Blog
Bio
The Technician
No Imperfections Noted
The Jeff and Casey Show
Jeff and Casey Time
Casey Muratori
Seattle, WA
An Asshole Sitting Behind a Sushi Bar
"Ghandi drank it all the time."
Original air date: June 15th, 2008
Topics. Democratic illusions. Hotties for social change. Crapple. R. Kelley. Don’t Mess with the Roberts. Intent matters. Lucas and Tojo. Copyright is unpatriotic. Exporting culture.
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Transcript
Jeff:
Don’t do that. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Jeff & Casey Show.
Casey:
Welcome back to the Jeff & Casey Show.
Jeff:
June 14, 2008. Seattle, Washington.
Casey:
I am so excited to do the podcast today, I have to tell you, because…
Jeff:
It’s been a long time.
Casey:
It has been a long time. You have been… You almost were dead. Technically, you were like, this far away…
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
You can’t see what I’m doing right now but I’m making little, tiny calipers.
Jeff:
We had issues…
Casey:
You were very ill.
Jeff:
The only thing that saved us was having a few in the can.
Casey:
Yes. We had…
Jeff:
But it’s been 3 weeks…
Casey:
Exactly.
Jeff:
It’s been 24 days since our last podcast.
Casey:
Yes, it has.
Jeff:
Which means we’re ready to roll.
Casey:
I missed the podcast. I missed the podcast. This was something that I was so incredulous about when you kept saying, “We have to do a podcast. We have to do a podcast.” I was like, “Why do we have to do a podcast?” I was like, “Okay, we’ll go do this podcast and that will get it out of Jeff’s system and it’ll be fine.”
Jeff:
And then…
Casey:
And now, I’m looking forward to the podcast every week…
Jeff:
You like a good podcast.
Casey:
I love doing the podcast. It’s so much fun.
Jeff:
Well, I’m gonna apologize in advance because I’m gonna be clearing my throat and coughing…
Casey:
Because he’s still sick.
Jeff:
I’m still sick. I can’t get rid of this but… We’re going anyway.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But there’s gonna be funny noises coming from me.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I think the first thing we need to clear up was the last 2 podcasts, I sounded terrible…
Casey:
Yes, that’s right.
Jeff:
And we have determined…
Casey:
It was not your fault.
Jeff:
It was not my fucking fault, baby.
Casey:
It was not your fault.
Jeff:
This was…
Casey:
Something was wrong with the microphone. And we tested it extensively today and determined to within any reasonable amount of engineering that it was the microphone, literally, not the cables, not the plug, not the windscreen, not how far Jeff sits away from the microphone (which is too far, by the way)…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
But it is not that.
Jeff:
It was just that something happened.
Casey:
Yeah. Even when… When I talked into it, my volume was okay because I could shout through whatever the problem was but it still sounded shitty. Like, my voice sounded really tinny and weird.
Jeff:
It seems like it takes out the lower frequencies. And for me…
Casey:
Yeah. We don’t know how to use these microphones…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So it may just be that we, like, fucked something up somehow. But yeah…
Jeff:
Well, something’s weird ‘cos… Yeah, hearing you through it, you sounded different but not completely weird like me. My voice is kinda weird on a frequency scale, anyway…
Casey:
I think it’s just ‘cos I’m louder.
Jeff:
Maybe. When we did that thing, remember when I did…
Casey:
I think that’s all it was…
Jeff:
The voice codec thing and everyone in the office on the voice codecs and Miles sounded okay.
Casey:
Except you.
Jeff:
It’s as if I’m playing music through it.
Casey:
Really.
Jeff:
And one thing that’s different is…
Casey:
Maybe your voice is just the sweet, sweet sound of music, Jeff.
Jeff:
No. I think it’s that I have… My voice is pretty l--. I have kind of a high-pitched, nasally voice. But there’s a lower…
Casey:
A lower undertone…
Jeff:
When you look at it in the little frequency grapher thing that I have…
Casey:
Uh-huh… Your pincers…
Jeff:
There’s 2 peaks.
Casey:
Your pincers. You have double…
Jeff:
Something weird. But anyway…
Casey:
Very interesting…
Jeff:
Now that we have a good mic, we’re back on track…
Casey:
Hopefully… We won’t know that until we actually hear this and see if it’s okay.
Jeff:
We won’t know that and in fact, this probably no one’s gonna hear this because the number of things that have gone wrong today…
Casey:
Were insane.
Jeff:
It’s been…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
It’s been 24 days. It may as well have been a year because your laptop…
Casey:
Okay. Yes.
Jeff:
Seconds before…
Casey:
So I was at home, right, using my laptop. It’s plugged in. It’s my workstation at home.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I shut it off.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I shut down, okay.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Unplugged the monitor cable, Ethernet cable, USB cable, and power cable. Closed the lid. Took it over here. And it would not turn back on again.
Jeff:
Wouldn’t boot. We tried all the crazy Apple stuff.
Casey:
And I mean like not at all. Like, all you would get is the power light. The power light would come on.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Nothing else would happen. Even the startup sound would not…
Jeff:
Not even the Apple bong…
Casey:
The Apple bong would not… Unless we did that thing where you unplugged the AC power, unplug the batter, whatever…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So I did what anybody would do who has an Apple computer and needs a repair…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
We went to the Genius Bar.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
But the Genius Bar was full. Apparently, there are not as many geniuses at the Apple Store as there are people with broken Apple computers.
Jeff:
There were a lot of people there.
Casey:
Which makes me think… I’m just thinking out loud here that maybe if they’ve got these geniuses, they should fucking assign them t building the computer so it doesn’t fucking…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Stop working arbitrarily. And then, they wouldn’t need so many at the fucking bar. But suffice to say…
Jeff:
Well, you also…
Casey:
I dropped it off.
Jeff:
Yes. Well, you had an anti-genius moment at the Genius Bar, too.
Casey:
Yeah, that’s a good point.
Jeff:
So, we can’t give too much shit.
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
’Cos they’re like, “What’s your log-in password?” And you just gave it to them.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Well, first you’re like, “Do I have to?” And then they said, “Yes.” And then you gave it to them.
Casey:
Yeah, I know.
Jeff:
And then afterwards, I’m like, “Why didn’t you just lie?”
Casey:
“Why did you give them that?”
Jeff:
“Why did you give them that?” And then…
Casey:
I have no idea.
Jeff:
And so now…
Casey:
Well, here’s…
Jeff:
Now you’re gonna be changing 8 million passwords…
Casey:
Well, it was not my password that gets into TrueCrypt or anything.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So you can’t actually get anything with that password…
Jeff:
Yeah, you TrueCrypt almost everything.
Casey:
Right. Anything that’s important, like any MollyRocket stuff is TrueCrypt-ed which is the only thing I have that is of value. Like, I don’t have anything else, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, I guess my bank records (which are also TrueCrypt-ed) but, like, there’s basically just like all of my work is TrueCrypt-ed and that’s it. At best, maybe you could use… If there was something in the web browser cache, you could log in to… But you can’t, like, Ameritrade and that shit flushes that stuff and asks you the security questions and all that shit so you can’t get any of that stuff…
Jeff:
Well, you could… Right.
Casey:
But this is what went through my head, okay, because I’ve had sort of this experience before. What went through my head was what if they get to that screen if I don’t tell them a thing or if I give them the wrong one… What if they get to that screen and they’re like, “Well, protocol says we have to do it,” so they just erase the hard drive.
Jeff:
Wipe it? Yeah.
Casey:
Right? I was like, “Well, me changing this password which has been my password for 13 years…”
Jeff:
It’s time to change anyway.
Casey:
It’s time to fucking change the password. I was like, “I’m just gonna give them the password because it’s probably… Chances are their desire to haxor my machine is less than their desire to fucking format my drive…”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Which is probably the more likely outcome in realistic terms…
Jeff:
That’s a very high…
Casey:
Very high probability. It may happen anyway, right. They may just fucking start with that, right. We’ll start with the wiping and then see if the computer works.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We’ll wave the fucking magnet over it anyway. So anyway, where we’re at right now is we had to use a different machine to do the podcast because we normally use my Macbook. The Macbook is with the geniuses right now who are genius-ing it up over there in Bellevue and we hope they fucking fix it by tomorrow or Monday, let’s hope, and not like 3 weeks from now or whenever they get their genius on.
Jeff:
I’m scared.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You were not that upset. I would have been freaking out ‘cos I hate re-setting up a new computer just ’cos it takes so long. But you must… I think you’re compartmentalized better than I am.
Casey:
Well, I’m set up for that. I can have a machine backed to my dead machine in far less than a day.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Basically, in fact, if all I care about is dev, literally, it’s like a matter of how long does it take the OS to install.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
’Cos then, you just [inaudible 7:01] it and it’s my dead machine.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You don’t have to do anything else.
Jeff:
I have to do a lot of stuff because I have…
Casey:
But Windows still takes 3 hours to install with all the service packages…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So it still takes a while.
