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The Technician
No Imperfections Noted
The Jeff and Casey Show
Jeff and Casey Time
Casey Muratori
Seattle, WA
Putting Odor Back Into Communication
"Here's the girl that's going to come out of the cake."
Original air date: May 11th, 2008
Topics. Politics: Then and now. Hillary Clinton, the horse. MegaTimer incompetence. Cross-eyed PETA Pam Anderson. Strong passwords. Cirque du Soleil HIV. 2K:XP::XP:Vista. Fox:Republicans::SlashDot:Techies. Vista bluescreen. SMS smells. Microsoft and patents. Failed game peripherals. The Peter Programmer Principle. Casual game math.
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Transcript
Casey:
Awesome. Have you ever started the MegaTimer and not had it go wrong?
Jeff:
Yeah…
Casey:
Have you ever done it?
Jeff:
Yeah, I’m getting close. That was only 2 beeps.
Casey:
Preschool teachers. This is a device for preschool teachers and you have not managed to use it successfully…
Jeff:
There’s a lot of buttons on the MegaTimer.
Casey:
And you don’t even… You haven’t been able to use any of the other functions, either. You’ve only figured out how to use one of its operations and you have not been able to do that consistently. And this is a preschool device?
Jeff:
I don’t know what the rest of the buttons do.
Casey:
What is the problem?
Jeff:
I can tell you that it’s 74 degrees.
Casey:
Okay. Now you just did it again. Now you’ve lost the time.
Jeff:
Oh, you’re right. Shit.
Casey:
Now, you gotta start… ‘Cos you did this once before. You showed me… You were excited about telling me what temperature it was and you lost how much time had gone by.
Jeff:
Yeah, we lost that time.
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
It’s 74 degrees.
Casey:
Yeah, it’s not so mega…
Jeff:
So hey…
Casey:
Back to the podcast.
Jeff:
Welcome to the Jeff & Casey Show.
Casey:
Hello.
Jeff:
Part 2 of the poodcast.
Casey:
If you haven’t listened to part 1, it was riveting.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It was exciting.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Go back and listen to it right now and make sure you’re prepared…
Jeff:
Our caffeine has not worn off.
Casey:
It has not worn off.
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
I am fucking seeing stars over here.
Jeff:
That’s the problem.
Casey:
It’s the caffeine talking.
Jeff:
It’s the poodcast.
Casey:
It’s the caffeine talking.
Jeff:
It is a poodcast and we’re ready to drop that 30-pound load right in your ears.
Casey:
Drop 36-pound load.
Jeff:
What did I call it?
Casey:
30-pound.
Jeff:
30-pound? Yeah, that’s true, 36…
Casey:
36. You missed an extra 6 pounds.
Jeff:
That’s true. That’s totally true.
Casey:
I’d say where I got my extra 6 pounds, bitch. Oh, yeah.
Jeff:
Oh, yeah. So hey, I was going to… I wanted to talk about something that I noticed looking at some old emails recently.
Casey:
Alright. Why are we looking at old emails?
Jeff:
I was looking for… I was actually looking for a password to [ pair ] back in the day because my renewal of one of my domains… It had been 5 years…
Casey:
Oh, God.
Jeff:
So I had to buy another site. So I found it. And the emails I was looking at was right in the middle of when we were moving from Win2K to XP.
Casey:
You know, what, pause.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Just pause right there.
Jeff:
Pausing.
Casey:
So, I would like to know…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Why you bother password-protecting anything when the only way that you ever successfully log into a machine is by trying random words until something works. And your likelihood seems to be no greater than an attacker’s would be, right?
Jeff:
Sometimes I forget. That’s all.
Casey:
I mean, I don’t want to give away too much here.
Jeff:
No. These are sophisticated passwords.
Casey:
But these passwords… I know some of these passwords, okay.
Jeff:
No… Well, okay…
Casey:
Someone is going to be owning RAD.net soon because you thought, like introducing an underscore in the middle of the word “lettuce” would make it completely impossible to break.
Jeff:
Mine are sophisticated. No, it’s true. But I…
Casey:
It’s like that little bar that’s, like, password strength, it goes…
Jeff:
Here’s the reason why it’s gonna be hard to break.
Casey:
And still, here’s the thing, though. It’s lettuce where it’s like let_tuce or something, that was the big thing. It’s like, “It’s lettuce with an underscore in it.” And then, it’s like, you can’t remember that. It’s like, forget it.
Jeff:
Well, that’s…
Casey:
It’s like, 2 months from now, it’s like…
Jeff:
That’s exactly…
Casey:
“Oh, man. Was it… Was it a fruit? I think it was a fruit. Maybe it was strawberry. You had that allergic reaction strawberries…”
Jeff:
It was strawberry.
Casey:
“It’s straw_berry.”
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
And you try typing that in. And you’re like, “straw_berry1? straw_berry2? Fuck.”
Jeff:
It always… The problem… See, I think that’s good because that means that if I can outfox myself with all my random passwords…
Casey:
No. No.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Because somebody’s just running a dictionary crack on there that’s going to find this shit…
Jeff:
No, because that’s never dictionary.
Casey:
Way faster than you because what you’re doing is you’re running a manual brute force search. So if you ever get into the machine…
Jeff:
No…
Casey:
The hacker could’ve gotten in a long time ago. If you don’t get into it, then sure, the hacker can’t get into it either, maybe…
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
But then at that point, what have you done? You could’ve just not stored the data and it would’ve been the same situation because you can’t get it either.
Jeff:
It’s good action.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
At any case, the password I found didn’t work and I had to say I forgot my password and then it… Yeah.
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
But I got it. But at the timeframe, we were ranting. It was a long…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I noticed because when you scroll down through the folder, there’s this big chunk with the same subject header…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It was you the and John and we were ranting about how bad XP is. We were all in Win2K…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
We’re like, “We’re not switching to that shit. They’ve fucked up…”
Casey:
They’ve fucked up everything.
Jeff:
You have to get a validated…
Casey:
Oh, the validation is such cock.
Jeff:
And…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You know, the display drivers don’t work and all this…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And we were just like…
Casey:
All of which was true.
Jeff:
Yeah. No, totally.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The thing is, now we all use XP…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And we’re like, “I’m never using Vista. It’s fucked up…”
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
So it took Vista sucking so hard…
Casey:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeff:
To make us appreciate the sucky but not so suckiness of XP…
Casey:
Okay. This is Microsoft’s corporate strategy, okay. They have not… These emails haven’t leaked and Steve Ballmer hasn’t gotten up and said so but I guarantee you, somewhere, there is a strategy email. And it says, “Subject: Give them an inch, they’ll take a mile. Take away an inch and all they want is their inch back.” Right? That is, like, on the top of the thing. And they’re like, “We can deliver a product with improvements and then people are just gonna come ask for fucking improvements. But we come out with something shittier than the thing we already shipped and all they’re gonna want to do is keep buying that thing.” And it works. There’s like a public campaign to get Microsoft…
Jeff:
To keep…
Casey:
To keep shipping XP.
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
This is Coke/New Coke. It’s like, “Hey, we introduced a new product that nobody wants.” And people, like… There’s this huge public relations boost for our own shitty product, right?
Jeff:
Well, no, it would be Coke/New Coke…
Casey:
That’s what this is.
Jeff:
And then Newer Coke that’s even awful-er…
Casey:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeff:
Than New Coke.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And then, that’s… Everyone just goes back to New Coke.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
No, so I’m just… My thing is…
Casey:
’Cos it’s been one downhill stair stepping…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Since MT351. It was like, 351, good operating system. Dave Cutler still wrote, like, a bunch of code. There’s, like, 8 guys who wrote this operating system, right? And most of them (or maybe even all of them) knew what they were doing. From then on, it was like every fucking version, “Let’s see what else we can fuck.”
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
“Let’s put GDI in the kernel. That’ll be awesome.”
Jeff:
“Let’s put it out of the kernel.”
Casey:
“Oh, let’s merge… Let’s move it back out of the kernel. Woohoo! Let’s make it so that you could click a button to move GDI in and out of the kernel all day long. It’s gonna be great.” Then they’re like, “You know what, let’s take care of the sound driver thing. Let’s make it so all the apps share one mixer. Oh, fuck. Well, let’s introduce the new thing that lets an app take control of the mixer so it can be the only thing with the mixer. Okay, wait. No. back it up. Back, back. Wait. I got it. Guys, what we need is a new driver model.”
Jeff:
“That’s right.”
Casey:
“’Cos that’s gonna fix everything.”
Jeff:
“We’ll write all the code. It’ll fix everything.” So yeah, my only thing was, like…
Casey:
It’s just… Why do we live in this world?
Jeff:
How bad…
Casey:
What is going on?
Jeff:
How bad is the next windows going to be to get us to upgrade to Vista.
Casey:
I don’t even want to know.
Jeff:
It’s just going to…
Casey:
I do not want to know.
Jeff:
It will melt your computer down on installation and will go… At least it’s… You know, Vista’s…
Casey:
At least it melts it at a controlled temperature.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You know? It doesn’t melt it down in this big ball of flames.
Jeff:
Yeah, so Vista… What’s coming is gonna be even more awesome.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Yeah. So… I got my mom Vista ‘cos it came with her laptop.
Casey:
Yeah, you told us about this.
Jeff:
Yeah. I got it on… I don’t… Did we ever do the story of the device driver issues? I don’t think so.
Casey:
I don’t know.
Jeff:
So…
Casey:
You told me about it, I’ll tell you that. Yeah.
Jeff:
I got it there.
Casey:
The printer?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Was the printer… No, what were you trying to do?
Jeff:
Everything.
Casey:
Okay. Anything? Doesn’t matter what?
Jeff:
Yeah, anything. Anything.
Casey:
[ Yeah, and you get the ] Vista.
Jeff:
She had her old shitty Compaq running XP. It ran fine. I said, “You know what, I’ll get you a new computer. I’ll get you a laptop…”
Casey:
So you can move it around.
Jeff:
“So you can move it around.”
Casey:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Move it up to the studio… She’s an artist…
Jeff:
Well, no, it…
Casey:
She can move it back and forth…
Jeff:
That was not the reason. I got her a laptop so if it ever broke…
Casey:
She’d mail it to you?
Jeff:
She’d put it in the box and mail it to me.
