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The Technician
No Imperfections Noted
The Jeff and Casey Show
Jeff and Casey Time
Casey Muratori
Seattle, WA
A Classic F.O.E. Mistake
"It's what they used to call a bum."
Original air date: April 13rd, 2008
Topics. Haircuts. Engineers. Conversations. How to confuse Dostoyevsky with Nabokov. How not to confuse Karate Kid with Step Up 2: The Streets.
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Transcript
Jeff:
Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Jeff & Casey Show.
Casey:
Hello, hello.
Jeff:
This is our 7th episode, our index 6, I guess…
Casey:
Index 6.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
It’s Podcast [6].
Jeff:
Yep. We’re C style not Pascal.
Casey:
That’s right. Because Pascal is bullshit.
Jeff:
I learned on Pascal. I love a good Pascal.
Casey:
Yes, did learn on Pascal, too, I’m sad to say.
Jeff:
Oh, really?
Casey:
Yeah. Borland Pascal…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
On, like an old AT clone, I think.
Jeff:
Yep, that was me, too.
Casey:
You were… Well, I have to say, though. I just know this. I can totally tell this just from talking… You are a way better programmer than I was at that age, no question. Like, I was not a good programmer when I was younger. I did not know what was going on pretty much.
Jeff:
I don’t know. It’s hard to say. I think I started doing professional programming very young. So there was a little bit of self-preservation involved like… I mean, probably the 3rd or 4th big program I ever wrote was for somebody so I…
Casey:
That’s cool. Like, that’s so much better. Like, I could not have written something for somebody. I was not good enough when I was little.
Jeff:
Yeah, well I mean, it wasn’t good code. You’d be embarrassed by it now but it was…
Casey:
That’s all codes.
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s true. Someday, you’ll look back on a piece of code and go, “Aw…”
Casey:
I’ve never heard someone go like, “Wow, the code in this project just finished is awesome. It’s really good code.” And if I do hear that, I’m like, “This person’s a fucking idiot. I’m not gonna hire this dude.”
Jeff:
Yeah. Post mortem. Number 1, code [inaudible 1:33]
Casey:
Code, pristine, on time code — never seen in a post mortem ever.
Jeff:
Yes. That was a good action.
Casey:
No, I make up for lack of inherent programming talent by the fact that I just refuse to stop doing it I think is the key. [inaudible 1:51] just forever…
Jeff:
Well, yeah. I mean, programming is something you just get better and better at. So that is one nice thing. It is something that rewards people that do it a lot and are somewhat self-reflective. I mean, if you could look at code, what did or did not work…
Casey:
Yes, that’s true.
Jeff:
I mean, if you just… Hey, you just kick out code and never really think about it. It’ll always be shit.
Casey:
That’s probably true.
Jeff:
But I mean, if you can go…
Casey:
If you’re like, “I know what’s bad about this and I could try something different the next time…”
Jeff:
Yeah. Then you just continually get better…
Casey:
I agree. It helps, too, that I’m… I tend to be a pessimist or a “glass is half-empty” kind of thinking whenever I’m in engineering mode. I’m just like, “I can tell you everything that sucks about something.” So that tends to be good, too, for improvement ‘cos you’re like, there’s never a time when I’m like, “I did a really good job on that.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I always know all the things I fucked up. So that helps, too, ‘cos then the next time, you’re aware of those things, right?
Jeff:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would agree.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That’s super valuable.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
So it is April 13th… Or… Well, I guess it’s the 14th now. We rolled over ‘cos…
Casey:
’Cos I was so late is what you’re telling me.
Jeff:
You were late. Yeah, that’s right.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
You were supposed to be over in 3 hours and then…
Casey:
I was over in 3 hours.
Jeff:
No, no. That’s not true. You were supposed to be over in 10 minutes and it was like…
Casey:
I never said 10 minutes. I never said that.
Jeff:
“I’m coming over.” And then, implied is the 3 and a half-hour delay.
Casey:
I meant that I was coming over at some point which is true. I mean, here I am, right?