Jeff:
Well, I have to do Windows and have to do 14 different console dev environments…
Casey:
Oh, yeah, that’s bad… Yeah.
Jeff:
And then, re--… If the machine changes, God help you because then you have to re-get…
Casey:
Oh, auth keys, yeah…
Jeff:
Authorizations for all your Mac address…
Casey:
Yeah, that’s terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible.
Jeff:
And now, in the last version, they now check hardware Mac addresses instead of asking the driver what the Mac addresses… Because you used to be able to go in to the driver and like, “Pretend you’re this Mac address.”
Casey:
I hate that shit.
Jeff:
Which, by the way, if you do that and switch your Mac address…
Casey:
Yeah?
Jeff:
To something… To another machine…
Casey:
[ It complains? ]
Jeff:
No, no. It’s fine. If you do that, forget, and then put your old machine back on the network, you are in a world of pain.
Casey:
Really?
Jeff:
You cannot… That is almost un-diagnosable, what the fuck is going on in your network…
Casey:
Because of Mac address collision you mean?
Jeff:
Yeah, ‘cos there’s no way to know…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
All of a sudden, 2 machines are responding to thing… Especially if you have the same user on both, like the Windows network sharing…
Casey:
’Cos it just thinks there’s double packets from the…
Jeff:
It’s just random shit happens. It’s bad.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And that one screwed me for about an hour once…
Casey:
And you’re like, “What the hell?”
Jeff:
I do not know how I… All of a sudden it hit me…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And if it didn’t, I could’ve been sending machines back over and over and over again…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Because I’d reformatted that other machine that had the old Mac address…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So I had my new machine, switched it to the old machine’s Mac address.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That old machine was in a closet for a long time. I’ve ended up reformatting…
Casey:
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Jeff:
And using it… My machine that was working started misbehaving.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
If I didn’t remember, I probably would have sent back machine after machine…
Casey:
After machine and they’d be, “What’d going on?”
Jeff:
Yeah. It was just not…
Casey:
And you’d switch the Mac address again, going like, “Oh, I need to do that…”
Jeff:
Exactly.
Casey:
And they’d just keep fucking up. Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah. But now, you can’t do that anyways…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So… It used to be a nice way because when you have…
Casey:
Software licensing needs to die.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It needs to die hard.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
Right? Like just… Ugh, it’s the worst thing.
Jeff:
It is the worst.
Casey:
It’s the worst thing ever.
Jeff:
So what if the geniuses actually come through? What are we laying the odds on that they fix your computer?
Casey:
Well, they’re contractually obligated to fix the computer. So that’s not really the problem.
Jeff:
I mean just geniuses. I mean, they go back there and they press the magic Steve Jobs..
Casey:
Oh, you think like, like, it comes back tomorrow…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And it’s fine.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I seriously doubt that’s gonna happen.
Jeff:
Zero percent?
Casey:
Yeah. Because you tried all of the obvious things, kind of, you know what I mean?
Jeff:
There were some funny…
Casey:
Oh, yeah, like hold down these 8,000 keys… Yeah.
Jeff:
Option + Command + P + R + hold the power button… Yeah, it was awesome. I mean, for an easy to use computer, holding down 4 keys at once is almost ergonomically impossible. And they’re supposed to be easy to use. I don’t know what, like, someone with tiny hands would have done. It was like doing a full octave stretch on a piano in some of those maneuvers.
Casey:
Hold on a second here. I have to turn off the power saving on this thing.
Jeff:
See, you’re doing more stuff. So anyway…
Casey:
Okay, there we go.
Jeff:
Because of Casey’s laptop now, we don’t record on Casey’s laptop. We remote desktop…
Casey:
Right, we use it to remote desktop to the machine that does the recording.
Jeff:
And then we have some… It’s just been…
Casey:
Oh, we should say, before we get on to other topics, by the way… We recorded our trip to the Apple Store…
Jeff:
Yeah, we have…
Casey:
Using the portable Mp3 player…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So we will post that as a test to see how it sounds if we take one with us because maybe in the future, we will want to do…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
A roaming podcast…
Jeff:
I would like…
Casey:
And we’ll see how that comes out.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Because I used my little [inaudible 10:39] portable recording [inaudible 10:41]
Jeff:
That will just be an optional download for the thing…
Casey:
A little optional down--… A little bonus…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Teaser…
Jeff:
So those of you who are on iTunes, there’s more content if you come…
Casey:
That’s true…
Jeff:
To the site…
Casey:
Yeah, to the site, which actually… Should we say right now that we’re gonna have a site by the time this is up?
Jeff:
We are going to have a site but not by the time this is up.
Casey:
Oh, okay, so next week…
Jeff:
Before next week, we should have a…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
We should…
Casey:
Have a little something.
Jeff:
See, we’re getting just absolutely trashed with the amount of downloads and it’s crippling MollyRocket.
Casey:
Furious… We get at least 150 downloads…
Jeff:
Yeah, and…
Casey:
Per podcast.
Jeff:
And those are…
Casey:
This is fierce. There’s no way to support that kind of bandwidth.
Jeff:
No. So yes, we are going to… We are gonna get a site for this. So it’ll be…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Easy to focus your podcasting interests… In fact, this week, we’ll tell everybody… Everybody, all of our listeners have a job this week.
Casey:
What’s that?
Jeff:
All of our listeners…
Casey:
Uh-oh…
Jeff:
Need to tell some other person…
Casey:
Oh, no. It’s an Amway scheme.
Jeff:
We’re gonna go from a hundred to 300 next week.
Casey:
This is awesome.
Jeff:
We get, like, 500 downloads a month, right? Of our podcast…
Casey:
It’s more like 600, I think…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
But yeah… Maybe more…
Jeff:
So we’re gonna get 1,200 because every listener needs to tell somebody else…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
To listen to our podcast…
Casey:
There we go…
Jeff:
And then…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And then, we’ll track it and see how powerful our listeners are.
Casey:
Now, the interesting thing about this is… I don’t know if you’re aware of this, Jeff, but we actually don’t make any money on the podcasts. So having more people is strictly for our own ego-stroking.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Because absolutely nothing is gonna happen…
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
If twice as many people listen to this podcast, absolutely nothing happens, right?
Jeff:
[inaudible 12:19] is gonna pick us up next month.
Casey:
So it is literally just that…
Jeff:
So we need to, like, be…
Casey:
Oh, that’s it? It’s [inaudible 12:24] is gonna pick us up?
Jeff:
Yeah, exactly.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah. And you know…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Stern got 400 million. We get…
Casey:
Does [inaudible 12:29] have any money anymore, though, is the real question.
Jeff:
That might be trouble. That might be trouble.
Casey:
What are they gonna pay you with? IOU’s or something? A free satellite radio for your car which you don’t even want?
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s totally true.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I want to get my… Yeah. In the…
Casey:
So you know what, on the… I should mention…
Jeff:
Sorry everybody, this is gonna be a lot of coughing.
Casey:
I know. People listening to the podcast… I feel like the popularity is somehow growing because, like, I was out to dinner with Steve Theodore and his wife, [ Hi ], right…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And we were out to dinner…
Jeff:
Do you just always say, “Hi, [ Hi ]”?
Casey:
[ Hi Han ] is her name.
Jeff:
No, but do you say, “Hi, [ Hi ]”?
Casey:
Oh, yes, “Hi, [ Hi ]”, yes.
Jeff:
’Cos I love that.
Casey:
Yeah. Oh, I’m sure she’s never heard that before.
Jeff:
No, but…
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
She has to suck it up.
Casey:
They… The first thing they said when we sat down is, like, “Is this gonna be on the podcast?” Like, something from the dinner. And I was delighted. I was tickled pink. I was, like, somebody I didn’t even know… I never told them about the podcast. He just heard about it from, you know… He’s a friend of ours so he heard it from some other friend, right, or whatever…
Jeff:
Yeah, sure.
Casey:
They listen to it together in the car. I was delighted. I was like, “My friends are enjoying this podcast…”
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
That is more than I had hoped for.
Jeff:
They know more about us now…
Casey:
I enjoy the podcast. It’s great. Yes.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But the interesting thing is that now, I realize they are going to be on the podcast. They asked if they were going to be on the podcast and they are on the podcast. And I’ll tell you why they’re one the podcast.
Jeff:
Tell me.
Casey:
First of all, they’re great, anyway, I would be happy to mention on the podcast regardless…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
But they’re on the podcast specifically because they pointed out something which may actually be accurate.
Jeff:
Tell me.
Casey:
And the listeners will have to judge.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
And Jeff, you may have to get up from your microphone here for a second but what they said was…
Jeff:
Tell me. Bring it.
Casey:
That the poster… The poster…
Jeff:
The poster…
Casey:
For Adam Sandler’s new movie, “You Don’t Mess with the Zohan”…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Okay… Zohan/Zohan… I’m not sure how you pronounce that.
