because I know that I would just always say no to that. It would be one of those things like [ tue-nut ] day where it’s like, “No, you just don’t eat candy on any day other than Tuesday.” So it’s not like I have to think about it. It saves me from making the incorrect decision by the fact that I’d already pre-decided.
Jeff:
Yeah. And I’m almost…
Casey:
And sometimes, you need those things.
Jeff:
Never… And I never pretty much set those rules, ever, for myself, just because I feel they’re limiting.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And I know…
Casey:
Right. You want the full gamut of possibilities.
Jeff:
I want the possibilities and I’m willing to…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I’m willing to take the risk of being wrong on those.
Casey:
See, I have…
Jeff:
Now, here… One of the interesting things…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
On the whole “West Wing” thing part of this is in “West Wing”, the president’s daughter is kidnapped. A couple… In the same season, the vice president is forced to resign due to a sex scandal. So there’s no vice president. They have not found the vice president they want. They’re interviewing people. In the process of while they’re doing this, because of the assassination of that that president authorized, his daughter is kidnapped by people, the bad people that are going to make him pay for that decision. The president removes himself from power even though, by doing so, he puts the White House in the hands of the Republican who is the leader of the opposite party because he’s the House Majority Leader. So even though he’s giving up complete control of his administration for this period of this time while he’s… So in your case, although he made the wrong decision initially…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
He removed himself from being able to make decisions badly after the case…
Casey:
So he learned something, maybe…
Jeff:
Maybe he learned… So anyway…
Casey:
Well, yeah, I’ve always…
Jeff:
By the way…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That was John Goodman as the guy that plays the Republican leader of the House…
Casey:
Nice.
Jeff:
It was fucking awesome.
Casey:
I’m sure he was. He’s very good.
Jeff:
He’s always awesome…
Casey:
He’s always…
Jeff:
But he was particularly good in that show.
Casey:
Well, yeah. As far as I’m concerned, I think anyone who reads even just the history of this country even a little bit can see kind of unequivocally… Like, I don’t… I hope people would not disagree with my assessment that the apparatus you build always goes wrong.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
We’ve never had one go right, pretty much.
Jeff:
I don’t disagree with that. And yeah…
Casey:
So the disagreement really can only go [inaudible 55:26] that I would heap… As far as I’m concerned, that’s enough to damn the process right there.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But I would heap a further condemnation on it if it were necessary which is that I feel like it’s an incredibly short-sighted way to consider both the way the world works and the stability of how the world finds its steady state, if you will, right? Which is a little bit more of an abstract thing to say…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Than the apparatus bit, which is a little more of, like, “Let’s just look at historical records and see what happened,” right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But in general, I think when you’re making decisions, and I don’t think we have any leaders who do this but if you were to try and make decisions well…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Which is not something our government’s set up to do, I think you have to consider how is the world going to find its steady state eventually? And what’s that steady state going to look like, right? And what are the kinds of systems that we want to have occurring in order to do that, right? And if you are someone who believes that the things that you do to get to the steady state somehow disappear when this steady state arrives, I think you are very na_ve.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So if you think that the world can drive itself towards a beautiful, peaceful coexistence through the use of lots of assassinations and war, okay, you’re probably wrong. And that’s one of the reasons why I think the original people who, you know, sort of constructed the way that our system worked, decided to make it so that Congress was supposed to deliberate…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Over going to war was specifically because they felt that a steady system… It should be a big deal to go to war.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
You should have to think about it and talk about it for a long time and there has to be a lot of agreement, right? And the reason for that is because I can envision in my head a world where, in general, peace is maintained when all countries in the world have to take a long time to decide to get into conflict with each other. I can imagine that being a pretty peaceful place, right? And there might be war sometimes. But it won’t be very often, right? The world in which someone can decide to assassinate a leader, regardless of how infrequent, is not that world.
Jeff:
See, my…
Casey:
In my mind…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s not that world. Period.