Jeff:
Uh-huh. I’m gonna have a Jamba Juice ready for you next time.
Casey:
Oh, fuck that. I’m never going to a Jamba Juice again.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Mark my words — Never again.
Jeff:
You actually… You tend to do that. When you have a bad experience, that’s it.
Casey:
That is it. You get one shot. If it’s bad enough, then that’s it. You are off the list.
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s totally true.
Casey:
I don’t care if they’re making 14 karat gold smoothies over there for $3.95. They can fucking pour that shit down the drain because I do not want anything to do with it.
Jeff:
Free blow jobs with every Jamba Juice.
Casey:
Right. Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
“Oh, right, like that’s gonna be my last one,” you know.
Casey:
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
No matter what, they ain’t getting my business.
Casey:
Yeah. Are we gonna… You know what I just realized? ‘Cos we can talk about oral sex in this podcast. I don’t really want to.
Jeff:
Okay. I’m fine…
Casey:
So I’m just pre-putting the Kai-Bosch on that.
Jeff:
Alright. Okay, just if it comes up.
Casey:
Maybe we need to have an oral sex podcast at some point.
Jeff:
Well, okay so…
Casey:
Much like all things, I think I have some kind of fucked up opinion about oral sex, it doesn’t jive with the male standard.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So we’ll [ table ] that to another time.
Jeff:
We’ll come back to another bit?
Casey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeff:
Alright. So I was going to tell you about I went and got my haircut today.
Casey:
You did?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
I didn’t even know that you got your hair cut because as far as I’m concerned, in the male circle of friends that I frequent, your hair is the most precise. Your hair looks like it’s exactly right.
Jeff:
Okay, precise… It’s always super poofy…
Casey:
No. It looks like it’s been meticulously done to me. That’s my opinion of your hair.
Jeff:
It keeps getting… So it goes through when, like, it’s short, I can make it spiky…
Casey:
Okay. But that’s how I think of your hair is spiky.
Jeff:
But when it gets longer and then if I spike it up, it’s like [ bigger ]. It’s really high and I look like a crazy man. And then, because I hate getting my haircut… I’ll talk about why in a second…
Casey:
And then you get Rick Rolled? You are Rick Rolling?
Jeff:
Yeah… Well, no… Then I start using the spiky stuff to hold it down.
Casey:
Oh, so the opposite of what the spiky stuff was doing before is doing the other direction?
Jeff:
Yes, so then it starts looking kind of molded. And then finally, I give in. So I had… I didn’t have… In fact, I’ve gotten used to a particular haircut person that always does it…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And that’s better. At least, like, I know… Like, there’s a conversation where you’re just like…
Casey:
Where do you get your hair done?
Jeff:
You know that one down the… What’s it called? I don’t remember what it’s called.
Casey:
Where is it?
Jeff:
Just down in Kirkland… I think you went there once.
Casey:
Bombay Cutters?
Jeff:
Yeah, yeah, that’s it.
Casey:
Yeah. There was a girl there. I want to say her name was Crystal…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I have…
Jeff:
Crystal…
Casey:
Yes. I have never walked out of a hair salon or whatever you want to call it… I have never walked out and went like, “Wow, this is a great haircut.” Except once and that was the one time.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
I was like, shocked, because I’d never had that experience.
Jeff:
You like a good haircut?
Casey:
I would love to go to a hair place and get a good haircut but it never happens except this one time. Now, if I had any brains at all, which I obviously don’t but let’s say that I did, I would have immediately gone over to Red West and demanded that they put me in the cyber scanner so that I could have…
Jeff:
Oh, I see…
Casey:
The exact 3-dimensional specifications for my ideal haircut. Now, I don’t know if that would work because [ there’s a ] [inaudible 7:10] thing in there and they probably can’t pick up the follicles. I would basically have to do a back salve…
Jeff:
Due to patent problems…
Casey:
Well, no. I would have to do a salve to get from the hair surface, the iso-surface of the hair back to the individual follicle lengths…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
Right? This is all in my master plans to develop a haircutting robot which always reproduces the identical haircut that you have specified at all times, yeah.