Jeff:
It looks like the worst movie ever. Yes.
Casey:
Adam Sandler looks exactly like you on the poster.
Jeff:
Adam S--… What is the poster?
Casey:
Now, I have… Here’s the poster…
Jeff:
Show me the poster.
Casey:
I have gotten it up on the screen for you to look at.
Jeff:
He’s kind of got some highlights…
Casey:
He has your facial hair, for starters. And he has your top hair, too. It’s kind of like…
Jeff:
Yeah, he kind of does have the…
Casey:
Blond-highlighted and it’s sort of short but a little long on top…
Jeff:
What does he have…
Casey:
If you just squinted at this, it could be you.
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
It really could be you.
Jeff:
Don’t Mess with Jeff.
Casey:
Except that you probably can’t do that split.
Jeff:
So what is he holding?
Casey:
He’s holding a hairdryer, I think, and some scissors…
Jeff:
So, what…
Casey:
He’s doing… You have to turn your head ‘cos he’s actually… This poster, I’ve rotated for your viewing… I actually used the rotate button. He’s actually sort of sideways…
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
Right. You see what I’m saying?
Jeff:
Yeah. The…
Casey:
So I will post a link to this…
Jeff:
Yeah, and the people can see…
Casey:
And the viewers can decide. But [ Hi ] and Steve pointed this out and I think they might be right. I do see a resemblance.
Jeff:
Alright. “Don’t Mess with Jeff” is what we’re saying.
Casey:
You don’t mess with the Jeff-han.
Jeff:
No, that looks like the worst movie ever.
Casey:
It may well be the worst movie ever.
Jeff:
I mean…
Casey:
But I don’t know. Adam Sandler doesn’t have a stellar track record so…
Jeff:
Right. Well, until “Punch-Drunk Love”, I was like…
Casey:
“Happy Gilmore”…
Jeff:
It actually…
Casey:
“Happy Gilmore” was good.
Jeff:
“Happy Gilmore” was the only one I ever liked.
Casey:
The first 30 minutes of “The Wedding Singer”…
Jeff:
I don’t even like that but… I mean…
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
I like a few quotes on that but…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Really, when everyone… Like “The Waterboy” had come out…
Casey:
I never saw that one…
Jeff:
I would actually… It hurt me. Like…
Casey:
It hurt you physically?
Jeff:
Because I’m like, “What human being… How…” This is when I started referring to people as “the humans” because there is no way I can share genetic material with someone that found “The Waterboy” funny.
Casey:
Jeff…
Jeff:
And it sold 160 million Dollars or something.
Casey:
Jeff, I don’t know what you’re talking about or who you think you’re kidding because you have the worst fucking movie taste of anyone I know.
Jeff:
No, mine is fine…
Casey:
You have absolutely…
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
No credentials to say that someone who likes “The Waterboy”…
Jeff:
Yes…
Casey:
You like “Roadhouse”…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
And “Independence Day”, okay?
Jeff:
I could… No, I don’t like…
Casey:
You’ve watched these films…
Jeff:
I will… Wait, wait, wait. Wait, let me clarify that.
Casey:
“Evil Dead”. You like all these weird stupid shady films.
Jeff:
“Evil Dead”, I like… I liked “Evil Dead”. I don’t…
Casey:
You watched “Arachnia”. You even… The fact that you even know what that is was a huge black mark on your…
Jeff:
The fact that I’ve seen everything…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Only makes my opinion more valid, in my opinion.
Casey:
No, it means you have no bar for even putting a film in, okay?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Those people, when you said that “The Waterboy” grossed 100 million Dollars, that’s just people went to see it. It doesn’t mean they liked it. Maybe they hated the film.
Jeff:
No, 160 million.
Casey:
But you probably went to see it in the theater. You’re probably part of that 100 million Dollars.
Jeff:
I didn’t go see it.
Casey:
’Cos you see all these films…
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
You’re supporting…
Jeff:
I did not…
Casey:
Exactly these films…
Jeff:
I would not support them.
Casey:
You saw it somehow.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
You saw it somehow.
Jeff:
I’m just saying there are 2 classes of movies. Movies that are just good…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And then movies… That are good or great…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Like, “Hey, they’re awesome.”
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Then there’s movies that are good Saturday afternoon movies…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
“Independence Day” is not a good movie. Okay.
Casey:
Yes, that’s correct. You’re right on target.
Jeff:
But it’s a good Saturday afternoon movie.
Casey:
Whoa…
Jeff:
“Roadhouse” is right in between…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Good Saturday movie and good movie.
Casey:
Okay. You’re just straddled. You’re not sure where it is. It’s right in between. It’s the unhappy middle.
Jeff:
Right. “Roadhouse” is veering on greatness, I will say.
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
Because…
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
The only thing that prevents it from being great is the fact that you’re not quite sure if they were serious or not because if it was…
Casey:
If you knew…
Jeff:
More clearly that it was, like, we know…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
That this is a fucking joke, then I’d be like, “That’s one of the best movies.”
Casey:
But since it may be…
Jeff:
But because it might be…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Sincere… It is just a funny… There are a lot of good lines.
Casey:
This brings up a very interesting topic, then, because what you’re saying to me then is artistically speaking…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Artistically speaking now, you are of the opinion that intent matters.
Jeff:
Intent does matter.
Casey:
It matters what you were trying to do. It’s not just the end product.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You have to know what the person was thinking…
Jeff:
Well, wait. No, le--…
Casey:
When they created the product is what you’re sort of saying.
Jeff:
Let me say something. A great movie can just be a great movie without intent, right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
A movie that’s on the edge, I will judge their intent.
Casey:
Really?
Jeff:
Yeah. Like, if they were trying to be sincere, like… They were trying to make something awesome…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
And just missed it…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And like… I don’t know, “Magnolia” would fall in that for me…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Where he was going for something…
Casey:
I see…
Jeff:
He was making it with his heart on his sleeve. I don’t think he hid it.
Casey:
But he tried…
Jeff:
But he tried something interesting…
Casey:
And maybe you’ll give him some credit for that.
Jeff:
I will give him credit for that.
Casey:
Okay. So basically, what you’re saying is…
Jeff:
Now, the worst movies…
Casey:
Your rating system is there’s a rating for the film that is intent-free. So I can say that this movie is so good…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Without considering the person’s intent… If that rating is somewhat low, then maybe I will give them a secondary rating which is, like, what it is considering what they were trying?
Jeff:
Right. And I could do that the other way, too, in the sense that, like, the “Indiana Jones” movie, I thought was…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Mediocre to good…
Casey:
“Crystal Skull”, you’re saying?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“Crystal Skull”? Okay.
Jeff:
Well, it’s like, “Eh…” Right?
Casey:
Yeah, it’s “Eh”…
Jeff:
But their intent was definitely not good, right?
Casey:
No, it was not good.
Jeff:
Right?
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And…
Casey:
And it sounds like it was not their intent that was not good…
Jeff:
Right it was George’s…
Casey:
But specifically…
Jeff:
Specifically George…
Casey:
George Lucas’ intent that was not good…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
At least from everything you read.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
He has the ability to fuck up projects so much, like… It’s unreal. I mean…
Jeff:
I think…
Casey:
If I was a “Star Wars” fan… I’m glad that I was never really a “Star Wars” fan because I know people who are so into those films…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And they just got shat on, like, he did not care at all.
Jeff:
Well, it was Pat Oswalt that said that…
Casey:
He did not care.
Jeff:
“If I discovered a time machine, I’d go back and hit George Lucas with a shovel so he doesn’t make the prequels.”
Casey:
I’m gonna tell a little anecdote now because it is probably… Like, there are certain formative experiences in your lifetime, okay… And this is something that totally changed my perspective on creating things, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Which is what I’ve always done for a living. They’re not movies or anything big like that…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But even just… If you’re a programmer, you make stuff…
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
And someone uses it. That’s what you do. You’re not like an accountant who there is a prescribed answer, right. So you have to make decisions. And sometimes, they might be purely artistic like if you’re making a game. And sometimes, they’re pseudo artistic, right? But they’re still artistic because we don’t have the science yet to say, even for a program, right… Forget the fact… I’m working on a game now but even just when we’re working on tech, there’s still decisions that are ambiguous…
Jeff:
Sure. And even tech…
Casey:
And it’s somewhat an art form at that point…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
How you make those decisions, right?
Jeff:
We’re even…
Casey:
It’s philosophical on some level.
Jeff:
Right. And even tech is going to have decisions that are more based on style than… There’s not a right or wrong. There’s a style.
Casey:
Right. As I was saying, when science has not been able to determine a full on metric…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
For just “this is better, period”, then somewhere, you’re making a judgment call…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And your opinions are coming into play there, right, whether you like to think of it that way or not, right?