Jeff:
I agree with everything you say except the fact that I don’t think that there is such thing as a steady state for the world when it’s so easy to kill somebody in the modern age. Like, it’s just fucking simple. It’s just not hard. And as long as that is…
Casey:
Well, no, shit it’s…
Jeff:
Going to be a violent…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It doesn’t matter what impediments you put on that. There’s going to be someone that you can go to at Blackwater. They probably have a…
Casey:
Yeah, number…
Jeff:
1-800-ASSASSINATE…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That is probably far less expensive to do it than the government…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And no matter what, that’s… I think the steady state is the one of war and conflict. And that’s what we’re gonna have forever.
Casey:
Well…
Jeff:
I don’t think…
Casey:
Hold on a second…
Jeff:
I don’t think we ever turn into Star Fleet…
Casey:
Back it up. Back it up a second.
Jeff:
I think we’re fighting right up to the point….
Casey:
Back it up for a second.
Jeff:
Where we both have space ships.
Casey:
Back it up a second, right. I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’re saying, right. What I’m saying is…
Jeff:
I have a solution, by the way.
Casey:
Well, wait a second.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Let me just say one thing about that. So let’s imagine that there are 2 potential steady states, okay — One of war and one of peace, okay?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I’m of the opinion that if you actually look at history, we are actually getting more peaceful, which is a little ironic, right? It’s like, if you look at the Stone Age, right, I’d just bash your head open with a rock and take the fucking tiger meat that you have. I’d just do that, right?
Jeff:
Ah, jeez. I sure don’t know.
Casey:
So it seems to me, actually, to be honest with you, that although our powers of destruction have grown, I don’t necessarily know that the degrees of violence that the average person experiences day to day has actually increased. Now… But let’s disregard that. That’s not [inaudible 59:33] to what I’m about to say so who cares. Maybe that’s bullshit. We’d have to actually compute it. Who knows, right?
Jeff:
I’d have to think about that.
Casey:
Here’s what I’m saying, right. I believe that it’s worth trying to get to a steady state of peace. It probably will take many thousands of years, maybe tens of thousands of years, maybe, like, the world will be destroyed through other non… It has nothing to do with war, just our own pollution or whatever maybe long before it gets there, okay. But I still think of ethical decisions in terms of maybe someday getting there, right? If you actually believe that there isn’t a steady state of peace and you believe that the steady state is only war, then what I would say is you need to do a lot more work, okay. Decisions right now, if you look at them as to how are decisions getting made for the steady state of peace, not good. But how are decisions getting made for the steady state of war? Atrocious. We have so much military power that we don’t… We’re afraid to even say that we occupy Iraq, right?
Jeff:
True.
Casey:
Steady state of war, we should have gone in there and be like, “All your oil belongs to us. We’re gonna kill all of you if you don’t just fucking pump it out of the ground and shut up. Otherwise, we’ll just kill everyone.” Right? We’re just gonna nuke the thing for war a bit and then we’re gonna come in and suck out the oil in hazmat suits. That’s what we’re gonna do, right? That’s steady state of war.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And I don’t necessarily deny that maybe that’s the only way the human race can exist. Maybe that’s who we are. But if we are, you have a lot more to complain about than this…
Jeff:
Wait, wait…
Casey:
You should be complaining about a lot of shit.
Jeff:
But, no… Wait, wait, wait…
Casey:
Because we are fucking [inaudible 60:59]
Jeff:
What if the steady state is not…
Casey:
It’s minor conflict?
Jeff:
No, no, no. What if the steady state isn’t either one, which is what I’m saying.
Casey:
It’s in the middle?
Jeff:
No. What if the steady state is that point at which you have hard decisions to make all the time. Like, maybe that is…
Casey:
Interesting. That’s an interesting idea.
Jeff:
If you take out the hard decision, if it was just magically not possible to kill people ‘cos we’re all immortal or something…
Casey:
Right. Well, then, sure… Then it’s a little easier but…
Jeff:
But I don’t know. I think that changes a lot of what makes people people. So I don’t know. I think it’s important that we have the choice to kill people or not. And it’s important that we don’t, usually. But I think it’s probably important that we do have that choice.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I don’t know. That’s completely speculative.