Casey:
That is smart. That is actually very smart.
Jeff:
Yeah, it was [inaudible 8:24] Right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So I got it but it had Vista on it. So I was like, “Ah, it’s mom. It’s not gonna be that bad. I could do it.” So I install it…
Casey:
Famous last words, Jeff.
Jeff:
Yep, get down there. I’m there for 2 days…
Casey:
Let me guess. Wait a minute. Stop it right there. And then you were like, “Oh, and maybe I’ll get her a Drobo, too.”
Jeff:
Stop it.
Casey:
So her drive will be backed up.
Jeff:
No, stop it.
Casey:
Did you get her one?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
Stop it.
Casey:
Okay. Keep going.
Jeff:
So, I go to install it, the printer doesn’t work. I go to Canon. “We are not planning on making printer drivers for Vista.” First off, why the fuck did the printer driver model change?
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Like, where were we having problems with printers?
Casey:
That is the amazing thing about Vista. It’s like, “Okay, tell me what was so integral and complicated about printer driving that you could not leave that the way it was?”
Jeff:
Yes, totally.
Casey:
What the fuck happened there?
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
You had 20 years of operating system revisions to get your driver right. And you had to break it…
Jeff:
Again…
Casey:
In your 21st?
Jeff:
Yeah, exactly.
Casey:
Are you fucking out of your mind?
Jeff:
So…
Casey:
It’s a printer!
Jeff:
So remember…
Casey:
Send it a bitmap…
Jeff:
I know!
Casey:
For fuck’s sake!
Jeff:
And that’s all. Don’t do anything.
Casey:
It doesn’t even have to be a driver. It could just look like a drive. You copy a BMP onto it and it prints that. It doesn’t even need to know it’s a printer.
Jeff:
So I go get her a new printer because that’s all I could do. I get her a new printer. It’s wireless because…
Casey:
Oh, awesome. That’s a great…
Jeff:
I thought… Yeah. So that was a nightmare…
Casey:
’Cos I always want my printer to be wireless…
Jeff:
Yeah, that was a nightmare. So to install the printer, you have to plug it in first because you have to set the wireless settings. So you have to plug the printer into the USB to set the wireless settings, okay. So I’m like, “I’ll just leave it plugged in.” It doesn’t work if you leave it plugged in to the USB.
Casey:
It has to be wireless?
Jeff:
It has to be unplugged.
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
If you plug it in, it goes into setup mode and doesn’t do it.
Casey:
Wait. What if you don’t have a wireless card?
Jeff:
That’s it… That’s…
Casey:
So you can’t use the printer?
Jeff:
No. It’s wireless.
Casey:
It’s like, “No, I’m sorry. We do not have a way to communicate with this printer via a cable.”
Jeff:
Exactly. Right.
Casey:
Because that is fucking 20th century. 1995 called. They want their printer back. If you want to play with the big boys, you go wireless.
Jeff:
We called 1995 to get a printer driver set up…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And then we called them back and said, “Now, you can take it back fuckers…”
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
“Because we don’t need it anymore.”
Casey:
Support that shit.
Jeff:
So anyway… So her printer, in the meantime, has gone up and down a bunch of times…
Casey:
What is wrong with the world?
Jeff:
Because, like, if the power goes out…
Casey:
Oh, God. Yeah…
Jeff:
The blips that… Yeah, so she’s plugging it in. I’m walking her through [ the screen ]…
Casey:
It starts printing something from the neighbors who… They were transmitting… They connected to the wrong printer. You got some grandma’s porn shots that he was trying to… It’s like, “Oh, make it…” And you can’t… And you’re pushing the cancel button but it’s not listening to you.
Jeff:
And it’s going really slow…
Casey:
And it keeps coming. You’re like…
Jeff:
No, it’s inkjet so it’s like… So anyway, I get that. I then plug in her camera. Camera doesn’t work. There’s no camera driver. What is a driver for a camera? It’s a USB card.
Casey:
I know.
Jeff:
What the fuck?
Casey:
I’ve never understood that.
Jeff:
Yeah. I don’t understand how it’s… I didn’t even know there were…
Casey:
’Cos some cameras just look like a drive…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And you’re like, “Yes, that’s what it should be.” Other cameras are like… You plug it in and you’re like, “You’re gonna need to install Canon drivers for printer…”
Jeff:
Yes, exactly.
Casey:
And fax wizard or whatever…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
To transfer the camera… We’re like, “What?”
Jeff:
Yeah, it’s ridiculous. So I…
Casey:
Are you fucking crazy?
Jeff:
So we got a new printer. I mean, I got her a new camera. Got that working…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I’m there for 2 days. Like, a day and a half, I’ve been dealing with it.
Casey:
Oh, God.
Jeff:
So she uses her…
Casey:
Best vacation ever.
Jeff:
Yes. She uses her computer to print out shit out of Illustrator…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Take her pictures in that she takes at the beach.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And her last thing is she uses it to play PopCap games.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
Now remember, this is…
Casey:
So you failed on 2 of 3 already…
Jeff:
Yes, okay.
Casey:
Vista shat the bed.
Jeff:
Right. And so I’m like, “Okay, we’ll get…” You know…
Casey:
3rd time’s the charm…
Jeff:
Letter Fucker, whatever they make, right?
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Working.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Okay. So now remember, Vista has been… Took 6 years of development…
Casey:
As an aside, “Letter Fucker”? That is a game I want to play.
Jeff:
That’s a great game.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s awesome.
Casey:
It’s like Letter Linker but with only porn words or something.
Jeff:
All the letters are made of penises.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Anyway, so the game… I download them all. I get them all on to her computer, right? I install them all. Now remember, Vista’s been under development for, like, 5 or 6 years, right?
Casey:
Yeah, right. Yes.
Jeff:
And they changed the entire…
Casey:
It’s been a long time…
Jeff:
Right. And they changed…
Casey:
The longest product cycle for any Microsoft product…
Jeff:
Ever. Right.
Casey:
That I’ve ever known.
Jeff:
Right. And they changed the entire display model so that the display’s in user mode so that if it ever crashes, they can blip the power, restart the driver… The screen might flicker a bit but it’ll be back up. Everything’s fine.
Casey:
Which incidentally…
Jeff:
The device driver…
Casey:
Was what they started with…
Jeff:
Can’t crash. That’s their idea.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
That’s the plan.
Casey:
Supposedly.
Jeff:
They made the entire industry rewrite their drivers from scratch.
Casey:
That’s right. Yes.
Jeff:
To do this.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Okay? Start all over. I install Letter Fucker, a 2D game.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
A 2D motherfucking game…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
I go to run it. It tries to flip into, like, 800 by 600 mode…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And I know that’s exotic…
Casey:
Right, yeah.
Jeff:
Changing the video mode… It fucking bluescreens.
Casey:
Oh, yeah baby.
Jeff:
[ IRQ level ] not __ or whatever the fucking thing is…
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
And you’re like…
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
6 years. The entire graphics industry rewrites their driver to the point of, like, Intel still hasn’t finished their drivers, right, they’re still half assed…
Casey:
That is so awesome. I can’t even tell you.
Jeff:
And it crashes on a [ mode switch ]. It doesn’t restart the driver. It doesn’t keep going. It’s a bluescreen that locks up to change the mode into 800 by 600.
Casey:
So how did that happen?
Jeff:
I have no idea. I installed new drivers and it fixed it. I’m like, “This should be impossible.”
Casey:
So it was like the old drivers were running in an emulation mode that does not support restartability or something?
Jeff:
No. I have no idea. The point is there are kernel portions of a driver still. There has to be. There always will be. That can still crash.
Casey:
Un-fucking-real.
Jeff:
And your user driver can be in user mode. It can still make calls up to their own kernel processes…
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
There’s nothing to prevent them from doing that. They’re display driver. They have full access to the installation path. So I’m just like…
Casey:
Microsoft is going down. Like, they are… This stuff is going to have to catch up with them eventually…
Jeff:
You think it would.
Casey:
It’s going to have to.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Most monopolies fall. Most monopolies do not hang on forever.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s… You know, something happens.
Jeff:
The scary about this one is… Like, Microsoft patents a lot of shit. But they’ve always been pretty cool about it, right?
Casey:
But when they go down, they’re not gonna be cool about it anymore.
Jeff:
When they start going down… I’m scared to death of what happens.
Casey:
I agree with you.
Jeff:
It’s always when big companies start failing like [ Deck ], when they start having problems, they start being dicks to everybody in the industry…
Casey:
Absolutely.
Jeff:
Because they were once a great company…
Casey:
Absolutely.
Jeff:
And they weren’t when they started going down.
Casey:
Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. Because when you don’t need to sue for patents, it’s easy to be the nice guy, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But when you are losing money and you are unable to do anything new…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Your legal department’s like…
Jeff:
It’s bad action.
Casey:
“Well, you know what, we can sue for these things.” And someone on top goes, “Alright, do it.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You know, ‘cos…
Jeff:
Well, this…
Casey:
It’s disgusting. It’s really… Especially Microsoft who has really, you know… I mean…
Jeff:
Infinite resources to do cool things…
Casey:
Well, no. What I was gonna say is they’ve seen how bad software patents are, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I mean, nobody gets hit with more outlandish patent lawsuits than them…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right? I mean, I don’t think there’s anything but an outlandish software patent lawsuit, right. They’re all ridiculous.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
I’ve never seen any evidence that software patents have ever done anything good in the history of time.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
That said, there are definitely a range of outlandishness-es in the world, right? I mean, you sue over the Burrow’s wheeler transform… It’s a pretty clever idea. You sue over the idea that an application can be downloaded from the internet. Not so clever, right?
Jeff:
Not at the same class.
Casey:
Right. Exactly.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So while they are all, in my mind…
Jeff:
Ridiculous.
Casey:
Ridiculous… That’s not to say that they’re all…
Jeff:
There’s still a spectrum.
Casey:
Equally ridiculous.
Jeff:
Yes. I agree.
Casey:
And Microsoft has been hit with tons of ridiculous software patent lawsuits.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So you would hope that somehow, when they go down, they might be like, “No, ‘cos this is crap,” but I seriously doubt it because they’ve already turned their backs on us. They testified in front of Congress that they think it’s a good idea. How do you think it’s a good idea? All it’s done is lost you money.