Jeff:
And in programming, I don’t think…
Casey:
But…
Jeff:
Programming is mostly that in [ my mind ]…
Casey:
Very much, yeah. Because, well, it’s so far away from being a pure thing at this point.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s just not even close, really.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And who knows when it would ever get there.
Jeff:
I don’t think it will. I don’t think it’s that…
Casey:
Well, stuff like painting has been around forever and even basic shit like that isn’t really solid, right? It’s not like, “Here’s what makes something beautiful and not.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, we don’t know. And programming is at least as complicated, right?
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
So it depends what the output is. Sometimes the output is [ rigorously ] defined and so we can measure it. But other times…
Jeff:
Well…
Casey:
I don’t know. It’s just… Is it pleasing or whatever?
Jeff:
You can measure the correctness or something…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Of something, like, whether it works correctly or not. But the beauty in it is not whether it’s correct or not. That’s a different metric.
Casey:
But sometimes, there’s more to it than that, certainly.
Jeff:
Right. And programming is all about that in my opinion.
Casey:
Anyway, here’s the anecdote…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
That totally changed my opinion. It was that there is a sushi restaurant in Vancouver, Canada.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It’s very famous.
Jeff:
Oh, this is your fancy…
Casey:
It’s called Tojo.
Jeff:
Tojo, that’s right. Toe-jamz…
Casey:
And in fact, the guy’s name is Tojo.
Jeff:
Oh, okay.
Casey:
And in fact, Tojo is often there behind the bar.
Jeff:
Oh, okay. Hang with Tojo…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Sure. Hang out with Tojo… So I’ve been there a couple times. I don’t go to Vancouver very often. But every time that I’ve ever gone to Vancouver, I go there.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Now, this was before… It was kind of… When I used to go there, it used to be really impressive to me because I didn’t… I had not been very worldly about sushi previously. So it was one of the only fancy sushi places that I’d ever really been, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And so, I thought very highly of it. Since then, I’ve had a lot of better sushi at a lot of other places…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So nowadays, I wouldn’t even rank it… I would probably not give a shit if I went to Vancouver. I wouldn’t even bother to go there, right.
Jeff:
Okay. You found places here in Seattle?
Casey:
Oh, yeah. Like, I’d much rather go to Nishino than there.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And one of the reasons for it is the anecdote that I’m about to say.
Jeff:
Hit it.
Casey:
And that anecdote is… So one time, I went there with Doug Church, who I’m sure you know, right. And ‘cos he works for Electronic Arts…
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
Nowadays… And he doesn’t work for Electronic Arts in Vancouver but sometimes, he is up there because that’s one of their big studios…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And sometimes, there’s meetings, you know, or whatever. And he’s pretty high up in their chain of folks. So sometimes, he has to be up there for those sorts of things, I guess.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Not so much anymore perhaps but there was a time when he was there fairly frequently. So I would go up there and we’d hang out for a day or whatever after his stuff is done and we’d go to Tojo’s. So we had done this a couple times. And we were, in general, not too enthusiastic about the non-sushi part of Tojo’s because typically, if you’re sitting at a bar at a fancy sushi restaurant, a lot of times, it’s omakase. Period.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So you cannot order shit.
Jeff:
You are not getting a bento box or something there.
Casey:
They just give you whatever they’re gonna give you. Now, at any sushi place that I respect anyway, that’s what I order, right, because it’s always better. They’re always gonna give you cool, wacky shit. And in general, you get the best fish that way. And it’s often cheaper than if you’d ordered. It’s like it’s all around good. So any place that I go here in Seattle, I always order that anyway, right.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But one of the problems with some of these fancy schmancy places, especially if they don’t know you (you’re not a regular or whatever) is they give you some ridiculous assortment of shit that you don’t want.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It’s like some mushroom soup thing or whatever or some, like, baked fish thing. It’s like, I don’t fucking want that, right. It’s like, I don’t want that. I came here for sushi and I want sushi, not a Japanese traditional-style meal…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
If I wanted that, I would’ve gone somewhere to get that because frankly, there are better places…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Usually, to get that, right?
Jeff:
Alright. I’m with you.
Casey:
So we decided, when we were gonna go there one time, to see if there was any way that we could order anything else, right.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So we could just be like, “We want, you know, a sushi sashimi thing. Can you do that?” Right? So we went there and that was literally all we said. We sat down. They asked us as they always do whether we had any dietary restrictions or whatever. And we were like, “No. We can eat anything. But we wanted to do just a sushi sashimi thing.” And Tojo, who was there, who we were talking to, got like, enraged at this.
Jeff:
Really?
Casey:
He was super mad because we were suggesting to him what we wanted to eat and this was offensive to him, right.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
And I can sort of understand why it’s offensive in the sense that, like, if I’m putting myself in his position, like so I’m a douche, right, and I think really highly of myself and, of course, whatever I pick is gonna be the best possible thing to eat, so why would somebody who comes into my restaurant think that they could suggest something, right?
Jeff:
Right. But you didn’t suggest a thing.
Casey:
That’s right.
Jeff:
You suggested…
Casey:
We just suggested, “How about you fucking serve us some sushi this time because that’s what we came here to eat instead of all the rest of this shit which I don’t want?”
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Right? But he wasn’t interested in that and he was very angry. He kind of sort of apologized a little bit afterwards…
Jeff:
This is so weird.
Casey:
But not really, okay. And so, the nice part about this for me was I was on the other side of the rage. So I could hear it and think about it from the consumer, from the customer’s standpoint, right?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
And what I realized was as follows — For anything where an aesthetic decision is involved, right…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Then the person who’s consuming it, right, is the person who knows best, right? The “customer is always right” thing…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Is true for their consumption, okay?
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
And that goes extremely… It holds extremely for something like sushi where I am the only person who’s gonna eat this meal.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Okay?
Jeff:
You’re not sharing ingredients.
Casey:
He’s serving it directly to me, okay?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And he is now presuming that he knows better than me what kind of sushi I enjoy…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Which is categorically wrong, okay?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Sometimes that may be true if the person’s like some fucking retard and doesn’t know anything about sushi.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
Right? But I’ve got to be honest with you, okay. Tojo doesn’t fucking impress me, okay? I may not know how to prepare sushi although I do know… I know the technological aspect of how you prepare sushi…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I just don’t prepare it myself so I don’t have the skill, right, I don’t have the hand skill to do it. But I understand it.
Jeff:
You don’t have Tojo’s mojo.
Casey:
Well, I don’t know, right. Yeah.
Jeff:
I just wanted say it.
Casey:
But I know a fuck of a lot about sushi, okay.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
You’re not talking to a novice here, ace…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Right? And I know the shit you’re serving me. Like, when you serve me something, it’s not a mystery to me. I’m not like, “Oh, my God, Tojo. What have you prepared?” It’s like, “No, I know what you prepared me.”
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
“And half the time, it’s something that I don’t fucking want ‘cos I’ve had it before. I even had it here before and you don’t make it very well. Like, I’ve had it somewhere else and it was better.”
Jeff:
So what happened?
Casey:
“So how about you listen to your fucking customer because they’re trying to give you valuable information?”
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
So that was the thing that struck home to me was just, like… Okay, in certain situations, I can’t do that necessarily, when I’m making a game.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Because there’s many people that are gonna play a game. I can’t give you just the game that you want to play…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because I can’t sell a game just to you.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Maybe if you’re some really rich person and you want to pay me 2 million Dollars to make a game just for you, okay, great. We could do that, right? But assuming that it’s something that has to sell to 20,000-30,000 people or (worse yet) you’re Electronic Arts and it’s gotta sell to 4 million people or something; you don’t have that luxury.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You have to try and do something that’s gonna please a large number of people. Even so, right, the truism still holds that the 4 million people that you are trying to speak to…
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
Do know better than you, aggregately, what they enjoy. So listening to them is a good idea. You still need to make decisions.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
They don’t know anything about the thing, maybe, that you’re making. But some of them do.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
Some of them might be like me. They know a lot about the subject. They’re telling you an educated opinion. Some of them might be totally fucking dumb, they don’t know anything about it but they can still say something that might mean something. And if you’re not paying attention to them, you’ll miss that. Or worse yet, if you’re too arrogant to listen to what they have to say, then you’re just a fucking cunt…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Which is what Tojo was, okay. He’s just an asshole sitting behind a sushi bar whose sushi will never get any better than it is today because he thinks he’s done.
Jeff:
Right.
Jeff:
Then part of what you do is you do some stuff…
Casey:
The copyright’s over.
Jeff:
I mean…
Casey:
I’d be… I think that’s fine. Yeah.
Jeff:
But it’s exactly the opposite right now is the people that get richer are more able to enforce their copyright…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Put it under corporate ownership…
Casey:
They have more incentive to do so.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
They have more incentive to do so, certainly.
Jeff:
So anyway…
Casey:
You write something that doesn’t sell, why are you gonna go around enforcing it? You ain’t.