Casey:
Well, there’s another speculative thing, right, which is maybe someday society will evolve a way to make apparatuses that function so efficiently that it actually is the better thing, right? Maybe at some point, my argument goes away. It’s like, “No. We actually assassinate the right guy for the right reasons 99.9% of the time.” And at that point, any scientist has to look at it and go, “That’s the right decision,” as sad as it may be, right? Because 0.1% of the fuck-ups, well, that’s okay, right?
Jeff:
Well, they might also have…
Casey:
We’re nowhere near there so it’s an easy decision in my mind.
Jeff:
Right. You might have to have both the time machine and a speculative time machine, right?
Casey:
Yeah. Right.
Jeff:
“Okay. What happens if we assassinate?” “Ooh… Whoops…”
Casey:
Whoops… Yeah.
Jeff:
“No. No, we better not do that.”
Casey:
Yeah. Right. The Global Solver, the Oracle at Delphi.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s just like, “Don’t do that.”
Jeff:
“Are you kidding?”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“Jesus Christ. What are you thinking?”
Casey:
Or, “Yep. Good idea. Pull the trigger.”
Jeff:
That was my solution, actually, which was, like, eliminate all religious differences. And I think you solve, like…
Casey:
Why does that help?
Jeff:
Because it’s the belief in the impossible and the irrational that I think starts 90% of all of our problems. Once you accept the irrational into your mind in this complete way, I get really scared of your decision-making process…
Casey:
I mean, I agree with you. I agree that that’s a terribly bad influence on lots of decision-making…
Jeff:
All decision-making…
Casey:
Yes, that’s true. But…
Jeff:
I’m saying when you talk… Like…
Casey:
I just think even if you weren’t, even if you’re a perfectly rational being, right, the fact is that you can’t guarantee correct operation very well because…
Jeff:
No, I agree…
Casey:
Because imperfect knowledge is the truth.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You know, so…
Jeff:
I think that’s true, as well. I just think that a lot of the decisions that you make are non-decisions, right?
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
They’re like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“No, you manufactured this because you think the person is not the same as you in some core way.”
Casey:
Right. But there’s a difference between having perfect information, like with the Delphi…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And choosing to do something irrational because you believe that, like, a giant deity that you can’t see is controlling… Whatever the fuck Christians believe are idiotic shit, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
If that’s what’s happening, then yes. But the truth is that someone who is totally rational or at least as rational as can be, even if they’re an atheist or whatever who doesn’t believe any hocus pocus, right? You’ll believe they do not have the predictive anyway.
Jeff:
Oh, sure.
Casey:
So they just… So I’m saying that even in a perfectly rational world, the apparatus still fails, you know?
Jeff:
Certainly, since we believe the same thing deity-wise and yet, we would come to completely different decisions here…
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
10% of the time.
Casey:
Yes. Exactly.
Jeff:
Maybe we don’t kill…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
People some percentage of the time but some point of those times…
Casey:
That’s true…
Jeff:
I’m probably gonna say, “Nuke the guy from orbit.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And that’s a difference.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
So, yeah. There still can be…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Interestingly…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
That’s the only reason I’m against the death penalty is because there’s no such thing as perfect information. I don’t believe that we should ever kill somebody accidentally, right?
Casey:
That’s awes--… You’re like, “We should never kill someone by accident unless they’re a foreign official.”
Jeff:
Yeah. Well, no…
Casey:
Because you don’t have perfect information there…
Jeff:
Well, no. I’m trying to say, like… Again, the thing that’s a hard decision for me is this completely manufactured situation where you actually know that he did it, right. But in the sense of…
Casey:
But back it up. Back it up. Now, this is actually even more interesting. What is the difference between ordering an assassination and ordering a death in a death penalty case in terms of the information that you have? There’s no difference there, right? It’s the same. In both cases, you’re not sure.