Jeff:
Right, because…
Casey:
You’re just counting on the fact that later it’s gonna make you money because right now [ it sure as hell isn’t ].
Jeff:
I don’t think so. I think it works like this is it costs them money and they know it.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But what do they have that other people don’t?
Casey:
Right, right. Money.
Jeff:
Lots of fucking money.
Casey:
So it’s like, “Fine.”
Jeff:
It’s like, “Hey, fine. I’ll pay that…”
Casey:
Long as they sue other people, too. But the problem is they only seem to be suing them, you know?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
’Cos they’re like, “Well, we could go file a lawsuit but, fuck. We just got 500 billion Dollars or something from them, right, you know?
Jeff:
Yeah. It’s…
Casey:
Well, not 500--… 500 million Dollars from them…
Jeff:
It’s insane.
Casey:
Why bother? I’m going to Honolulu.
Jeff:
It’s insane.
Casey:
I’m really glad we patented this idea for the 3-button mouse.
Jeff:
I was talking recently to Chris Butcher on email. And he was talking about future stuff and, like… And I was saying I didn’t…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
I thought it was gonna be ridiculous…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
I think things are just gonna get worse. And he said, “Well, yeah. They’re gonna get worse because things are hard to program and we need to figure out ways to make them easier to program, right? Make these things…
Casey:
Things are hard to program?
Jeff:
Well, he meant more like… The complexity of what we’re building with all these interconnected things is one of the reasons why they misbehave and all that. And that we need to make them easier to program.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
An I’m paraphrasing. [ And he’d probably say that’s not what he said. ]
Casey:
None of that’s true but yeah, go ahead.
Jeff:
Well, my point was that programming is already too easy, right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It needs to be harder, not easier.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
There’s already too many people programming that shouldn’t be anywhere near a compiler. They should… Like, every time you take something clever that a good programmer wrote and library it up and make it available to a bad programmer, they’re going to find a way to make it evil or fucked up. You don’t need… Programming should be left to the people who can do it. Like, the first guy that writes a Crypto library — Impressive. Smart. Hard. Right?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The second guy who takes that library and turns it into a DRM solution…
Casey:
Yeah, total douche.
Jeff:
Total…
Casey:
And it doesn’t work and fucks up your root kit…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You know…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Shit and whatever…
Jeff:
Programming should be harder not easier.
Casey:
Well, I don’t think I have the same view of that as you. My opinion on that is the reason that everything’s fucked up in the way that it is is sort of the same thing as the Peter Principle, right? For programmers, instead of it being that you’re promoted to the point where you can no longer do your job effectively, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s that programmers tackle the problem that’s one harder than their competency, right? So if you took someone, right, and you took someone who’s really struggling with some complicated thing, right, like character animation or whatever, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And you have them go program the GPS system for your car, it would be fucking unreal, right? It’d be the most amazing GPS thing you’ve ever used, right? Or…
Jeff:
You want to go down.
Casey:
Right, exactly. But the problem is it doesn’t hold their interest, right? They’re interested in trying something a little harder than they can do easily.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So what happens is you’re always… The person who actually does the GPS system for your car is the person for whom GPS is a little too hard.
Jeff:
Right, he should be doing the digital watch.
Casey:
So you end up with something that just barely works.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Right, he should be doing the watch.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And the dude who’s doing the watch right now should be…
Jeff:
The fridge system…
Casey:
Lawnscaping…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
The front yard, right?
Jeff:
So you’re saying eventually…
Casey:
That’s the problem.
Jeff:
The guy in the very bottom falls out of tech?
Casey:
Isn’t a programmer. Yeah, that guy not a programmer. Right.
Jeff:
He falls out of tech completely.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You’re fired.
Casey:
Yeah, it goes down so he’s like… Yeah, guy who trims the front lawn, right, guy who has to clean the bathroom… And then it goes to, like, [ Ruby on Rails ] and, like, an IT, right, like… No, I was just kidding.
Jeff:
Yes. Well, no. That’s a good point is like, since people are always… That means people are always just barely failing instead of always just barely making something awesome because…
Casey:
Yeah, I mean, I really think that’s true because… At least personally, I feel like… That I definitely will always push myself to try new things when I’m comfortable with doing the things that I now know how to do well, right? Because part of programming for me is an exploration…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Of the ways in which we can do stuff.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
Right? And I feel like that is not something that only I do. I feel like that is a common way in which programmers operate. And it’s largely because programming is still not really a trade skill, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It is not like plumbing where you go learn to do it with another plumber and then you just fucking put the pipes in. Not that plumbing ever goes well but that’s a separate discussion, right? When it is, then I think you’ll get more people who just do simple programming that they can do and they do that thing, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And if you’re the best fucking plumber in town who does the fucking plumbing for skyscrapers, right? Then you are awesome and that’s what you do. And if you’re just the dude who all they can handle is the sink backed up, then that’s what they do and it’s fine, right? But right now, most people who get into programming get into it because they have an inquisitive experimental nature about computers and they learned it on their own.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
We’re still very much an industry of people who were not taught to do this by a tradesman. They are people who figured it out. And the only people who do shit like that are people who enjoy the figuring out…
Jeff:
Not the solving.
Casey:
Not just people who take satisfaction in doing the same thing time and again.
Jeff:
Well… Right.
Casey:
Well… Right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And so, until we make that transition, I think it’s just gonna be the case. You’re always gonna be having the thing you used be done by someone who should’ve been doing one thing easier than that.
Jeff:
So everybody go home. Stop what you’re working on now and choose…
Casey:
Pick something one step below…
Jeff:
Lower… And…
Casey:
Pick something that’s just a little bit beneath you. You think it’s a little bit beneath you, that’s right where you actually are.
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That is awesome. Oh, my goodness. That’s pretty good. So did you watch all Tuesday stuff madness? The election…
Casey:
Uh… Tuesday stuff? No.
Jeff:
You were working really late, getting a new action out so… Yeah.
Casey:
Well, you know, the thing is I told you about the alternative radio thing.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
And you know, in my opinion, it’s very difficult to get excited about politics in the present day and age, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because the more you learn about history, right… There’s 2 ways to look at it. There’s only 2 ways to look at it, that jive, that I think where the pieces fit together.
Jeff:
Right. Okay.
Casey:
And neither of them indicate that you should be involved…
Jeff:
In politics…
Casey:
In the political process, right?
Jeff:
I see. Okay.
Casey:
One way to look at it is that in the past, brilliant men were statesmen.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
They used… They were incredibly well-read, incredibly well- written, incredibly well- spoken. They thought a lot about problems. They had educated debate. And they formulated, like, solid arguments for the direction of their countries.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And whether or not their motives were good, they were still much more talented at what they were doing…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Than people today.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That’s one way to look at it.
Jeff:
They were more thoughtful.
Casey:
They think John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and so on…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
People that they normally point to, right, and then you look at people today and you’re just like, “This is ridiculous.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Like, look at how far we’ve fallen. How can I possibly help the system get back to somewhere that it was at that time, right?
Jeff:
Right. Sure.
Casey:
And in my opinion, that is a totally valid way to think about it. The more you learn about history, the more you realize that today’s people are retards.
Jeff:
Right. But I think…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
The other way to look at it is that that’s complete garbage, right? Yes, they wrote a lot back then. It’s because they didn’t have TV.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
There was nothing else for them to do. They had to read books…
Jeff:
Right. And they probably didn’t write.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
They had their spin guys.
Casey:
They had a bunch of slaves so they weren’t doing work, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Whatever. Okay.
Jeff:
They were elitist, for example.
Casey:
So the thing is, all of the same problems that we have today, they had then, right? Founding of the country, the Alien and Sedition Act, right? Same as Patry Act.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
Same exact fucking shit, right? Okay? They had political scandals.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
Right? They had backroom politicking. They had ridiculous stupid [inaudible 26:12] Where are we gonna put the capital of the country? Well, we certainly can’t put it too far south because all of the northern people are getting upset about that. And you can’t put it too far north because then all the southern people are getting too upset about that. How are we gonna solve this conflict? Well, let’s use people who have a lot of political capital like George Washington and we’ll name it after him so we can try to make him sort of have the location. Pick somewhere close to Virginia because that’s where he’s from. And Alexander Hamilton was from there. And he kind of… Like, all this shit you’re just like, “That’s exactly the same shit that happens today.”
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
Well, and they had negative politicking where…
Casey:
The mudslinging back then… You think campaigns are negative now. They are nothing like they were back then. Somebody says anything like , “You know what, I think we have too high of a tariff on lumber.” Not that they had a tariff on lumber but…
Jeff:
Let’s say…
Casey:
Say they said something like that. They’d be like, somebody would write a newspaper article the next day, right, called like, you know, “The Splinter of the Confederacy” or something like this, right? And it would be some southern [ stumps man ] or something up there and be like, “Never has such vitriol been uttered in the public sphere than my opponent who claims that we should undertake this most odious of enterprises involving that which our houses are built on and our ships constructed.” You know, like… It’s just nothing like it, right? The mudslinging was instant and it was complete…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
In ever sphere. There was no talk of running a clean campaign.
Jeff:
And then, “P.S. I think he sleeps with slaves.”
Casey:
Right, sure.
Jeff:
It’s like… It was not pretty.
Casey:
They weren’t so much concerned about that necessarily…
Jeff:
It was just…
Casey:
But it was mud.
Jeff:
Ugly.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s nippy out.
Casey:
It’s nippy. It’s a bit nippy.
Jeff:
And due to, I don’t know, the artificial construction of her anatomy…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
The nippy protrusions…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Were pointing different directions.
Casey:
Oh.
Jeff:
Right? So…
Casey:
It was crooked?
Jeff:
It is cross-eyed. And that was…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
So the picture I saw, I’m just like, you know, Pam Anderson at a PETA rally. You bring it up and you’re like, “Oh… Oh…” Because first off, you’re distracted from the thing…
Casey:
Right, right.
Jeff:
Then you’re distracted by the bad thing. And then you totally forget about anything going on, PETA-wise.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s completely out the window.
Casey:
And they’re all talking about, like, surgical experiments on animals…
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
I mean the one in the photo…
Jeff:
Yes, totally.
Casey:
Not the one above the photo…
Jeff:
Anyway…
Casey:
Well, I mean, I don’t really know very much about plastic surgery.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
I’m imagining that it is actually somewhat difficult to reconstruct breasts in a manner that makes them look like they are symmetric.