Jeff:
And there’s been, what, like 500 versions of “3 Musketeers”…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And there have been better ones since the initial one.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And if they locked it up and put it under corporate ownership ‘cos…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Corporations never go away. They’ll own that copyright forever.
Casey:
Yeah, forever. Yeah. So I agree with what you’re saying and I don’t think that’s socialist at all. I think what that is is actually is… That’s pro-capitalist. If I may say so, Jeff, what you’re saying, frankly, is patriotic.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
It’s American.
Jeff:
It’s American.
Casey:
It’s a core American value…
Jeff:
This is a freedom…
Casey:
This is like a Rush Limbaugh, like, talk show, like deep south. We are advocating for the American dream that has been corrupted by big government. Big governments stepping in and granting copyrights to people instead of allowing the American process of capitalist competition…
Jeff:
To take place…
Casey:
To set the world right, yeah.
Jeff:
Well, I think it’s particularly funny in our case. Certainly, culturally, America… That’s our most important export, right? Like, nothing else…
Casey:
Which is probably why it keeps getting extended.
Jeff:
Right. Because they… I mean… It’s funny because it is such a small business. I mean, the entire movie business, the entire record business, the entire game business…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is just peanuts compared to, say, like, IBM and Microsoft together.
Casey:
Right, right.
Jeff:
Right? It’s not even like a quarter of their fucking [inaudible 36:10]
Casey:
Or Google plus Microsoft…
Jeff:
Right. It’s just…
Casey:
Plus [ GE ], let’s say…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They’re huge.
Jeff:
They get insane protections…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
That like, Microsoft would fucking love to get the same kind of…
Casey:
Why do they get these protections?
Jeff:
Because I think…
Casey:
Do they have a good lobby or do they have…
Jeff:
I think it’s lobby and… Actually, I don’t think it’s lobby. I think it’s that we recognize that that is probably the most impo--… I think that the government actually recognizes that that’s the most important thing we do or export. And it is probably… Now, Mike Abrash disagrees with me on this.
Casey:
Why is it the most important thing we export?
Jeff:
Well, I mean, it’s…
Casey:
Because if it’s not the most Dollars, then it’s not…
Jeff:
Well, what…
Casey:
What do you mean?
Jeff:
The idea in this is a pretty… This isn’t my idea. This is a…
Casey:
Whose idea is it?
Jeff:
This is fairly common… It’s that by exporting American…
Casey:
Values? Or opinions?
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
Okay. So what did this start with?
Casey:
I have no idea.
Jeff:
You were… Wait. It started with something technological, though.
Casey:
No, that was just me trying to impart the anecdote of why I now… ‘Cos we were talking about intent matters…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And artistic expression and movie ratings and those sorts of things. And I was just saying that that was something that… And with… This is the… Oh, the George Lucas tie-in.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
That’s where we were.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
So I feel like George Lucas is Tojo. Millions of people all over the world are speaking coherently…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
About what he is fucking up for them…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Whether it’s the “Indiana Jones” franchise or the “Star Wars” franchise or anything the fuck else, right? He is fucking it up. And there are smart, capable people… Not necessarily just fans but smart… You can’t tell me that Steven Spielberg didn’t know there were shitty parts of that movie.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
He’s a smart guy. And even when he makes a bad movie, he’s pretty goddamn competent, okay?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
He’s never sucked as hard as George Lucas has sucked at anything he’s ever probably tried to do is my guess, right. And the scriptwriter…
Jeff:
As bad as he sucked…
Casey:
His scriptwriters, the people who work for him, all of these people probably have tried pleasantly to suggest to him that he is making shitty stuff…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Making bad decisions. And I between he just doesn’t listen. He’s like, “I’m the guy who made ‘Star Wars’ and you don’t fucking know.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Well, they do fucking know. They know better than you, you know?
Jeff:
Well, I think there’s… I think we talked about this in email once of I feel like there’s something that happens when society has taken ownership of something you’ve created to some degree. And this was the thing of, like, at some point, we paid enough (both culturally, monetarily and everything) for fucking “Star Wars” for you to not be involved in making it worse. We have more… There is more social ownership of “Star Wars” than George owns.
Casey:
That’s a good point.
Jeff:
But we have no vote on how he fucks it up. He can just fuck it up. So there is something to be said, like, this is not the communist… This isn’t like, “Hey, we should all become communists.” But it’s like, at some point, culturally, we…
Casey:
Right. Yes.
Jeff:
We bought this. You no longer… You should not be able to fuck with it.
Casey:
It’s part of the cultural mythos.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s part of your… The fabric of society…
Jeff:
Stop fucking with what we remember.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Stop making… The different people should stop making the slight adjustments to change the way that we remember.
Casey:
What you’re saying is actually… It doesn’t have anything to do with communism at all, actually. What I would say is actually the problem is the anti-capitalist nature, actually, of the situation. And I will explain what I mean by that which is the fact that copyright is anti-capitalist.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It always has been, right? That’s what it is, okay?
Jeff:
It’s a compromise.
Casey:
It’s a compromise because you need to pay back the people who created something. And it was a compromise that was created so that they have rights to it, right? But it’s anti-capitalist in the sense that if someone makes a “Star Wars” film like George Lucas makes the first “Star Wars” film, capitalism dictates that the market is best served by other people making “Star Wars” films that might be better or cheaper or more convenient or whatever. Competition creates a better product, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And what copyright does is it prevents that competition from occurring.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So one thing that… What your argument is suggesting to me has nothing to do with going to socialism. I would say that it’s the capitalism, the removal of capitalism is the problem there. If copyright was only 10 years old, that’s all you’ve got…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
There would be “Star Wars” films by non-George Lucas people right now and they might be good.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Someone like Joss Whedon could’ve done a “Star Wars” film. It might kick ass, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And people would have forgotten all about George Lucas. Fuck him, right?
Jeff:
It might not even have to be time. It’s like, time divided by the amount…
Casey:
Money…
Jeff:
Of money you’ve extracted, right? So it’s like, “Hey, it’s 70 years,” if you made something that nobody gives a shit about…
Casey:
Right, right.
Jeff:
If you change the world, you get 10 billion Dollars…
Casey:
Yeah. That’s it.
Jeff:
Well, no… Well, by exporting our culture…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
We are exporting democracy and that in a subversive way…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
Now, Mike… I’ve had… Mike would…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Mike’s very interesting to talk with about this because he doesn’t believe we’ve exported anything of that. He says we’ve exported consumerism which is completely different. He says we can have a nation of consumers that are under communist control…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Forever and there’s absolutely no problem. And that’s the argument that says that, like, “Hey…” You know, my argument’s always been just get MTV in a country and give it 20 years and they’ll come around.
Casey:
Right. Yeah.
Jeff:
But it’s true that doing that might just make them into consumers. They might look like us. They might not dress like us. They may value the same personalities and goals…
Casey:
Yeah, they all love the Zohan and Jerry Louis…
Jeff:
But they don’t necessarily believe in the things that make freedom freedom like… Like…
Casey:
But I don’t know about that, Jeff. The weird part about that, though, is everybody believes in the things that make freedom freedom. You read that constantly which is kind of interesting, right?
Jeff:
No, no. Totally.
Casey:
It’s not… That’s not the interesting thing about exporting culture. Exporting culture is not about trying to convince people that it’s a good idea to be free because they all believe that.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
The interesting thing about exporting culture is exporting systems which end up allowing that to occur, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That’s the only interesting part of it because everybody would like to be free. It’s just that not all societies are set up to be able to have that happen, right?
Jeff:
Right. Right.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
Well, that…
Casey:
That’s the problem. And so, it’s… That’s the question, right, is the consumer aspect of that, I think is actually somewhat powerful. Like, maybe Mike is somehow suggesting that it’s not. But I don’t necessarily agree with that like… Because in general, if you give the powerful people of your nation the ability to still have money and wealth without the need to oppress people in a direct physical way, oftentimes, they’ll take it.
Jeff:
Well, sure. But…
Casey:
Which is a good thing because then, you end up with just rich corporation people with yachts and shit (which is what we have in this country) instead of, like, military dictators who shoot you.
Jeff:
But consumerism does not necessarily mean that you get the best and the brightest getting the money. It means that the people who get the money…
Casey:
Sure…
Jeff:
It just means that whatever money people get…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
They spend, right? It goes to buying shit they don’t need, basically.
Casey:
But that’s okay I guess is what I’m saying.
Jeff:
Maybe. I just don’t know if that necessarily equals democracy or better living conditions at the end. That’s… I’m not saying…
Casey:
We are living in a country that is proof that it doesn’t…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So I’m not arguing that. What I’m saying is that your personal feeling of freedom is satisfied very well if you can decide whether or not to buy an iPod or Zune, right? At that point… Or whether you’re gonna have a McDonalds or Burger King hamburger, okay?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Your life still sucks but you don’t feel it as much.
Jeff:
Well, I think…
Casey:
And it’s fine. You see what I’m saying?