Jeff:
I see. Well, when I was in Florida a couple weeks ago, my stepmom and my brother-in-law’s wife… Er… My brother’s wife… Wait, what is a brother-in-law’s wife?
Casey:
Wow, you were in the south.
Jeff:
Yeah, exactly.
Casey:
You can’t even remember who’s related to who.
Jeff:
They were talking about haircuts and how… When they…
Casey:
At any time where you’re like, “She’s kinda hot,” ‘cos then you’re just like, you know it’s time to get on to the return flight…
Jeff:
We need to get back.
Casey:
Get on to the return flight. Call up the airport and fly standby if you have to. As long as it’s not Alaska Airlines or an MD80, get on the plane.
Jeff:
Get on the plane.
Casey:
Just do it. Yeah.
Jeff:
Well, no. Their discussion about haircuts were very different and they never go in to get their haircut without examples of what they want. So they bring in, like, clippings from magazines and say, “I want this on this front and this,” or something…
Casey:
Oh, okay. I see.
Jeff:
And it doesn’t matter because the haircut person does whatever they want…
Casey:
Anyway…
Jeff:
Yeah. So they’re just like, “You know, I really like my bangs long,” is what they’ll say. And then the first thing the person does is like, wham…
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
And says, “It looks better this way.” And you’re like…
Casey:
No, it doesn’t…
Jeff:
“I…” And…
Casey:
Hairstyling is not immune to the 10% rule, you know what I mean?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So it’s like 90% of hairstylists are gonna suck because 90% of anyone in any profession sucks. It’s just true. There’s never been a truer thing about life than the 10% rule. And scientifically, I don’t know that it’s been quantified so maybe it’s not 10%. But some small percent less than 20, greater than zero, is the number of people who are really good at their job…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So chances are, your hairstylist sucks. That’s just chances are.
Jeff:
Well, yeah, I think a lot of getting a haircut that you like is less convincing the person to do exactly what…
Casey:
Right, than finding the person who has the same opinion about your hair as you do.
Jeff:
Or even better or, more exactly, finding a haircut that if it’s screwed up, it’s not that bad anyway, right?
Casey:
So your tolerances…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Expanding your interval of acceptable haircuts…
Jeff:
Like if you do spiky hair, then it can be all fucked up because it’s all spiky. It’s like if it was longer and shorter, it’s like, “Oh, it’s supposed to be that way.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So that’s a nice little thing. But yeah, I mean, I would love to… Well, I usually shave my head a couple times a year.
Casey:
I’ve seen you do that. You look kind of like a basketball player when you do that. You look a little bit like sort of… One of those harder core basketball dudes. Not a thug, necessarily, but you look way harder core than you normally do.
Jeff:
Thug life, baby.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
When you had that skullcap… When you were wearing that skullcap, you were definitely the Whitest thug on the block.
Jeff:
Well, the nice thing about…
Casey:
Or the thuggiest White on the block…
Jeff:
Well, yeah, it’s… White bald people especially stubbly bald people are somewhat scary because you’re like, “Dude, it’s skin head.” And if it’s not…
Casey:
Oh, that’s right. You have a ste--… That’s interesting that there is a negative White stereotype that you can fall into there where people assume that you’re a punk. Yeah.
Jeff:
Although I like it that they don’t… You have less interactions with people which is… My problem with the haircut which is why I shave my head, which is why I try to self-trim my own hair when it gets really poofy, I’ll just take the ear trimmer and like… And that’ll get me another week. ‘Cos I just… I don’t like interacting with the humans.
Casey:
At all…
Jeff:
Not at all. But I mean, in…
Casey:
The human race?
Jeff:
The human race in general. So a friend of mine…
Casey:
So you will podcast…
Jeff:
I’m only talking to you…
Casey:
And we’ll go out to dinner or something… So I’m okay ‘cos I’m not a member of the human race in some way? Is that what happens?
Jeff:
No, I’ve gotten to a point where I think I’m comfortable with your weirdnesses that I’m…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Finding out everyone else’s is too difficult.
Casey:
Is bad… Okay.