Jeff:
I assume… I would assume…
Casey:
I mean, I don’t know about you but I can’t even hang photos above the fireplace that aren’t slightly bent, right? Like, I’m doing it like, “Ah, this thing is a little to the left. Uh… Nah, that’s good enough,” right?
Jeff:
Fine.
Casey:
I mean, that’s what I’m thinking, right?
Jeff:
Leave it, yeah.
Casey:
Let alone something where, like, I’m inserting sort of apparatuses into human tissue and I have to worry about once it heals, which is gonna be balanced and how they… Like, I mean… I mean, come on.
Jeff:
Yeah, it’s…
Casey:
What do you expect here?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
If they actually were pointing in the right direction, that’d be, like, pretty impressive.
Jeff:
That’s more impressive, yeah.
Casey:
It’s like, “Wow…”
Jeff:
I see. Alright.
Casey:
That was, like, the [ higher end ] job, I guess on some level.
Jeff:
So I should be more… You know, just impressed. It’s normal.
Casey:
Well, no. You should be impressed because it wasn’t that way.
Jeff:
I see. I should just not…
Casey:
You should be like, “Well, that’s kind of to be expected.”
Jeff:
That’s what happens.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah. Well, it did and it was very distracting. I did remember it was PETA, though, but I thought you would like “cross-eyed Pam Anderson PETA rally”.
Casey:
You know, I can’t say I receive that as an email very often.
Jeff:
Yep. Nope. But was that what you expected?
Casey:
Since it was Pam Anderson…
Jeff:
It wasn’t unreasonable?
Casey:
I assumed that it was going to be something that was at least somewhat, you know, sexually related or… You know, it wasn’t gonna be like, “Oh, she gave a really great speech but some dude behind her was cross-eyed.” You know, I knew that that wasn’t gonna be it. But I… I mean, yeah, I didn’t guess…
Jeff:
You’re still surprised?
Casey:
I didn’t guess quite specifically…
Jeff:
What was crossed…
Casey:
What cross-eyed referred to… I thought you meant her actual eyes or someone’s…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And maybe the mud… The best you can say is that the mud was usually slung because of a disagreement on an issue rather than just slung. But even that wasn’t true.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You’re talking about people who had duels, okay? Somebody thought… You know, Aaron Burr thinks that someone has impinged his honor so he shoots you, right? That actually happens.
Jeff:
Aaron Burr was in, like, an [inaudible 28:27] to duels. He was, like, just a…
Casey:
Yeah. Well, he was in one of the most famous duels of all time…
Jeff:
He was a bad ass.
Casey:
In Weehawken…
Jeff:
Yes. Yeah. Well, he was just a bad ass. He’s like, “You don’t fuck with Aaron Burr.” Yeah.
Casey:
No, he was not a bad ass.
Jeff:
No…
Casey:
At all. He was a mama’s boy, basically.
Jeff:
I can’t remember. It may not be Aaron Burr then. It was one guy who was, in his life…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Two dozen duels.
Casey:
Oh, that… Well, yeah. I’m not saying he wasn’t in a lot of duels…
Jeff:
No, I’m just saying, like…
Casey:
I’m saying he wasn’t bad ass, but yeah…
Jeff:
Yeah. I’m saying that this dude, you don’t argue with him or you’re like, “Oh, fuck. Duel… Duel again. Sorry, man.” It’s like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“I forgot your Big Mac.” “Oh, duel!”
Casey:
Yeah, yeah, fucking… “Chalupa?”
Jeff:
“I didn’t ask for chalupa.”
Casey:
“I’m coming in there after it.”
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Duel at the drive-through.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. That’s pretty scary. So what was this… Where did… What were you listening to where this got you on this kick?
Casey:
I was trying to listen to a lot of…
Jeff:
Oh, okay.
Casey:
One problem that I’ve actually been having recently is the fact that I would prefer that there be… Like, audiobooks needs to get solved.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s not solved yet. I mean, I would like, ideally, 400 or 500 hours on basically, like, you know, 1750 to 1850.
Jeff:
Oh, I see. Yeah.
Casey:
You know? And you just… That’s not available, right?
Jeff:
That’s not enough, yeah.
Casey:
Once in a while… I listened to “Founding Brothers” recently which I thought was fabulous. It’s an absolutely great book. And, like, if I could somehow have just every year… I’ll listen to a hundred of those. You know, every year, I would love it because I just… It’s great information.
Jeff:
Well, the one that drove me crazy was that one you lent me, the 1776.
Casey:
Yeah, and there’s no 1777.
Jeff:
Right. It ends right when it’s good.
Casey:
You’re like, “What the fuck?”
Jeff:
It’s like…
Casey:
Well, it’s all good. You’re totally sucked in.
Jeff:
Well, no, like… It ends…
Casey:
Like, what’s gonna happen? Do they win the war?
Jeff:
Right at the point where they get to Pennsylvania and they’re crossing the Delaware and it’s like, “That’s the end of the year? Whoop! That’s 1231.” It’s like, “Where’s the sequel to this?”
Casey:
Yeah, insert coin. Yeah.
Jeff:
Oh…
Casey:
I wish that was… I mean, I guess the problem is, you know, you’d make $10,000 a year off of me and $500 off of everyone else combined. So I’m not supporting the industry but, like, I… It’s what I love. I love listening to non-fiction. And good non-fiction is great.
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s crazy. Well, I was asking because right before the Kentucky Derby, Hilary…
Casey:
Kentucky Derby was recently? Was that…
Jeff:
Yeah, like, 2 weekends ago or last weekend?
Casey:
Got it.
Jeff:
So right before it… I think it was last weekend, actually.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I don’t remember. Right before it, Hilary made an appearance down there.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And she said, you know, “I want you to go out there and cheer on the Philly,” because there’s only one female horse running in the Kentucky Derby.
Casey:
Now, is there… I don’t know anything about horse racing.
Jeff:
I don’t, either.
Casey:
Is there a gender bias in horse racing? I don’t mean like sexism. I just mean are male horses better or female horses better for speed? Is one lighter?
Jeff:
I don’t think it matters. [ Secretariat ] I think was a female horse and it was the most winning one…
Casey:
So in general, maybe, it doesn’t matter so much? It’s just…
Jeff:
I don’t think it’s…
Casey:
The horse, not the gender.
Jeff:
I think it’s breeding and… Yeah. Right. But, yeah…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But you know what, I…
Casey:
I mean humans, right, men are always faster. They don’t have a co-ed 100-meter dash. It’s like, the men have a 100-meter dash. The women have a 100-meter dash.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So I didn’t know if horses were gender specifically better at something, maybe females are always faster. Maybe males are always faster. Who knows?
Jeff:
Yeah. I couldn’t tell you.
Casey:
Maybe babies are always faster. Who knows?
Jeff:
Yeah, I have no idea.
Casey:
Maybe you want to race a pony, I don’t know. Or a foal or…
Jeff:
Well, they are always fairly young horses. That’s true.
Casey:
Oh, so you want the young…
Jeff:
They put them [ out… It’s done as soon as… ] It’s actually pretty early now. They used to run them like… [ Secretariat ] ran for quite a while.
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
Anyway, so she was like, “Win one for the Philly,” you know, “Go female…”
Casey:
Not “win one for the Philly”…
Jeff:
Well, you know…
Casey:
You’re saying, “Cheer for the Philly to win.”
Jeff:
“Cheer for the Philly to win.”
Casey:
Yeah. It’s not…
Jeff:
Unfortunately, that was… And that horse’s name was… What was it called? Eight Bells, okay…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So, unfortunately, after the running of the Kentucky Derby…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That horse finished second…
Casey:
Oh…
Jeff:
Kind of a bad omen.
Casey:
So close.
Jeff:
It broke both ankles during the race.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
That’s bad…
Jeff:
Collapsed right at the end.
Casey:
How did it finish racing with 2 broken ankles?
Jeff:
And then, it was euthanized on the track, on live TV.
Casey:
Oh, God.
Jeff:
Pretty much the worse case for the Philly.
Casey:
That’s not a common thing to have happen at a horse race, is it?
Jeff:
No, it’s not very… Well…
Casey:
I mean, I don’t think of horse racing as a particularly humane endeavor in general…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But still, I didn’t think it was that bad.
Jeff:
Well, I mean… No, it’s not that bad. I mean, these horses are million Dollar… I mean, many millions of Dollars. It’s an expensive sport.
Casey:
Believe me. I know.
Jeff:
So… There was that other horse a couple years ago…
Casey:
No, I’m not saying that as a joke. I have, like… Probably, I have 2 close female friends, both of whom are… Like, one of them runs the Stanford Equestrian Team…
Jeff:
Really?
Casey:
For starters…
Jeff:
This is just bizarre.
Casey:
I’m serious.
Jeff:
Are they freegans?
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
Okay. Just checking.
Casey:
No, she’s not a freegan in any way.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
She’s married to a lawyer. They have a big house there. They’re very well to do. They’re the furthest thing from…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
A freegan can live out of their garbage just fine.
Jeff:
Right. Okay.
Casey:
And another one who lives on [ Vashan ] Island who has her own horses on a farm.
Jeff:
Yeah, there’s a lot of horse people here, yeah.
Casey:
So for whatever reason, I have close friends who do horses and I know they’re… Even shitty horses are expensive.
Jeff:
Yeah. Well…
Casey:
There’s no such thing as a cheap horse, really, at the end of the day.
Jeff:
Yeah, the…
Casey:
So a prize-winning horse must be incredibly valuable.
Jeff:
The frontrunner 2 years ago also broke his ankle, [ Barbos ] or Barbados or something…
Casey:
Wow. I guess there’s just too much pressure… Their legs are so poorly designed for their weight, you know?
Jeff:
Yeah, they’re… I think… They think that it just might be they’re too muscle-y. They’re getting bigger and bigger and bigger…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
’Cos records keep falling but they don’t know for sure. It could be random. It could be whatever.
Casey:
Feeding them horse steroids?
Jeff:
Yeah, I think…
Casey:
Are they gonna have, like, in Congress, like, you know… And [ they’ll ask the question ] and then it goes… You know? It’s like…
Jeff:
Well, the only…
Casey:
Roger Clemens is there defending the horse and he’s like…
Jeff:
No, he’s racing the horse.