Jeff:
Well, the big difference is whether you save future people or not. You’re not gonna save anything else by…
Casey:
Right, but I’m just saying in terms of the information, you agree that there’s no difference in the information. You’re only talking about the fact that the reason that we should not do it for death penalty is ‘cos you’re not really saving anybody. So there’s no road to go there, right?
Jeff:
I guess the way I would say it is this. In the decision where we’ve manufactured where I’m making the decision, I’m evaluating the thing…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And I evaluate all information…
Casey:
Jeff Roberts…
Jeff:
Completely rationally and dispassionately…
Casey:
Right. The 500-pound squirrel notwithstanding…
Jeff:
Yes. But everything in the legal system, because there is this large apparatus that you were complaining about…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And also because I give a ton of money to the Innocents Project…
Casey:
Right, right…
Jeff:
And like, 5 out of…
Casey:
Some ridiculous thing, right? Yeah.
Jeff:
20 people… They defend… It’s ridiculous.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
It’s like, 1 out of 5 people that they test…
Casey:
Yeah, it’s like 25-20%. . .
Jeff:
It’s not that they have to go any farther to prove that he was innocent or not. They just test the DNA and you’re like, “You get to go.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And you’ve been in jail for 20, right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So if 1 in 5 can be eliminated completely DNA, the other ones, you don’t have DNA… You don’t even have the DNA evidence…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You’re like, “Fuck if that… What percentage if we were able to magically, you know, CSI-style, have DNA for everything?”
Casey:
Well, you know what’s actually pretty interesting about that to me to some degree, right, is that really, at some level, murder is a very infrequent… Or the kinds of crimes that people get the death penalty for (which is usually murder but I guess maybe there’s probably some other things, I guess, I don’t know)…
Jeff:
I don’t think you can for anything but murder…
Casey:
Probably just murder, right? I don’t know.
Jeff:
Yeah. I don’t know. [ Savings on a loan… ]
Casey:
The thing with that is murder is actually fairly infrequent, right? Yeah, peeing on a 13-year old?
Jeff:
[ Savings loan, ] peeing on 13-year olds…
Casey:
Yeah. One interesting thing about that to me… We’re out of time so I don’t even know how I’m gonna say this in this amount of time but I’ll try…
Jeff:
We’ve got 5 minutes.
Casey:
It’s that the important thing is actually because murder happens so infrequently, finding the guy who did it and putting them in the chair is irrelevant, okay?
Jeff:
That’s true. Yeah.
Casey:
It doesn’t matter. What’s relevant is that people think that they’re going to get the chair because some percentage of people are probably dissuaded by that. Some aren’t. It doesn’t matter. They’re gonna kill somebody, it doesn’t matter what you do. Society could literally have no system…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
For dealing with that at all and it wouldn’t matter…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because in that moment, the person was gonna kill that person. They’re never gonna kill another person again. It literally doesn’t matter. There’s nothing we could’ve done, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But for some percentage of the people, right, it matters, right?
Jeff:
As the vengeance thing?
Casey:
Or whatever…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It matters. They wouldn’t do it because they’re afraid that they’re going to get something bad.
Jeff:
Oh, wait. I see. You’re saying the person that doesn’t kill?
Casey:
Somebody might not kill because of the deterrent.
Jeff:
I don’t think it’s a deterrent.
Casey:
It might not be. But one thing is let’s say that it was.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
The only thing that matters… They think there was. So all we really need to do is pretend that we fried someone.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Right? We play it a lot on the news…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Of somebody’s CG getting electrocuted and it’s really gory and disgusting.
Jeff:
It’s the wheel of justice.
Casey:
And there’s lots of people… Yeah, exactly. . .
Jeff:
It’s your wheel of justice.
Casey:
It’s the wheel of justice.
Jeff:
Do you want to tell the wheel of justice…
Casey:
It’s not mine.