Jeff:
Well, my opinion is that’s not real. Like, he said…
Casey:
Of course, it’s not real.
Jeff:
Right, but…
Casey:
But it’s the best thing going right now.
Jeff:
Well, you could say that, like, for a Chinese citizen that’s… If they bypass… If they go right into just, “Hey, we are consumers and we are free to choose what we purchase…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“But we’re not free to… You know, we don’t have freedom of religion. We don’t have freedom of speech. We don’t have the ability to read what we want on the internet…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Then, what you’ve done is just placated the masses and guaranteed that that country will be run by communists forever and ever and ever, right?
Casey:
But that’s exactly what we have here.
Jeff:
No, I’m not saying it isn’t…
Casey:
100% across the board…
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
Like the only…
Jeff:
Well, there are…
Casey:
The difference is… The main difference is what things you and I assume or rather ignore that are the things you don’t get, right?
Jeff:
Yeah, sure.
Casey:
It’s like, you don’t have freedom of religion in America.
Jeff:
Well, no, that’s not true…
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
You can’t say…
Casey:
It’s like…
Jeff:
No, no, no… If you’re comparing America to China, then obviously, there are big, massive differences, right? I mean, being in China is kind of as if all of the prisons were like Guatanamo.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I mean, we have pockets of corner cases. But in general… Like, our first amendment is stronger than anywhere in the world, still, right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, our freedom of speech is better than fucking Britain’s, right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, it’s better than almost any…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And so, there are… It’s not that… You can say that there are places that America that certainly has gonna backwards in the last, you know, 20 years, probably…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Right? Like, it hasn’t just been Republicans. It’s been going that way for a long time.
Casey:
Well, I’m… Let me just give you an example, right, because there’s always going to be… Obviously, there are things… You could line up all your countries and go, “What are the pros and cons of all the things here?” Right? And like, X has better this, Y has better that, right? It’s like you go to Singapore, and it’s all fine except they found you with some marijuana so they shoot you, right? Like, these are bad things or whatever, right? But the example that I’m trying to or rather an example of what I’m trying to illustrate is, for example, at least let’s say 10 years ago, right, if you were in China, right, and you fucking copied all of your friend’s music collection over the internet, right, no one gives a fuck, okay. You can just do that. It’s free, okay?
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
End of story. You can sell it on the street, on a DVD, for 10 bucks. The police will never arrest you, okay?
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
Here, you do that, you go to jail. You get fined $250,000. Okay?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s just an example of what is free in some places and what is not free in some places.
Jeff:
Right, but I guess…
Casey:
So you live with restrictions every day that, if someone from the outside looked at it, they’d go, “That’s really fucked up,” right?
Jeff:
Well, I guess… Sure, I guess what I’m saying is there is a list of freedoms that I think are… You could prioritize…
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
And like, hey, I have been as grumpy about the way America’s being over the last 20 years anyway, right?
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
We talked about fucking Finland last week, right?
Casey:
Right, right. Yeah.
Jeff:
But at the same time, if we’re saying like, compared to some of the places that were suggesting that, “Oh, we don’t need to have sanctions on China because we’re going to export our culture there and then we win,” if they go straight from where they are now to a moderately developed country, skipping right past everything just to being consumers, then I think that they’ve lost some things that are very important. Like, I would rather go to jail for copying music than being able to write a letter to the editor if I felt like it.
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
Now, I don’t do those things and I do copy music…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So like, in one case, I actually could go to jail…
Casey:
Yeah, which is funny. Yeah.
Jeff:
Right, which is funny. However, it’s something that, like… I think that most people would have the similar priorities that’s like, I would be willing to bend over for Hollywood for the ability to, if I wanted to, be able to say that Bush is a cunt because he is, right? And that’s the deal.
Casey:
Right. Well, here’s the thing, right, again… And I’m not advocating, like, “Let’s move to China.” I don’t want to live in China.
Jeff:
No, I think I understand what you’re saying.
Casey:
But I’m just trying to get across the fact that freedom or the illusion of control, right…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You don’t actually have… I would argue that you don’t really have any more control here than you would have in China, assuming you were Chinese, right? You’re a wealthy businessman, okay. At the end of the day, if you move to China, you may be actually would have been someone who was in the political rankings. You might have more control, okay.
Jeff:
I don’t know.
Casey:
I don’t know. But my point is simply that, like, systems are set up such that there actually are only a very few ways in which control and influence gets exerted. And the myth that here in the United States, you writing a letter to the editor is gonna do jack shit to influence what this country is doing is silly…
Jeff:
No, no. I don’t expect it to…
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
Right, no. It shouldn’t…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It shouldn’t influence… Like, crackpots shouldn’t…
Casey:
Well, I’m just pointing it out, right?
Jeff:
But it should be able to be done. Like, it doesn’t matter how…
Casey:
But what’s the… Right. It’s an illusion then, right, that, “Okay, so you can do it.” Why is it a valuable freedom if it has no effect?
Jeff:
Because it’s yours. It’s yours. You were able to do it. You were able to exercise that in that way that, like, “So what, maybe it doesn’t change it but I’m allowed to say it. I’m allowed to have an idea that…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“That whether it’s followed by anybody or not, I’m still allowed to have it.” And that’s important. That’s a big fucking deal. I think it’s a big fucking deal to everybody.
Casey:
Well, no one’s arguing that you have the ability to have it. It’s whether you have the ability to say it, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That’s a huge deal. Even, like… I’m just saying, like…
Casey:
And again…
Jeff:
I’m not disagreeing…
Casey:
Is it actually true? Who will hear it? Can you… You’re never gonna get it… If it’s an unpopular idea, you won’t even be able to get it into a newspaper or, for example, a magazine or, God forbid, a television program.
Jeff:
Or, say, the internet which you can put up any crazy thing that you want there. But when you live behind, like, the great firewall of China…
Casey:
That’s true. Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s like, “Well, the only way to do this is to, somehow backdoor encrypt it to get it through to Yahoo who will turn you over to the police if they’re…” You know, it’s just… I mean, I’m not saying… I think that life in China is probably a thousand times better than it was even 10 years ago.
Casey:
Probably true. And I don’t doubt that I would like dislike things about their country much more than here, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I don’t doubt that at all. I’m just saying that sometimes, when people do these comparisons, it’s very much like when you and I do like Mac and Windows, right? It’s like the only reason that we like Windows better, really, at this point is ‘cos we know…
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
The things that are fucked up about it. And we forgot about them, right?
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
And I imagine that the same is true of really this country versus a lot of other countries is that, like, yes, there are a bunch of fucked up things about other countries. China may be a bad example because they may be more fucked up than most…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But at the end of the day, our country is pretty severely fucked up in a lot of ways even in ways that most people claim it is not…
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
And we just know what they fucking are and don’t expect anything of them, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So like, yeah, I don’t expect my next president to be intelligent or interesting or have a way of solving any real meaningful problem or appoint a reasonable Cabinet or know anything about the judiciary or maybe even know anything about the history of the United States, for starters…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I don’t expect that, right? And somehow, that doesn’t make me think that things are beyond fucked up…
Jeff:
Right. No…
Casey:
How is that possible, like, when you think of it?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
When you think of it in your head, right…
Jeff:
Well, because…
Casey:
How is that possible? How did we get to that point?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Where you can have…
Jeff:
Well, I actually have an…
Casey:
People who are ridiculously ignorant about all sorts of things…
Jeff:
Well, that’s…
Casey:
And who obviously don’t have our best interests in mind and who don’t even claim to… And that’s fine. And you’re gonna get to choose between 3 or 4 of those people…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Of which you know only 2 can win.
Jeff:
Well, I think…
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
Right. I think… Yeah, I mean, that’s the illusion of control that you have in [inaudible 48:29]
Casey:
That’s exactly what I’m talking about.
Jeff:
But I…
Casey:
So, it’s like, at some level, it’s like, “Okay. Thank you for giving me the illusion of control. If I was in China, I wouldn’t get to vote at all…”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But at some level, we have to remember that, while not being able to vote is bad, not being able to vote for anyone you want is only slightly better.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s basically the potential to someday be good whereas both of them are currently terrible.
Jeff:
Right. I think it’s… I agree with you that it’s not as good as it can be. I think in the spectrum, not voting, being able to vote for a small number of people and being able to vote for whoever like a better system, I think those 2 are close together, not “not voting” and having few choices.
Casey:
But it’s not the number of choices. It’s the quality of the choices.
Jeff:
I’m saying…
Casey:
That’s the problem.
Jeff:
I’m saying the difference between being able to not vote and being able to vote for the idiots that we get to vote for now…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is vast, in my opinion.
Casey:
I don’t think I agree with you, actually. And the reason that I don’t agree with you…
Jeff:
I know. It sounds like you don’t but I think it’s you…
Casey:
Let’s say we went to China right now and somehow magically were put in control, right, and we’re like, “We’re holding elections. There’s gonna be elections every 4 years in November.”And it comes to elections and we’re like, “You get to elect this dude from the Communist party or this dude from the Communist party. Your choice.”