Casey:
“I’ve taken everything he’s taken.”
Jeff:
He’s like, “I’m faster than him. Let’s race. Let’s race. Let’s race right now.” No, the dude that…
Casey:
“I strengthen my pitching arm by jamming it into a bowl of rice.”
Jeff:
Yeah. The awesome thing about the last one was they helped the horse off and they were trying to nurse it back to health. It wasn’t gonna race again.
Casey:
Before euthanizing it?
Jeff:
Yeah. This one broke both legs. They just euthanized it on the track. It’s just like, “Ouch…”
Casey:
Now, why do they euthanize it? It can heal, though.
Jeff:
Horse legs aren’t meant to heal. Their hooves are toenails. And so, when you take weight off a long time, the interior of their foot falls away from the hoof. And so, they’ve got…
Casey:
Okay, A, you know way too fucking much about horses.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
What is going on here? And B, I have no B but I wanted to start with an A.
Jeff:
I do know a fair amount about horses. Yes.
Casey:
Why do you know so much about horses? I’m the one with the horse friends.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And you’re the one who knows about horses.
Jeff:
But I grew up…
Casey:
I’m gonna have to introduce you to my horse friends, obviously.
Jeff:
I grew up in Utah. I rode horses.
Casey:
Did you?
Jeff:
Every summer, I worked on a farm. So, yeah, we did have horses all the time.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
But yeah, when they break their… I mean, sometimes they can fix it. But if it’s an ankle, then it’s… And they can’t… Unlike some other animals…
Casey:
They can’t pin it or whatever?
Jeff:
They can’t walk on 3 legs because they have… The way a horse walks…
Casey:
The weight distribution is bad.
Jeff:
Yeah. And like, there are other hooved animals that can get away with 3 but horses can’t so…
Casey:
Alright. Off to the [ glue ] factory.
Jeff:
Yep, exactly.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
But anyway, that was pretty much the worst…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Well, it’s either the best or the worst…
Casey:
“Four legs good, three legs bad,” if you will?
Jeff:
Yeah, it’s either the between or the worst symbolism for Hilary.
Casey:
Let me ask you this. Was the 1st place horse black?
Jeff:
Always bet on black.
Casey:
Was it?
Jeff:
I have no idea but… Yeah. I…
Casey:
I’m guessing that means that it wasn’t because they would’ve mentioned that in the article as additional irony.
Jeff:
That would’ve been brought up. Yes. I… It’s pretty…
Casey:
Now, is that irony?
Jeff:
What?
Casey:
I guess it kind of is irony.
Jeff:
What? That the…
Casey:
It would be ironic if the horse was black.
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
It’s like an additional unfortunate twist on the already bad coincidence.
Jeff:
Yeah, maybe. I don’t know. Maybe if the horse was actually running for president, then it would be true. I can’t keep track. I don’t know. It was bizarre, nonetheless. I just felt bad.
Casey:
So on the horse theme…
Jeff:
On the horse theme…
Casey:
I have something that I would like you to explain to me.
Jeff:
I’m gonna take some more Thai iced tea here.
Casey:
Are you running down?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You ran out of gas?
Jeff:
We’re…
Casey:
We got 20 minutes left, baby. You’ve got to bring it back. Bring it on back.
Jeff:
I know. I’ve got to power up. It’s been 120 minutes of podcasting, so far, according to the Mega.
Casey:
So I got an email from you…
Jeff:
You did?
Casey:
This week.
Jeff:
I’m scared.
Casey:
And the email said… The subject was “Podcast” which means you wanted to talk about it on the podcast.
Jeff:
Yep. Okay.
Casey:
And the body of the mail said… And this is the only thing in it besides “Jeff”, the signature. “Cross-eyed Pam Anderson at the PETA rally.”
Jeff:
Oh, yeah.
Casey:
That’s what it said.
Jeff:
I forgot all about that. Okay. Yeah.
Casey:
That’s all it said.
Jeff:
You want to hear about this?
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
You have piqued my curiosity…
Jeff:
With the cross-eyed…
Casey:
To say the least, because I’m envisioning some photo of her with her eyes crossed and, like, a dog or something. I have no idea why that’s something you want to talk about on the podcast.
Jeff:
It just cracked me up because the picture… This is one of those pictures that’s worth a thousand words.
Casey:
Okay. Is this a picture we can link to on the podcast?
Jeff:
I don’t know. I have to see if I can find it again.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
It was a video, I believe.
Casey:
Is it a picture that Sean can link to on the podcast?
Jeff:
I think Sean should be able to find it.
Casey:
Okay. That’s all I wanted to know.
Jeff:
Yeah. So, yeah. She’s a PETA lady. You know, she does the ads and stuff…
Casey:
Animal rights and so on?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So there was…
Casey:
The Advanced Chimposiums and all?
Jeff:
Basically.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So she was in New York and they were doing a rally kind of thing. I think it was New York but I don’t remember. I don’t care.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Anyway, she was there. And they had…
Casey:
She ran into a guy in the park and he was like, “Can you help tie this around my balls?” He already had the neck part done but he was like…
Jeff:
No, the first thing he said is, “I have some meth in my pocket. Can you tie this around my balls?” Yeah. Anyway, so… No, she’s there. She’s there at the rally and they’re showing these just… You know, they generally have these really graphic pictures of, like, monkeys with wires coming out of their head and all this stuff.
Casey:
Oh.
Jeff:
So she has a picture…
Casey:
“Robot monkey?”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
“Sounds awesome.”
Jeff:
So she’s kind of like the assistant. Like, the PETA dude…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Is sitting there talking with a little pointer.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
And she’s holding these awful pictures.
Casey:
So basically what you’re saying is even at a fucking animal rights rally, Pam Anderson is still arm candy?
Jeff:
Right. Totally.
Casey:
She never… She has only one role in life.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That she can play…
Jeff:
Well, no, this is because she tried acting. It didn’t work out so she went one lower. That’s arm candy, right? Game show…
Casey:
So, basically, she gets the prize. She’s like, “You have done what you should do.”
Jeff:
Yep. She’s found her niche.
Casey:
“You stayed in your level of… You stayed right in the warm water of the pool.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
“Just before it gets to the deep end…”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“And you stayed there.”
Jeff:
So she’s holding these just horrible pictures. The guy’s talking about it.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And then she’s kind of flipping through.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Okay, so now, the problem here was, in the picture…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And this will be a little difficult to describe but Pamela Anderson is, like, somewhat voluptuous, right? Like…
Casey:
Well…
Jeff:
She is artificially enhanced…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Greatly.
Casey:
That’s true.
Jeff:
Right. And she doesn’t wear, like, conservative attire.
Casey:
When I think voluptuous, I think more like a Rubin’s nude…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And she does not at all look like that.
Jeff:
If you squeezed the Rubin’s nude up…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
All the way up to the top, then you’d have Pam Anderson. Alright, so she’s holding these. The way she’s holding them…
Casey:
The photos?
Jeff:
The photos. At least…
Casey:
Tell me what she’s holding because I’m not sure at this point. She’s holding the photos?
Jeff:
She’s holding the posters.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
They’re leaning against her, underneath her assets, her money makers.
Casey:
Okay, so she’s using…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
The upper sort of protrusion…
Jeff:
To hold…
Casey:
To act almost as the top of an easel does when you ratchet it down on to the portrait…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
It’s not clipped on per se but it is applying downward pressure.
Jeff:
Totally. Exactly.
Casey:
To hold the photo in place?
Jeff:
So the first thing…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
I looked at is. . . I’m not paying attention to the poster at all.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I’m like, “Okay, hey, it’s Pam Anderson.”
Casey:
Yeah. Right.
Jeff:
The second thing you’d notice is she’s not… You wouldn’t say she’s super, like, extra classy as a person, right?
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
She wears revealing outfits.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And in this case…
Casey:
When she comes down the stairwell at the debutant ball…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
They assume that she’s in between the two people who are coming out that night right?
Jeff:
Yeah, right.
Casey:
It’s not like, “Oh, here comes such and such from such and such…”
Jeff:
“Here’s the girl that’s going to come out of the cake.”
Casey:
Yes. No, no, no…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Oh, right. There you go.
Jeff:
Exactly.
Casey:
She’s coming out of the cake.
Jeff:
So…
Casey:
She’s kind of a cake comer, if you know what I mean.
Jeff:
So she is in her most conservative attire…
Casey:
Dressed down for the PETA rally…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Trying to keep it under control.
Jeff:
Which is a super, super small tight t-shirt.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah, because there’s either a t-shirt or a wet t-shirt and she chose the more respectable option.
Jeff:
Right. This is an important issue for her.
Casey:
I her wardrobe… Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
Okay. But she didn’t want to go too far.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
She did not wear a bra, okay, just the t-shirt.
Casey:
Well, I didn’t list that in the wardrobe. I said t-shirt or wet t-shirt.
Jeff:
Right. So she’s…
Casey:
Because later on at the after-party, it’s probably gonna have to be wet and everyone knows that doesn’t work with a bra.
Jeff:
So she is in Central Park on a brisk New York morning…
Casey:
Right, okay.
Jeff:
With these things. And…
Casey:
It’s nippy out, if you will.
Casey:
Yeah. Eye’s… Which wasn’t the case. Now, I saw something on TV again that was on randomly.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So I didn’t see the whole thing. I saw only a part.
Jeff:
Maybe you’re surfing around for weird stuff when I’m not there and you’re like…
Casey:
I don’t have to. That is my point. I don’t have to, right? Whenever I come in, there’s something on…
Jeff:
Crazy on?
Casey:
That’s weird.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It’s never, like, normal, like something… It’s never “The Office” or whatever because I know when that’s on and you call me and you’re like, “Oh, let’s watch ‘The Office’ or whatever,” right? That’s not happening. I’m coming down at some point, 1:30 in the morning. Some shit’s on. It’s on Animal Planet, whatever. And it’s like, “Oh, look. It’s this thing where we follow a bunch of badgers around for a year and crazy shit they do.” You know, it’s like, “What the fuck?” Anyway, this was a documentary.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Not a high rent documentary or not even like a low-brow high rent like Michael Moore or something but, like, just made for TV.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Like “60 Minutes” or “20/20”, one of these kind of things, right.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And the story was about a guy who got fired from “Cirque du Soleil”…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
A performer… He got fired from “Cirque du Soleil”…
Jeff:
Not strong enough?