Jeff:
It’s just too hard.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And it’s so rarely worth it which I want to just…
Casey:
So what you’re saying is I’m in your army of 2, right?
Jeff:
Yeah. You are in my arm of 2.
Casey:
Okay. Awesome. You can be my wingman any time, Jeff.
Jeff:
We’re gonna storm the castle.
Casey:
Alright. Okay, you don’t like interacting with humans.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
This includes your hairdresser. Now, that’s a problem because you are with your hairdresser for 30 minutes and you have to do something. I mean, there’s no getting out of that.
Jeff:
Sometimes it’s even longer. If I get my hair blondey, then it’s like longer…
Casey:
Oh, if you get it dyed? Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Although sometimes, if you’re lucky, they put you over in a corner to dye and they leave you in the corner to dye, if you will. And then…
Jeff:
And they’ll come back…
Casey:
I’ve never had my hair dyed but I’ve seen that person kind of sitting over there. You wouldn’t really have to interact at that point, right? Or do?
Jeff:
Sometimes what’s worse…
Casey:
They want to chat?
Jeff:
Is if they want to chat while you’re wearing the funny little hat that you put the thing on because you look like… The hat looks like a baby’s bonnet is what it looks like.
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
And you’re just sitting there and you’re like, “Yeah, so anyway, I’m rad.” And you’re not. You’re not rad at all.
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
Yeah. But yeah, just in general, I hate being put in that situation at all because small talk-y situations I don’t find it interesting.
Casey:
I could not agree more.
Jeff:
It’s just difficult. And… I mean, you get to know the person, they’re nice, and you’re more comfortable but I always find myself just down conversation paths that are dead ends.
Casey:
Well, I guess what I would say is that it’s not so much… At least in my opinion, it’s not difficult. It’s boring. That’s my feeling.
Jeff:
For me, it’s actual work. I’m reasonably…
Casey:
Oh, it’s work. Okay. I see.
Jeff:
I think I’m good at it. And it’s…
Casey:
I think you are, too.
Jeff:
I think it’s just because it’s practice of running a business, you have to do that all the time…
Casey:
That’s true.
Jeff:
And if you’re good at it, there’s rewards in being good at that kind of thing…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
But, no, it’s work for me. Like, if I have to… At the end of the day at GDC, I’m freaking exhausted. I’ve been like…
Casey:
I don’t blame you.
Jeff:
I have to just turn it on all day.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
So, yeah. It’s work. Now for you, it’s not. I’ve seen you. You can go. You love… You can talk to anybody for… Like we will go on cab rides together and you will talk to the cabbie the entire time.
Casey:
Well, this is the thing, though, right, I sort of disagree with this slightly.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It’s difficult for me to deconstruct my own mental sort of behavior, right, because that’s… You can’t be 100% objective about something that you yourself are doing, right? But there’s a couple factors in play there, right? One of them is… I don’t even know how to break this down. There are so many things.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
First of all, one thing that I will say is that I do enjoy entertaining other people or attempting to.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So one thing that’s true about that is that if I’m with someone else… Like let’s say I’m with you, then I do… There is a positive reward in that for me which is that if I can enter into a funny engagement with the cab driver…
Jeff:
I see. Yeah.
Casey:
Then I make you laugh and I like that, right? That makes me feel successful about the conversation, right? That’s a positive reward.
Jeff:
Okay, for somebody else’s amusement?
Casey:
Right. So if I’m with people I like…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Then the chance goes up that I’m gonna clown around because that’s just like… You know, I mean, that’s the standard male thing to do, right?
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
To be the clown… So you get attention or appear sociable. I mean, you know, that’s the normal thing to do, right?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So that’s sort of different than the hairdresser situation ‘cos the hairdresser situation is a different situation in my mind. That is a situation where, at least for me, there is definitely zero pay-off, right, because there is no one there for me to impress that I care about impressing that I want to think fondly of me or even the purely altruistic “I just want everyone to have a good time”. None of that is there. There is no one to impress, no one to entertain, no good time to be had. All there is is a hairdresser who might be entertained by this conversation. That’s it. I know, going into that conversation, that there is nothing in it for me.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
There is nothing in it for me. So if I do try to have that conversation, I know that it’s gonna be…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The only time I will get anything out of the hairdresser thing is when I try to improve my own stories that I tell ‘cos I like to tell stories.