Jeff:
It’s exactly like Russia.
Casey:
And that ends up… Right? It’s like, that’s basically what we have. You can take your pick. You can have somebody who’s going to fuck up your financial system, randomly do crazy shit across the world that you won’t hear about and that you don’t even get to see before it happens, right, and who will leave in either 4 or 8 years with a complete mess…
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
Or another guy who will…
Jeff:
Mmhmmm…
Casey:
Great. Thank you for that choice. I’m so excited to go to the polls and pick which person I want to fuck my shit up for me.
Jeff:
Sure. I don’t disagree but I think it’s silly…
Casey:
“Who would you like to hit you over the head? You can vote for this dude…”
Jeff:
Wait, wait, wait. But I think it’s important to say that, like, the world would not be better now if Gore had won instead of Bush. I think it’s impo--… I think it’s pretty…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I think it’s impossible to… I guess what I’m saying is no matter what you believe on, like, “Hey, my vote does… Voting doesn’t matter because they’re both idiots…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is true… Last time, that wasn’t the case, I don’t think. We actually had someone that was a bad choice. Period.
Casey:
True.
Jeff:
And so…
Casey:
That is true. It is also true that that’s kind of counterfactual, right? I mean, let’s remind ourselves that, like, you know, John F. Kennedy was one of our worst presidents…
Jeff:
Yeah, I agree…
Casey:
For getting us into foreign engagements…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Young Democrat, everyone thinks he’s awesome, okay? So the counterfactual is hard to say. Who knows what the fuck Al Gore would have done? Maybe he would have gone to war with China to stop fucking carbon emissions, okay. I don’t know.
Jeff:
Right. I think…
Casey:
We really just don’t know. It’s hard to say. It’s hard to imagine a president worse than Bush…
Jeff:
I think that’s the thing that I would say. I just like…
Casey:
Doesn’t mean it was gonna be a big enough improvement to actually say that it mattered. That’s all.
Jeff:
I think we had an experiment for the last 8 years where we said, “Does it matter…”
Casey:
“How bad your president is…”
Jeff:
“How bad your president is…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And I think we said yes, it does because I always said that, like, there is no willpower in the presidency.
Casey:
Yes, you do. Yeah. You said to me once as long as Alan Greenspan is still in charge, we’re fine.
Jeff:
Because…
Casey:
That is what you said to me.
Jeff:
Right. Because it’s like, all he does is keep things level…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, let’s not have any disruptions in the financials, right?
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And… What was I gonna say… The last 8 years, I’ve improved…
Casey:
But you’ve decided you’ve changed your mind. You decided that was not true?
Jeff:
Well, we…
Casey:
Or is it that Alan Greenspan retired and that’s what you’re worried about? You’re like…
Jeff:
No, no, no, no, no…
Casey:
“Oh, man. Alan Greenspan’s gone.”
Jeff:
The more we find out about Alan Greenspan, the worse…
Casey:
The worse…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Yeah. So you thought he was good because you hadn’t read much about it at the time. And now, you have. You’re like, “Uh…”
Jeff:
Well, no. It’s not “read about it”. It’s just that he was able to keep the markets reasonably smooth. It’s just you don’t know the price he’s paying for doing that.
Casey:
Yeah. Until now…
Jeff:
And it’s difficult to find…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Well, I mean, until things, like… And that’s like, hey, that is one of the powers of the internet and one of the powers of some of the freedoms that we have is the fact that you’re able to see things like shadow stats now to where you’re like, “Shit, our real inflation is way worse than we ever thought.”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Like, we’re way more fucked than we were 10 years ago.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And we just don’t know. So you think Alan Greenspan is doing a good job and it really isn’t. And you end up… You also…
Casey:
So let’s drill down on that for a second, though, just because I’m refusing to actually relinquish this sort of comparison, if will, which is that what is the actual difference, right? So people like you and me know what the actual inflation is or what the estimate is because we can’t actually know ‘cos they stopped reporting the fucking figures, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
What difference does it make? That’s the beauty… That really is the beauty of a democracy in the terms of demented dark beauty which is that it allows you to have the illusion of freedom of speech and freedom of communication mattering when they know that they’re not at risk because the other 90% of the voting public never finds this out or doesn’t understand it. So it doesn’t matter.
Jeff:
No, I think it always does matter because I think that…
Casey:
How does it matter?
Jeff:
Because I think those things are like… It’s like a train moving.
Casey:
So it’s just gonna take a while.
Jeff:
It just takes a while. And, I mean, if you think about people right now who don’t really have an expectation of privacy, right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like… But it’s important to us.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, all it’s going to take is another 10-15 years of the way things are now for them to realize how bad that was. And people are already starting to go…
Casey:
What are we talking about? The Patry Act? What are we talking about here? Be specific.
Jeff:
No, like… It’s not just like a particular thing like… What you saying?
Casey:
Just put your microphone towards you.
Jeff:
No, no. I’m kind of… I lean back so I don’t cough right into it.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
But no, what I’m saying is it’s not a particular act of any kind.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s the fact that having an expectation of privacy wasn’t an issue 15 years ago because there weren’t these vast computer systems that are all interconnected, that are all completely insecure because people are dumb, right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So, no one really under… There was no… You don’t have to worry about signing some privacy paper when you went to the doctor because the only way they could leak your information is if your doctor was told by you to email or to physically mail it to somewhere else, right? So what I’m saying is people catch on…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
But now, because of things like identity theft and stuff like that, like, they have found ways to appeal to the soccer moms…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And that is actually something that both candidates speak to now. Like whether privacy… The amount of privacy people have versus the amount of… Versus the amount of control and safety that people expect from harm, right? Like, when people are saying that, “Oh, the government should be able to tap all of our phones because I’ve got nothing that they can’t listen to,” right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, [inaudible 56:01] about is doing… There are people saying something bad, right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And that’s not remotely true. And you don’t learn that until you see counterexamples.
Casey:
I’m just not sure I understand what you’re talking about because we’ve had counterexamples for 75 years of the government tapping your phones. So I’m not sure why you’re suggesting that somehow, now, people are seeing that it’s a problem…
Jeff:
Well, no…
Casey:
It’s been a problem since fucking 1940.
Jeff:
It wasn’t a thing that you asked you candidate about until recently because, like, yes, they kept dossiers on people. But, like, they didn’t keep them in a vast inter--… Like, it’s a much big…
Casey:
What the fuck difference does that make?
Jeff:
It’s a huge difference. The difference between the government being able to share your stuff down to a local level…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Is a huge, huge difference. In fact, Kung Fu master Bruce Schneider has a lot of really good essays about the difference between…
Casey:
What the fuck? Where did that come from?
Jeff:
You know, there’s the a…
Casey:
Kung Fu master Bruce Schneider?
Jeff:
You know, all the…
Casey:
Has a lot of good things to say about privacy?
Jeff:
Yes, lots of good stuff about the difference between something being insecure that’s connected and all…
Casey:
Why is it Kung Fu master Bruce Schneider? Who is this guy?
Jeff:
Bruce Schneider the security dude.
Casey:
Oh, God… I thought you were talking about someone who actually teaches Kung Fu in a dojo…
Jeff:
No, no, no. No.
Casey:
I’m like, “Are you fucking kidding me? Is this another one of your celebrity websites that you go to?”
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Okay. Alright, continue. Sorry. I was confused there.
Jeff:
Anyway, he has some good essays about the difference between insecure things on the large and insecure things on the small and the difference…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And the reason why these are becoming issues now even though we’ve had system of backdoor…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Espionage on our own people for a long time.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And there is a difference. And I’ll send you those…
Casey:
I agree with you that is difference. What I was trying to say was that we have had consistent high-profile, public examples of surveillance being bad for 75 years. And it has not been solved.
Jeff:
But it’s never been personal. It has to appeal to the soccer moms until you can say… And we have a way to appeal to soccer moms . And that’s the meth heads intercepting your mail.
Casey:
So you’re saying that as long as you can say something, like, “The government is bugging your house, personally” is not gonna change. That’s what you’re saying.
Jeff:
Until you can say that it could happen to me…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Versus “it just happens to the bad people”…
Casey:
And you think…
Jeff:
Once it’s personal…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
Because now, both McLaine and Obama both come out and said what their private… Like, where they are in the spectrum of control versus personal privacy.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And that wasn’t even in 2004, right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That wasn’t an issue then. So I mean, it is changing.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Things just change as people… I mean, my mom…
Casey:
I agree with you that if you can somehow scare people into the thing, right… But I guess people have no power of analogy (which scares me sometimes). It’s like, how you can’t see a situation that is clear and repeatable and happened many times and go, “This could happen to anyone.” How you can’t make that connection in your head…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Kind of blows my mind but no one makes it. They’re like, “Oh, well, you know, they tapped fucking Martin Luther King, Jr.’s phone. Do you think he was a bad dude?” You know?