Casey:
Because he was HIV positive.
Jeff:
Oh, okay. Bad.
Casey:
Okay?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So he sued them…
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Somewhat rightfully so…
Jeff:
Sure, of course.
Casey:
Because… I mean, I guess I don’t really know what the laws are in Canada but we’ve kind of established a precedent here now that unless your job is blood transfusion donor, you know…
Jeff:
You can’t be…
Casey:
You’re not really supposed to be discriminating on the basis of HIV or other things like this.
Jeff:
Okay, sure.
Casey:
Okay. So that part wasn’t surprising.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Too surprising to me… What was surprising to me was that “Cirque du Soleil” had not apparently addressed this issue in the past.
Jeff:
Which is…
Casey:
HIV positive…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Circus performers…
Jeff:
Well, oiled…
Casey:
Now, I don’t want to sound too bigoted here…
Jeff:
Oiled French… Yes, yeah…
Casey:
Right? And I’m probably going to but what can I say? When I think of, you know, conservatively sexual individuals, I don’t think circus performer, right?
Jeff:
Well, I just… Forget circus…
Casey:
I mean, their job is sexier than anything I’ve ever done in my life. Just what they do on a nightly basis for money…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Their performance is 10 times more sexual than anything I ever do.
Jeff:
Well, no, and…
Casey:
Including regular sex. So I’m not saying that I think they should all… You know, like, that they all have HIV or something. I’m just saying people… Whatever the incidence in the population, they’ve got that.
Jeff:
Well, no. Forget that. Forget that. Like, forget circus performer. Specifically “Cirque du Soleil”…
Casey:
Specifically “Cirque du Soleil”…
Jeff:
Is, like… Like, I’ve seen like, 4 or 5 of those now.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, as [ Pat Oswald ] said, it is one of the gayest things I’ve ever seen…
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
And I’ve seen drag queen shows.
Casey:
Sure.
Jeff:
And the drag queen shows are way butcher. So, I guess…
Casey:
But it’s not just that, right? It’s like… Because maybe… I don’t know what the statistics are these days, right? I don’t know if the… I mean, traditionally, the incidence of HIV in gay males…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Was higher than in the average population because of some of the ways they have sex are more likely to transmit it.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
I don’t know if that’s changed. Obviously, a lot of people have tried to promote safe sex more vigorously in that community than they have elsewhere because it was such a huge problem…
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
So maybe those are going in, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I don’t know.
Jeff:
I think it still remains highly skewed…
Casey:
It probably still remains highly skewed. And yes, there’s no way that they have the [inaudible 49:51] distribution of gayness in “Cirque du Soleil”. It is definitely on the high end. There’s no question about that.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
That said, even removing that, I’m saying…
Jeff:
I’d still be surprised.
Casey:
Yes. It’s a circus. It goes from town to town. They’re wearing tight trousers…
Jeff:
Their oiled and greasy.
Casey:
They’re in a performance art.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
They’re very muscular and lithe and virile.
Jeff:
I see what you’re saying.
Casey:
There’s a lot of sex. If I was a circus performer, I would be having a lot of sex.
Jeff:
So you’re just…
Casey:
So, I don’t understand how management wakes up one day and goes, “We have a case of HIV!?!”
Jeff:
“Are you kidding me?”
Casey:
“Fuck! We have got to keep this con--…” It’s like, “Dude, are you out of your fucking mind?”
Jeff:
Well, maybe this was a documentary from a long time ago. Was it recent?
Casey:
I don’t care when it’s from. I don’t care if it’s before it got transmitted to humans. They probably had a higher incidence in the monkeys that they use in their act at the time. It was probably French HIV monkeys doing little things up on the high wire or whatever…
Jeff:
Oh…
Casey:
I’m just saying…
Jeff:
How did it end?
Casey:
What’s with this management? Furthermore… Okay, forget all the shit I just said. Pretend I wasn’t being bigoted for a moment. “Cirque du Soleil”, where do they get off being conservative about a sexually transmitted disease? They’re not exactly selling good wholesome Christian entertainment, okay? This isn’t “Vegetales” here, okay?
Jeff:
Oh, my God.
Casey:
This is not a Colorado Mega Church. We’re talking about an act where 2 dudes with bulging trousers hold each other in poses for 10 minutes.
Jeff:
That’s…
Casey:
With liberal body oil, okay? And you’re all like, “Oh, no. We might catch the AIDS…” Like, what is your fucking problem?
Jeff:
Well, what happened? How did it end?
Casey:
He sued and they settled.
Jeff:
Oh, okay.
Casey:
Which is what should happen.
Jeff:
No, but I mean, I just… I expected more fireworks than that. Like…
Casey:
He sued and they settled.
Jeff:
Is he back in?
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So they let him back in?
Casey:
Yeah. I don’t understand why they even think it would be a problem.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Do the circus performers, like, cut themselves and rub it up and down on each other very often or something? Like, where was the magical transmission going to happen?
Jeff:
Oh, brother.
Casey:
I mean, basically, as far as I’m concerned, it’s like… If, for some reason, you know, there are people or performers in your company who were uncomfortable with it, then they don’t have to be in the same act with him or something. But in general…
Jeff:
It’s not a big deal
Casey:
Unless someone has a big problem with it, why would you need to take it upon your company…
Jeff:
Exactly.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Have it be a fucking waiver. And if someone doesn’t want to sign that waiver, then they aren’t in that act. End of story. It seems pretty straightforward to me.
Jeff:
It’s just the clueless management thing.
Casey:
It’s a totally clueless management thing.
Jeff:
Oh, my…
Casey:
So, yeah, I was pretty shocked at that. It’s so un-Soleil, if you will, for them to fire someone for having AIDS.
Jeff:
That’s totally not Soleil.
Casey:
It goes against every stereotype of Cirque du Soleil that I could possibly think of including the fact that they might be progressive-thinking individuals which is what I would’ve guess, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And obviously, they are. So…
Jeff:
They’re all voting for McCain. “Cirque du Soleil”…
Casey:
Yeah. That’s totally it, right? Like now, at this point, I’m thinking in my head, “Yeah, maybe it’s like… It’s run by… Oh, yeah. ‘Cirque du Soleil’ is owned by the guy who runs Urban Outfitters or something.” You know, it’s some super right wing guy who just feels like there’s a lot of money in, like, appearing to not be conservative.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So his businesses aren’t but he’s all, like, “Oh, yeah. I was having dinner with the Bush’s the other day…”
Jeff:
You open the voting booth and 20 clowns climb out, right?
Casey:
They’re doing giant flips over the…
Jeff:
Yeah, exactly…
Casey:
Yeah, yeah…
Jeff:
Oh, man.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That is awesome. That is awesome. My goodness.
Casey:
It was pretty ridiculous.
Jeff:
Yeah, that was pretty crazy. You never know what you’re gonna catch on the TV late at night.
Casey:
No, you do not know what you’re gonna catch on the TV late at night. So, one more thing.
Jeff:
You got one more?
Casey:
Yeah. I got one more thing I want to talk about besides “Cirque du Soleil” catching the AIDS.
Jeff:
I’ll tell you one quick little mini story while you’re getting ready for yours.
Casey:
Yeah?
Jeff:
And that is the first company I ever worked at was a CAD company. And they were called American International Corporation.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And they made something called Laser CAD.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And they changed their…
Casey:
What is laser about their CAD?
Jeff:
Oh, it was laser, baby.
Casey:
Were they just like, “We want an 80’s tech name in there. Laser CAD.”
Jeff:
It kind of is laser-y since it’s all vector kinds of drawing…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, it’s all lines. It is a little bit like…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It is a little bit like [ chromatron ].
Casey:
Like Laser Cats… Yeah, yeah, yeah…
Jeff:
So anyway, yeah, so they did that. They merged with this company called Design Systems that did CAD… They did AutoCAD…
Casey:
They did not change their name to AIDS.
Jeff:
They…
Casey:
Tell me they did not change their initial to AIDS.
Jeff:
They announced to all of us that that was going to be the name. Nobody noticed because it was called American…
Casey:
I noticed it before you fucking said it.
Jeff:
Right. American International Design Systems was the entire name.
Casey:
Okay. I guess we were just talking about AIDS. So it’s on the brain.
Jeff:
Yeah, and… Well, and also, this was in ‘86, so…
Casey:
Oh, so people weren’t thinking about catching AIDS so much?
Jeff:
Yeah. So American International Design Systems. And it wasn’t ‘til a day later that they brought everybody back together again and said, “Yeah, that’s… We made an unfortunate…”
Casey:
Oh, so it’s just like the [ Eneron ] thing?
Jeff:
Yeah, totally.
Casey:
Where they changed the name to [ Eneron ] and realized that that was a part of the digestive system.
Jeff:
Exactly.
Casey:
So they had to just take the E out to make it [ Enron ].
Jeff:
When it did turn into the real digestive system.
Casey:
Yeah, exactly. Turns out…
Jeff:
Okay, so what was your other thing?
Casey:
Even though the name didn’t stick, the concept did.
Jeff:
The concept stuck well.
Casey:
Speaking about… It’s funny because we didn’t have a lead in before. I gotta blow my nose.
Jeff:
You didn’t have a… Oh, I see. You were just gonna segue?
Casey:
We didn’t have a segue.
Jeff:
You blew right into the microphone. That’s gonna be like 900 decibels.
Casey:
Ah, we’ll fix it in post. There’s some auto-editing software in here. I didn’t tell you. I just bought the new nose-reducing… The snot-reducing plug-in for sound forge. It automatically fixes that shit.
Jeff:
No, rotate around.
Casey:
It was used on physical graffiti to re-master out the sneeze sounds.
Jeff:
Stop it. Rotate. Oi…
Casey:
What? I’m kinda stuffy.
Jeff:
Stop it.
Casey:
I might need one more.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Wait a second.
Jeff:
Stop it.
Casey:
Wait, one more. Just one more.
Jeff:
Okay. MegaTimer, this is a minute and half of blowing.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
You’re totally gonna turn that down.
Casey:
No, I’m not. Alright. So, speaking of things excrement. Enron and excrement… Things that smell bad…
Jeff:
Ugh, I don’t like the sounds of this.