Casey:
So it’s like rehearsal.
Jeff:
Yeah, it is.
Casey:
It’s like, “Oh, this, I’ll burn this one.”
Jeff:
No, no, I’ll be…
Casey:
“I don’t care about the hairdresser. I’m gonna burn this one.”
Jeff:
No, I’ll be like, “I’m gonna tell her some story about growing up and the [ car ]…”
Casey:
Then tune it…
Jeff:
Right, yeah, and tune it. Like, “No, that didn’t work.”
Casey:
Didn’t go over?
Jeff:
No. Yeah. That’s about it. The other thing I’ll do…
Casey:
So if you get all the hairdressers listening in, then you know that you’ve ratcheted up the story. The story’s at a good place.
Jeff:
Yeah. If I make them laugh, I know, “Okay, I’ve got something that’s kind of…”
Casey:
Right. But if they’re just kind of like, “Oh, that’s nice.” And you’re like, “Ugh, what did I do wrong there? Okay, I’ve got to work on the ending…”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
So that is about it. Sometimes, I will make up stuff completely just to see how much they’ll believe.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“Yeah, so me and my friend were in a car and we had…” You know, you just make up crazy stuff like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah…” Or usually, it’ll start with something true…
Casey:
And it kinda morphs into less true?
Jeff:
And then like, see if I can get it… Yeah. Like, “Yeah, so we put a whole bunch of dogs in the back and we were trying to take them into the other state because dogs are free in Wyoming.” And just see until they’ll go like, “What?”
Casey:
“What the fuck are you talking about?”
Jeff:
“Uh, never mind.” Because a lot of the times, they’re not listening anyway…
Casey:
Yeah. This is a lot like your emails that I get from you.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
“Yeah, so they found this 500-pound squirrel in Montana.” I’m like, “No, they didn’t do that.” It turns out…
Jeff:
It wasn’t a squirrel, it was a road…
Casey:
Yeah, it’s not a squirrel, it was a raccoon and it wasn’t… It was because it swollen… It was dead and it swelled up with water or something, you know…
Jeff:
No, see my… See, things in my memory are way more entertaining than reality.
Casey:
Yeah. Well, I think your RSS feeds get mushed into one.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So you read, like, 300 RSS feeds in the morning and then you come away with that with 5 stories.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
And they’re just all cross-wired. Like, the most interesting ones got built into this Frankenstein feed that has just ridiculous shit going on.
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Yep, that’s the best way to go.
Casey:
Okay. Anyway, back to your hairdresser…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
So, I mean, here’s the thing, right, in my experience…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I kind of know or I have a number of friends who I enjoy talking to.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
Right? I like to hear myself talk. I am a narcissistic speaker, okay. That’s one of the reasons I enjoy this podcast is if because if I’m talking, I like to hear the sound of my own voice, okay?
Jeff:
So you’re our number 1 fan.
Casey:
Yes, that’s true.
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
I will always forever be my number 1 fan which doesn’t make any sense to me. This makes no sense to me because usually this goes right with the stuff I talked about in the beginning of the podcast. I think everything I do sucks. I should do it better. Somehow, these things do not conflict in my brain, right? I’m like, “This podcast is terrible and not funny.” And I love it. And I’m gonna listen to it all the time, right? Somehow, my brain does not find cognitive [ distance ] with those 2 things.
Jeff:
That’s awesome.
Casey:
The ability to point out all the negative things in something and the ability to enjoy it are not conflicting in my head.
Jeff:
That’s awesome. Okay.
Casey:
Yeah. But anyway, so I like hearing the sound of my own voice much like I find this is true with other people where I will watch a show or something and I am aware that the only reason that I’m enjoying that show is because I like the sound of the person’s voice or their delivery…
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Like, House. That show is fucking terrible.