Jeff:
Well, actually, the way to look at it…
Casey:
Fuck you.
Jeff:
Is that’s always been the job of the journalist is to make analogies for people to take something that’s happening in the world and then apply it…
Casey:
And make it personal…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But journalism…
Casey:
Don’t do that anymore?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Because it’s not a goo--… And unless the person that it’s happening to is gorgeous or pretty or, like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You can turn it into a human interest story…
Casey:
Actually… Let’s…
Jeff:
It’s a different thing.
Casey:
Okay. Wait a minute, though, because I think you’ve got something here.
Jeff:
I’ve got something. It’s the cough.
Casey:
I mean, not medical condition. I think you’ve got an idea which is — Is it possible for us to effect political change by getting hot people in some kind of trouble with the government? Okay?
Jeff:
Well…
Casey:
Attractive, non-celebrity individuals, okay…
Jeff:
Well, let me put it…
Casey:
In some climate where they’re not wearing a lot of clothing…
Jeff:
Let me give you an example…
Casey:
Like David Hasselhoff dudes and biki--…
Jeff:
Let me give you an example.
Casey:
What?
Jeff:
I can give you an exact example from the headlines yesterday.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So hit me.
Jeff:
There is an organization and I can’t remember right now but they’re called… Fuck… But I think they’re called the, like, “Pro Men”…
Casey:
Pro Men?
Jeff:
Yeah. And what they do is they’re an organization that battles against men that have been wrongly accused of sexual assault…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Or date rape…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Or any number of things…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And they pick things like, “Oh, hey, this lady lied to this man, said she was pregnant with his baby. It was really not his baby. He raised him for 10 years. He’s paid alimony on the kid for 15 years…”
Casey:
Right. Okay.
Jeff:
He finds out it’s not his kid and he’s like, “I want my money back.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And the judge rules against him.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
They’re an organization that aligns with these kinds of stories.
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
And you’re like, “Cry me a fucking river, you fucking turds,” right?
Casey:
Right, right. Okay.
Jeff:
They’re complete pieces of shit. Whatever. Right? R. Kelly, on Friday…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Remember?
Casey:
R. Kelly…
Jeff:
Was acquitted of his…
Casey:
Whatever the fuck… I don’t remember what it was but it was something complicated…
Jeff:
It was child… It was…
Casey:
Oh, solicitation of a minor or something?
Jeff:
Yeah, ‘cos he was… Apparently peeing on a 13-year old… In fact, there was…
Casey:
I don’t think it matters that you’re peeing, though…
Jeff:
Well…
Casey:
I’m guessing that the peeing is not the problem…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s the 13-year old.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
If you’re peeing on a 27-year old, probably not such a big deal…
Jeff:
Maybe not.
Casey:
I’m guessing…
Jeff:
Maybe not.
Casey:
It’s sterile. You can drink it. Gandhi drank it all the time.
Jeff:
I have… Ugh…
Casey:
Kevin Costner drinks it in the first five minutes of “Waterworld”. It can’t be that bad.
Jeff:
Yeah. But he had a contraption.
Casey:
Yeah. That’s a good point.
Jeff:
Anyway…
Casey:
Maybe Gandhi did, too.
Jeff:
Anyway, that was a celebrity got off on something that they felt he’d been wrongly accused of. So they were like…
Casey:
Now, why did they think that he was wrongly…
Jeff:
They were like…
Casey:
Did they…
Jeff:
No, wait…
Casey:
He never peed…
Jeff:
Wait, wait. Forget it.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
They’re not saying wrong or right. They saw this as famous person in a bad situation that got off…
Casey:
Ah…
Jeff:
So that’s what I’m saying. When you said famous hot people, they’re trying that strategy…
Casey:
R. Kelly…
Jeff:
They looked at it and said, “Here’s someone…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“That got off who, apparently since he was acquitted, was wrongly accused of peeing on a 13-year old.”
Casey:
I like it.
Jeff:
And they tried to use the story for themselves. So yes, people will do that.
Casey:
Now, I don’t…
Jeff:
I mean…
Casey:
I do not doubt for a minute…
Jeff:
We gotta watch the timing. We have 8 more minutes.
Casey:
Well, I’m assuming we would split the podcast. I’m assuming we just go…
Jeff:
No, no. We’re gonna break it.
Casey:
We’re gonna actually break?
Jeff:
Yeah, we’re gonna break…
Casey:
’Cos I’d say we just go as long as we want and then we split…
Jeff:
No…
Casey:
And we can post it in multiple parts if we need to.
Jeff:
No. We’re gonna finish this…
Casey:
Alright, then we need to end it. Just end it.
Jeff:
We’re gonna solve this problem…
Casey:
Let’s end it. End it now.
Jeff:
No, no, no. Finish your thought.
Casey:
What I was gonna say is I don’t doubt the fact that there are people who would claim that R. Kelly sexually abused them or God knows what the fuck else.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I don’t… I would not put that past someone at all. I’m sure it happens all the time. Okay. On the other hand, I do find it slightly hard to believe that they would end up making up a story about him peeing on them. But I guess it’s possible, too. I guess I don’t know. Maybe… I mean, I guess maybe the theory is if I’m gonna do this, come up with something so outlandish that no one would think I was making it up, right? That’s a good strategy. I doubt these people are that smart ‘cos if they were, they wouldn’t be trying to [inaudible 64:09] R. Kelly…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They’d just go do something and make money, right?
Jeff:
Well, apparently, most of the people…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That had any opinion that would be worthwhile on this…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Were surprised that he got off. So apparently…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
Your theory is fairly right…
Casey:
Is correct.
Jeff:
The one thing is the 13-year old that appeared in the video…
Casey:
Oh, this is someone who’s appeared in one of his videos…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
That he peed on?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
But not in the video…
Jeff:
Right, right…
Casey:
’Cos that would have been fairly incontrovertible evidence…
Jeff:
Actually, interesting… No, she actually also appeared in… One of the women in the… So there were… This was 3 people…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
2 women and a girl. One was underage. One was 18, who… That girl actually appeared in the video [inaudible 64:54]
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
She actually appeared at the trial and said it was her and said the other girl was underage and dadadada… The young girl that was in it, the 13-year old that they claim is her…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
She says it’s not her which apparently was the weakness of the case is…
Casey:
Oh, she folded…
Jeff:
They believe she was somehow bought off or…
Casey:
So R. Kelly was like, “I’ll tell you what, you can come on my private yacht any time you want and I won’t even pee on you if you just don’t…”
Jeff:
Maybe. Who knows what happened. Anyway, the prosecution believes that happened but they can’t prove it. But anyway, he’s acquitted and now this other…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
These complete cocks that think that the problem most worth solving in the world is man being sexually discriminated against? You’re like, “What the fuck is wrong with you people?” Seriously, if that’s what you think the biggest problem is, I’ve got news for you. It ain’t.
Casey:
Well, it’s not what you think the biggest problem is. It’s, “Do you think there’s a problem?”
Jeff:
I’m just…
Casey:
Right? Who cares how big the problem is, right? If they think there’s a problem, they have a legitimate interest in solving it. They are men, are they not? Are we not men?
Jeff:
Are we not men? They’re men.
Casey:
That’s what their organization should be called, “Are we not men?”
Jeff:
I want to look… I can’t remember… They actually have a funny name…
Casey:
The AWNM…
Jeff:
They’re like the Family Man Association or…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
You now, they have one of those…
Casey:
Right, it’s an Orwellian phrase, right?
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
Yeah. Like, focus on the family or something like this.
Jeff:
Alright. I’m gonna hit one thing that’s related to this…
Casey:
No, that’s it we’re out of time.
Jeff:
No…
Casey:
No, we are out of time.
Jeff:
Oh, cock. Alright.
Casey:
So we’ll start podcast with something related to what Jeff and I were just talking about next time…
Jeff:
Which they’ll hear in a week. Yes. Alright, so thanks for listening, everybody.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
Please…
Casey:
Please let this podcast… We’re now gonna wave a dead chicken as sacrifice to the God of computing…
Jeff:
That this works.
Casey:
That this fucking recorded and that we both sound normal and everything else.
Jeff:
And then…
Casey:
It has not been our day.
Jeff:
Email us at Podcast@MollyRocket.com…
Casey:
Podcast@MollyRocket.com… And tell us who you have sent the podcast to.
Jeff:
Right. Everybody must tell some other person…
Casey:
That’s right.
Jeff:
Because we want…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
We’re gonna go over a thousand downloads…
Casey:
And next week, we’ll do the “tell someone and tell them to tell someone”.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And then we’ll really start hitting the exponential curve.
Jeff:
Yeah. That’s what it’s all about. Well, thanks, everybody. And we will see you next week.
Casey:
See you next week.
Jeff:
Okay. Bye.
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casey muratori
the jeff and casey show - season 1 - episode 16
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