Casey:
Normally, I do not read Slash Dot.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Because it’s a terrible fucking site filled with crap. It’s like… It’s Fox News for tech people. That s what Slash Dot is, right? It is a totally self-serving… You know, it’s basically… It’s that thing where, on Fox News, they’re gonna have a debate and the debate is gonna be like “the Bible is awesome versus the Bible is awesome-er”, right, is the debate. And that’s the same thing. That’s what Slash Dot is. It’s a bunch of people arguing where the thing that they’re arguing about, both sides are tech masturbation fest, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So it’s like…
Jeff:
Red Hat or Ubuntu…
Casey:
News story: “Physicist figures out how they might be able to build a real [ space-based ] laser.” You’re like, “Whoopie-fucking-doo. Get out your fucking [ tri-corder ] and have your Star Trek themed party and talk about your new [ space-based ] laser. Woohoo!” And they always have some stupid fucking ass name in there like, “In the Burning You with Light Department,” that has, like, 13 fucking dashes in it and makes no goddamn sense… And then they have a picture of Bill Gates with an artificial eye. It’s like, they… And it’s like, this is funny to them, not once, not twice but every day, multiple times a day. And they’re like, “God, this site is awesome. I RSS-ed it. I can’t get enough. It’s awesome.” That is Slash Dot. But, that said…
Jeff:
You’re [ privy on that ].
Casey:
Sometimes, I get desperate because I am in a restaurant…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
I am eating and I have read everything…
Jeff:
On the phone…
Casey:
On the Reuters news feed…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Which also sucks ass but at least it’s about something that actually has something to do with anything, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And I need some more stuff to read. I’m not done with the food. There is more food on the plate and I have nothing to read.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I already read The Onion. I already read the other sites that have mobile device capability.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And so, I go to Slash Dot Mobile in these times when there’s nothing else to read. So I went there.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
And I read that there is a company coming out with an SMS smell chip.
Jeff:
An SMS smell chip? Alright.
Casey:
It is a chip that allows you to send to your SMS friends, when you send them a text message, an odor along with the message.
Jeff:
This is like the shitty booths at GDC. In the back, there’s always somebody with some Smell-A-Tron 5000.
Casey:
Well, hold on a second. First, I’d like to say something. The ability to talk to a nerd without smelling them is one of the primary innovations of the last 10 years. Why are you undoing that? Why are you undoing that? Why do you want to put odor back into communication? We only just got rid of it.
Jeff:
Well, maybe you…
Casey:
Okay?
Jeff:
Could choose the odor like an emoticon. It’s not gonna be your odor.
Casey:
What is the problem here?
Jeff:
It’s like, “Oh, pineapple,” at the end of your sentence. It’s like…
Casey:
That’s gonna be even worse!
Jeff:
Instead of an LOL…
Casey:
That’s gonna be even fucking worse.
Jeff:
Laughing out loud… Pineapple.
Casey:
Because now, instead of having the smell of nerd when you talk to somebody, you’re going to have the smell chosen by nerd when you talk to somebody. It’s like, “What the fuck was that smell? You just SMS-ed me?” It’s like, “It’s Darth Vader.” It’s like, “I don’t want to fucking smell Darth Vader every goddamn time you send me a message. It’s like, “Oh, that’s fucking… Some sexy chick,” right? Or that’s a wildcat. Like, whatever the fucking little things are people use for their avatar, that’s gonna be the smells. And you’re gonna have to smell that shit every time someone sends you a message.
Jeff:
It smells like…
Casey:
These people should just be shot.
Jeff:
Bacon wrapped in leather… It’s Darth Vader. That’s gonna… I’m totally buying you that service.
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I do not want that in my phone, in my computer.
Jeff:
What about in your game?
Casey:
But you’re absolutely right about it…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It is exactly the same thing that happens. Every 5 years, somebody decides that the next big thing in gaming…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Is going to be smelling the game.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Right? I want to smell the game.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
That’s what we’re gonna do. They’re like, “The next version to immersion is smelling the game,” right? That’s like saying the problem with the first person shooter is you can’t actually feel the bullets when they hit you.
Jeff:
Right, exactly.
Casey:
It’s like… No, no, no, no, no. Smell? Think about the games we play. The smells from the environments you normally inhabit in a game are some of the most vile, disgusting smells known to humans. You are always in the sewers, on the battlefields, right? Disgusting necrotic flesh everywhere. What does a Hell Gate smell like and demons?
Jeff:
And now, we’ll know.
Casey:
You think it smells like fucking Hello Kitty? Oh, here’s a tip for you. It doesn’t.
Jeff:
Here’s the thing, though. Since those things… Like, in organic chemistry, you did all the things. You made lots of the smells…
Casey:
Yeah, banana…
Jeff:
Wait, right…
Casey:
You didn’t make lots of smells. Banana. It’s the only fucking smell you can make.
Jeff:
Wait, no, you could make, like, banana and apple and pear…
Casey:
Banana apple…
Jeff:
Right. Wait.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So the thing is, that’s what the tech is gonna be, too…
Casey:
Yeah…
Jeff:
It’s not gonna be expressive. It’s not gonna have, like, lots of modes. It’s gonna be, “Oh, here’s the Gears of War level that smells like bananas.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And here’s my sidekick and he smells like pears.
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
It’s all gonna…
Casey:
And you have to work around it with the art. So now, like, all the locusts are in these giant neoprene banana suits so you’re just like, “What the fuck is going on here?” And there’s like, “Ode to Banana” bottles set in the scene to kind of explain why… Yeah.
Jeff:
Maybe there’ll just be lots of exposition.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
It’s like, since we’ve been invaded, I can’t get the stink of banana out of me.
Casey:
Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
Yeah. You know…
Casey:
My father was killed by a banana. Ever since then, I can’t smell anything else.
Jeff:
Oh, man. I’m totally buying that for you. No…
Casey:
Come over here, Dom…
Jeff:
GDC is full of that shit on the back row…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s not just the Smell-A-Tron. It’s the shitty gestural… It’s like, “Oh, hey, you know what we did? We made a wand and you can swing it around and it moves the thing. And it’s like, you can play Harry Potter games.” And the dude’s wearing, like, Harry Potter shit.
Casey:
Yep.
Jeff:
And then there’s the dude with the funny mouse controller that, like, “Oh, look, you can feel the texture of the ball. And you can…” It’s like, “Can you play a game?” “No, but you can feel the texture…” Oh, wait…
Casey:
You know, I don’t know what crosses people’s minds. I really and truly don’t. and the reason that I don’t is if because if ever, ever, in the history of the game industry even one of these devices has succeeded, I would understand why they keep trying. But never…
Jeff:
I think…
Casey:
Ever has someone come out with a peripheral that stuck.
Jeff:
Not completely.
Casey:
Guess what. They didn’t buy the 3D glasses. They didn’t buy the computer-controlled fans. They didn’t buy the computer-controlled strobe light.
Jeff:
They didn’t buy the chair that moved around.
Casey:
They didn’t buy the chair that moved.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
They didn’t even buy the fucking force feedback joysticks which is something that seems like it actually works. They won’t buy any of this shit. It doesn’t work.
Jeff:
Mouse.
Casey:
Nobody cares. Stop. Just save yourself the embarrassment and the poor girls that you hire to dance around in front of your booth in a weird suit that has something to do with it, you know? She doesn’t know what the fuck’s going on here and neither do you so just stop that shit.
Jeff:
I think it’s just like the dudes and, like, all that’s separating me from the successful people in the world is one great idea…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And this is it. It’s like the…
Casey:
Yeah, and you know what, buddy? It is separating you. It is separating you. Not it has been separating you and soon it won’t be. It’s separated you have been separated.
Jeff:
It’s like…
Casey:
Permanently.
Jeff:
It’s like the…
Casey:
It is an impermeable membrane of…
Jeff:
What was that…
Casey:
Intelligence that you are not going to cross, okay?
Jeff:
Stop it.
Casey:
You are a sodium ion and the pump has shut down, okay. It’s done.
Jeff:
Stop it.
Casey:
Stay on your side. Stay on the fast food, burger-flipping side of the wall where you belong…
Jeff:
And keep the smelly hardware…
Casey:
And let somebody who knows what they’re doing make the future computer hardware.
Jeff:
Well, the thing that it always reminds me of is that bullet ball video I sent you…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
We’ll send a link to it.
Casey:
Bullet ball..
Jeff:
It’s just, like, these just crazy men…
Casey:
Bullet ball…
Jeff:
Inventing these things… And usually, the things that they show are just, like, the worst games where they had somebody’s brother write a basic game where there’s sprites moving…
Casey:
I’ve never seen the show other than the bullet ball clip you sent me.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So what kinds of stuff is normally on it? Games are normally on that show?
Jeff:
Oh, I’m not sure. The adventure show that he was on…
Casey:
That’s not what you’re talking about?
Jeff:
No, I meant…
Casey:
What do you mean? Oh, the games that they show to demo their game.
Jeff:
Yeah. They’re not… They’re like…
Casey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah…
Jeff:
Whatever they can cobble together by their brother’s programmer friend…
Casey:
Not necessarily. Not necessarily.
Jeff:
You know a good one?
Casey:
There is a dichotomy.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
You are missing…
Jeff:
I don’t remember a good one.
Casey:
The split.
Jeff:
Alright, what’s the split?
Casey:
There are 2 types of demo that exist at these booths.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
And since I used to have to go to the GDC, no thanks to you…
Jeff:
Yep, you worked it.
Casey:
I know.
Jeff:
You were grumpy the whole time.
Casey:
I am very aware…
Jeff:
You actually were grumpy.
Casey:
I wasn’t grumpy on the outside.
Jeff:
Okay. Let’s go with that one.
Casey:
But I was grumpy on the inside.
Jeff:
You liked to…
Casey:
I was cordial to the people who came to the booth.
Jeff:
You loved to talk. You did better. You do well at the show.
Casey:
It hurts my feet is what I’ll say about that.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Anyway, it’s a waste of 3 days is the reason I don’t like it.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s not so much the experience. It’s like, “This is a complete waste of my time.”