Jeff:
I know it’s…
Casey:
That’s Vincent [inaudible 68:29]
Jeff:
Vincent’s…
Casey:
A childhood friend of mine…
Jeff:
Came up with the wheel of justice?
Casey:
It’s not the wheel of justice. It’s the wheel of peace.
Jeff:
The wheel of peace…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
You’ve got 3 minutes. Say the wheel of peace.
Casey:
The wheel of peace is basically is current foreign policy but my childhood friend…
Jeff:
Established this long ago.
Casey:
God bless him, established this on his own when we were wee tots, when we were just… And I shouldn’t say childhood friend. He was a friend in high school.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It was in the town over so we didn’t get to meet him until then because our high school was [inaudible 68:54]
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Okay. Yes. And he said. . . I think… I don’t remember what the terrorist act was. It was one of the earlier ones…
Jeff:
Yeah. It’s not important.
Casey:
The coal… Something like this, right? He was like, “Okay, look. Here’s what we do. Take a bunch of these countries where they have terrorists and whatever, just anything in the Middle East, really. It doesn’t matter.”
Jeff:
Put them all.
Casey:
“We put them on a big fucking wheel…”
Jeff:
Like a wheel…
Casey:
Like the Wheel of Fortune…
Jeff:
Right,
Casey:
Only vertical…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And we put it on the White… So you read the names, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
’Cos you can’t read the names on the one on Wheel of Fortune unless…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You have the camera, right? So this is vertical so you can read it even in person. And we put it on the White House lawn.
Jeff:
They’re flags…
Casey:
Whatever, yeah. And what he said was, “When there is a terrorist attack…”
Jeff:
Of any kind…
Casey:
The president walks out to the wheel, he spins the wheel, and whatever country comes up, they drop an atomic bomb on the capital city. Or if it’s come up twice, whatever the second city is. Okay. And he was like, “That’s the foreign policy for dealing with a terrorist, okay?”
Jeff:
That’s the wheel of peace?
Casey:
Now, that was pretty funny back in the day. We had a big laugh. What’s not so funny is that’s our foreign policy…
Jeff:
Today…
Casey:
It’s unreal. It’s like the dude was brilliant. If only he knew…
Jeff:
That was awesome…
Casey:
At the time…
Jeff:
That was…
Casey:
That he wasn’t joking…
Jeff:
That was awesome.
Casey:
Would he have cried a tear of happiness or of sadness? I don’t know.
Jeff:
I say…
Casey:
I don’t get to hear from him very much these days. He never returns my email. So, I don’t know what he thinks. But it’s true.
Jeff:
It would be like the Indian on the side of the road with the pollution and a little tear…
Casey:
Yeah, exactly. I think he’d think it was pretty fucking funny because he always had a sick sense of humor just like me.
Jeff:
We need to say something light. Alright, you know what, I’m gonna tell you a 5-second story.
Casey:
We’re out of time. No, that’s it.
Jeff:
No, I’m telling you the 5-second story. I don’t care.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
5-second story…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I wanted to watch something a little racy…
Casey:
On the Drobo?
Jeff:
No, just racy…
Casey:
Like porn?
Jeff:
Not porn…
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
I needed something with some story.
Casey:
Oh, okay.
Jeff:
So, I hear good things about “Gia” with Angelina Jolie…
Casey:
Oh, okay. Yeah…
Jeff:
When she’s young, okay, when she’s still fucking nuts, alright…
Casey:
What does that mean, “fucking nuts”?
Jeff:
When she’s…
Casey:
When she’s insane or something?
Jeff:
She was nuts when she was a kid.
Casey:
Really?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Alright, yeah. Okay.
Jeff:
Okay. She was walking around with vials of blood, right? Billy Bob’s blood around her neck.
Casey:
What?
Jeff:
She’s fucked up.
Casey:
What are you talking about?
Jeff:
I’m just telling you.
Casey:
I have no idea what you just said…
Jeff:
Doesn’t matter…
Casey:
But okay…
Jeff:
It’s true.