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
That’s beside the point. Anyway, moving along… Which is a statement not about the show floor specifically but about the Game Developers Conference in total…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But that’s beside the point. The point is there’s a dichotomy here in the people who do these demos.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Or the demo software that they use, rather.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
There is the company that is under-capitalized. And that is the company that you were referring to. It’s some fucking pong game. When it hits the paddle, the joystick moves.
Jeff:
Alright. Okay.
Casey:
Whooptie-fucking-doo, right?
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
But then there’s another one, right, where it’s like they got 15 million Dollars of VC for the iSmell…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Or whatever, right? So this is their one shot. This year, they’re spending 15 million. And either it’s gonna hit or it’s not, right?
Jeff:
[inaudible 68:35]
Casey:
So what happens there, right, is they take 2 million Dollars and they call Mark Rein on the phone and he’s like, “Of course, I’ll fucking do anything you want for 2 million Dollars. Here you go. Have the unreal engine. [ Do your whatever… ]” And they have some high-profile thing, like unreal tournament…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Running with, like… But Epic’s like… I mean, they’re smart people. They’re like, “We’re not fucking integrating your stupid smell shit,” right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s like, “You can do that yourself.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“Thanks for 2 million Dollars,” right? “We’ll send over one of our interns or something to help you with it, right?” ‘Cos they got their 2 million Dollars and we’re done.
Jeff:
Or it’s unreal and it’s turning the lights on on the laptop…
Casey:
Right. So they’ve got a really slick demo. It’s like something that professionals made, people who know what they’re doing…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
With poorly integrated version of their shit… But the demo is slick. It’s like a real unreal tournament level or something, right?
Jeff:
With iSmell just going…
Casey:
And so, it’s smelling… Yeah. And they didn’t really figure out how to get it set up for the rooms, right? So it’s all banana the whole time. But like… You’re just like, “Why do you have the game playing?” And you’re like, “Uh, eventually, it’s gonna smell like where you are but right now there’s a lot of bananas… It’s a banana plantation level.”
Jeff:
But it doesn’t work so they have an air filter behind the computer that they’ve just plugged in.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“We can’t get the demo working so we filter with [inaudible 69:54]
Casey:
Right. Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
Oh, my God. So, but…
Casey:
But that’s the dichotomy.
Jeff:
The two… The relative success ratios of these…
Casey:
Is the same.
Jeff:
Remain both zero.
Casey:
Yeah, it doesn’t matter, yeah… The only possible exception is the fact that NVIDIA bought AGEIA for reasons that I don’t know.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So somebody probably made some money there. They didn’t succeed.
Jeff:
The two…
Casey:
Their thing still fell flat on its face like everyone said it would.
Jeff:
Right. Well, the two ridiculous ones are AGEIA being bought and the Wii controller coming out and people buying 8 million Wii’s. Those 2 things are going…
Casey:
Well, no. That’s not true, though, because the Wii could… The Wii is a separate podcast but the Wii was not a peripheral, right?
Jeff:
Yeah. It came [inaudible 70:37]
Casey:
If the Xbox decided… If the 360 was like, “We’re pushing smell. It’s the Smell-D era,” you know, or it’s like what the Smell-E era, right, is what they’re pushing… Then, hey, there would be 17 million stinking controllers in the hands of gamer everywhere. So that’s gonna succeed whether it had merit or not. It’s going to because a major name is pushing it and they have a very high chance of success whether or not the idea was good.
Jeff:
What…
Casey:
But peripheral is different…
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s true.
Casey:
Because there, it has to succeed on its own merit, of which it has none. And that’s not going to happen.
Jeff:
What I like of the two halves of the dudes that are just hating life that are poorly underfunded and this is their…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
This is their lottery ticket. It’s gotta work…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
They almost always say, like, you know… They have a whole bunch of statistics. It’s like, “There’s 17 million people in the world…”
Casey:
With noses…
Jeff:
“And they all have noses.”
Casey:
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
“If we only get 1%. . .”
Casey:
Of the noses…
Jeff:
“Of the noses…”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“That’s a huge market for us.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“Please contact us for financing opportunities.” You’re like, everyone… And it’s always…
Casey:
Fun with math…
Jeff:
Yeah. And it’s always 1%. “If we can only capture 1%. . .”
Casey:
Yeah, “Where’d you get 1% from?”
Jeff:
I know, it’s…
Casey:
“Ah, it’s just a low percentage.” 1% of anything always happens, right? We don’t need to measure it. We don’t need to have any statistic that suggests that 1% is a rational number to use. It’s just… It’s so low, you can’t not get 1%. . .
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s like, you get 1% automatically. If you run for… If I ran for president tomorrow, I’d get 1% of the vote, right? I mean, who wouldn’t? Ronald McDonald… Well, Ronald McDonald will prolly get 15%.
Jeff:
There’s nothing smaller than 1%.
Casey:
There’s nothing smaller.
Jeff:
Yeah. The only thing smaller than 1% is zero.
Casey:
24 is the highest number, you know?
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
I had an awesome math thing that I… I just don’t even know what to say. I get Casual Connect magazine which is…
Jeff:
This is the second time I’ve heard of Casual Connect today.
Casey:
I get Casual Connect magazine. Well, I’m friends with Jessica Tams…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Who runs that organization.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Well, I mean, we’re not like buds or anything but I guess we used to be… ‘Cos I’m really good friends with her brother…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And I actually met her brother through her.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And we used to have dinner parties and so on.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
So I know her pretty well from the old days.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So I’m on that mailing list or whatever.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
And I work ostensibly on a casual game, sort of.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
It’s not that casual but, you know, whatever, it could be considered as such. So I get this magazine, right, but one of the things about the magazine is I’m not terribly convinced that the statistics and mathematics that are presented in the magazine pass muster. I’m always a little bit skeptical of some of the things that are reported.
Jeff:
Okay. Such as?
Casey:
Well, I’m not gonna… That is not what I’m talking about right now.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I’m just telling you that I do not buy in to the numbers that usually come with this magazine.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Maybe I’m wrong. I’m just saying the Spidey sense is tingling.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
But this issue that I just received had something very odd in it that I did not understand.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It said that there had been 340,000 or some odd downloads of this word game called [ Bamziwee ] or something…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It was some weird word game I’d never heard of.
Jeff:
Okay. Translated into letter fucker…
Casey:
Yeah, right, it was 3--… And they sold 1,200 copies. It was a post mortem of a failure, basically. That’s what it was.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
They were like, “This game failed and maybe we don’t know why or whatever but we’re talking about it,” right? And it said the average conversion rate was 2.22%. So I’m like…
Jeff:
“Wait a minute…”
Casey:
“I think I have an idea why the game might’ve failed. It’s because the people that were making it somehow were able to divide 1,200 by 300,000 and get over 2%.”
Jeff:
That’s awesome.
Casey:
And something tells me if that’s where you’re at…
Jeff:
Well, it was…
Casey:
You’re probably going to have a problem with other aspects of the game development process which can be challenging.
Jeff:
Yes. There’s other numbers. It was a letter game. I mean…
Casey:
That is true. They were not trying to design a math game because that would’ve been probably zero average conversion rate.
Jeff:
If they…
Casey:
Or rather, 100% conversion rate, who knows? 130% conversion rate. We have people buying the game who never got the game.
Jeff:
No…
Casey:
We don’t even know how that works.
Jeff:
“Our conversion rate was QT%. Yeah. It was Q. What? That’s in the… Wait… What? That’s not a number? It isn’t? Wait…”
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
No, I’d never heard of that magazine and I’d still never seen it and Dave was talking… Brought it up today. I laughed at it and I was like, “You know, the inner product of casual thing would be, like, you know, new instructions…”
Casey:
How to install shockwave, yeah…
Jeff:
No, I was thinking more like, “Hey, you know, we’re gonna talk about some high--… Some really cutting edge assembly code today with this new thing called… Instruction set called MMX. Now, careful, most your market won’t be able to support MMX but…”
Casey:
Okay, back it up. Are you on crack?
Jeff:
I’m just assuming…
Casey:
There is nobody in the casual game space…
Jeff:
I am…
Casey:
Who even knows what assembly language is.
Jeff:
I’m just backing up 20 years from now…
Casey:
No. No, but that’s not what it is. It is not the game industry [ minus 20 ]. It’s a totally different thing.
Jeff:
Okay. It’s the game industry divided by assembly? So that you remove the assembly from the top and it’s all that remains?
Casey:
Oh, God.
Jeff:
You factor out the assembly language from game development…
Casey:
I say this and yet letter fucker blue screened the machine.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
So I should be careful about suggesting that it’s not cutting edge because, at least as far as Microsoft is concerned, it sure as shit fucking is.
Jeff:
It’s hardcore. Yeah, that’s right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Oh, my goodness. I’m beat. We’ve talked for, like, 3 hours.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Oh, my gosh.
Casey:
Let it not be said that we do not provide…
Jeff:
The entertainment…
Casey:
Quantity…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
If not quality… At least, we are providing quantity for sure.
Jeff:
Yep. This is gonna have to hold everybody until… So for us, it’ll be a long time. For them, it’ll not be long…
Casey:
Yeah, it’s not gonna have to hold anybody. It’s gonna appear to them like we just had one delayed by 2 days…
Jeff:
Yeah. That’s good…
Casey:
But uh…
Jeff:
This is the end of part 2 of our May 7th poodcast…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The 2-parter…
Casey:
How are we gonna number these? Are they still gonna be sequential or is there gonna be a secret…
Jeff:
Yeah… No, let’s sequential…
Casey:
Like, 9.1 or 9.2 or something like that?
Jeff:
No, sequential…
Casey:
What are we on? I don’t even know what number it is.
Jeff:
I have no idea.
Casey:
Way to go.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Way to go. And I’m making fun of them for not knowing numbers. I can’t even remember which one we’re on.
Jeff:
Yeah. We’ll figure it out.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Alright, everybody. Well, be sure and email us and…
Casey:
Where are they gonna email us?
Jeff:
At Podcast@MollyRocket.com
Casey:
Podcast@MollyRocket.com
Jeff:
And we will see you a week from when you’re hearing this and 10 days from when we’re saying it.
Casey:
It’s the pre-taped call-in show.
Jeff:
Totally, it is.
Casey:
The pre-taped call-in show.
Jeff:
Totally. Alright, thanks, everybody.
Casey:
Take it easy.
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casey muratori
the jeff and casey show - season 1 - episode 11
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