Casey:
Alright. Sean will post a link. I’ll click on the link and I’ll find that out, I guess.
Jeff:
She was fucking nuts.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I was like, “I need a movie from when she was nuts and not the goodwill ambassador to fucking wherever.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“I need nuts Angelina Jolie.”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
“I need naked Angelina Jolie.”
Casey:
Naked is nice.
Jeff:
Both of them happen… Find out from someone else that “Gia” in particular has naked Angelina Jolie, young Angelina, nuts Angelina Jolie…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And lesbian Angelina Jolie.
Casey:
Okay. So it’s basically the perfect movie for this situation.
Jeff:
I’m like, “This is score,” right?
Casey:
Okay. Alright.
Jeff:
So I get “Gia” and I’m sitting down and I’m like, “This is gonna be awesome,” alright…
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
I get…
Casey:
I see. You’re all unbuttoned… Reclined on the couch, right, tissues in hand. You’re like, “This is gonna be great.”
Jeff:
No, I’ve taken my Flomax…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
I’m ready.
Casey:
Oh, so you don’t need the tissues ‘cos your Flomax-ed up…
Jeff:
I’m ready to roll.
Casey:
Okay. Perfect. So you’re gonna retrograde the shit out of Angelina Jolie in about 5 minutes?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I put on “Gia”…
Casey:
I’m loving this story.
Jeff:
Okay. I’m ready to go. Okay.
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
She’s naked. There’s that.
Casey:
Alright. It’s going well then.
Jeff:
The movie takes a dark turn.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Turns out… I didn’t know this…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
AIDS. She gets the AIDS.
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
She gets the drug…
Casey:
Wow…
Jeff:
She gets the drug habits. I’m like…
Casey:
Wow…
Jeff:
I’m watching this going, “This is… This is looking good. This is… This…” And then…
Casey:
Oh, my God.
Jeff:
By the end of the movie, I’m like, “This is the anti…”
Casey:
That is awesome.
Jeff:
“This is someone…”
Casey:
That is so awesome.
Jeff:
There should be a warning on this movie saying…
Casey:
“Warning: This is not erotic. You’re gonna get fucked up by this film.”
Jeff:
You’re not gonna like the ending. This is not gonna work for you.
Casey:
So basically… Okay. You basically had the vicarious experience of sleeping with a hot chick and then finding out she had AIDS.
Jeff:
Apparently because I…
Casey:
That is fucking scary. Were you worried about your own transmission…
Jeff:
No, I was just fucking, like… I was more mad… I was like…
Casey:
What was the emotion that you were feeling?
Jeff:
I need to…
Casey:
Was this like “Rent”? Was this like going to see “Rent”?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
The motion was I need to do more research before choosing my hot girl movies…
Casey:
Wow…
Jeff:
Not the way it should go…
Casey:
So you should’ve gone with the fucking porn, man, because that wouldn’t have happened. They don’t put that in a porn film.
Jeff:
This is my warning. This is my…
Casey:
Nobody in their right fucking mind would put that in a porn film.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Even the horse fucking dude…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
From the previous podcast…
Jeff:
Wouldn’t do it…
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
It took a turn for the worst.
Casey:
He wouldn’t go that far.
Jeff:
I’m warning my listeners.
Casey:
Wow. So don’t rent “Gia”.
Jeff:
Yeah. If you’re looking for that kind of thing. Anyway, Podcast@MollyRocket.com. We are so out of time.
Casey:
We are out of time.
Jeff:
Thanks for coming. Remember, tell a friend. We are doubling, tripling, quadrupling…
Casey:
Oh, every week, hundreds of thousands of listeners…
Jeff:
Podcast@MollyRocket.com…
Casey:
The server needs to go down with so much traffic.
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Thanks, everybody.
Casey:
Bye, everybody.
Jeff:
Bye.
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casey muratori
the jeff and casey show - season 1 - episode 17
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