Jeff:
Yeah. Right.
Casey:
It’s the worst-written show.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It is so bad.
Jeff:
If it wasn’t…
Casey:
But Hugh Lowrie is amazing and I like hearing him talk, right?
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
And you know you’re a narcissist when you get that same feeling from yourself. You’re like, “I could listen to this podcast all day. It sounds great. I love the things I’m saying.”
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
“It’s just got a good sound to it.”
Jeff:
“It feels right.”
Casey:
“At the end of the day, it feels good,” right? Yeah. So that’s pretty much the case. So you would think based on that premise, I would like talking to random people and I feel that probably somewhere in my life, that was probably true.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Or started out true. What has happened to me, however, because of that, consistently negatively reinforces me to not do that at all, right?
Jeff:
Wait, you’re saying you have bad…
Casey:
Very bad. It is always bad. If humans… You know, random reinforcement schedule…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
[inaudible 20:28] speaking, behaviorally speaking… It would not take very many times for me to be positively rewarded in order for me to always believe this is a good idea, right?
Jeff:
Okay. Talk to everybody.
Casey:
You randomly chat someone up and you become fast friends or you go out with that person, they’re your girlfriend for a while.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
That would stick in your brain as, like, “This is a good thing to do.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
That wouldn’t have to… Maybe only even once, if that happened, that’s enough to stick in your brain as, like, “This is a good thing,” right? But unfortunately, I guess, I was born fucked up and so these conversations that I have with random people are always terrible. They’re just terrible. It’s like pulling teeth to do them.
Jeff:
What do you mean?
Casey:
Well, like, it’s always…
Jeff:
I know some funny examples but give me a good one.
Casey:
Well, it’s just… It’s so boring, right? I’ll give you some examples.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
But it’s like the stuff that interest me…
Jeff:
Well, boring is different than like, getting in like… Whoa, are these scary conversations where you’re like…
Casey:
Well, I guess that’s the odd thing. With me, it’s usually both.
Jeff:
Wow, okay.
Casey:
It is usually both a boring and distasteful conversation, right. Like, it’s usually a person who I don’t really want to get to know and a conversation that is questionable or at the very least uninteresting, right?
Jeff:
“So, I dyed my pubes this morning” kind of thing?
Casey:
Yeah, pretty much. Well, here’s the thing, right, the number of things that I’m interested in, right… I’m actually interested in a lot of things, I guess, at the end of the day, right?
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
But they’re usually all technical or scientific in some way, right?
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
Like I want to talk about something that’s particularly intricate, usually, right? I’d like to… If I don’t learn something, not a fact but learn something about the real world like technology or something during conversation, I’m not that interested in it at the end of the day, right?
Jeff:
I see. Okay.
Casey:
So the conversations that I usually get in, for example, once in a while I try to convince myself that I’m wrong about this, right?
Jeff:
Okay. And you give it a shot.
Casey:
Right. So usually, I… I mean, I still will chat now and again but I don’t go out of my way to make conversation because it usually ends poorly. And sometimes, I’ll sit down and go, “No, okay. You’re… It’s just past experience. You should talk to people. That’s what you’re supposed to do. It’s fine.” Right?
Jeff:
Right. Okay.
Casey:
Guys… Single men are supposed to chat up women and it must go well for somebody, I guess, right?
Jeff:
Okay. Somebody somewhere…
Casey:
It does not go well for me, no. It doesn’t go well at all. So I go… Like this one time, I go to a coffee shop, right. And normally, what I do at the coffee shop is I’m gonna go sit somewhere and work.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So I’m just kind of doing it to get out and about so I don’t work at an office. It’s kind of refreshing to be amid the hustle and the bustle.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
So you have the public library being, of course, my favorite place now, as you know. But before that, I used to go to a coffee shop.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So I go to a coffee shop. And instead of sitting at a table, at a desk and working…
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
I went and sat on the couch. I’m like, “I’ll just chat up whoever sits…”
Jeff:
Oh, because somebody will sit on the couch with you…
Casey:
Someone will sit on the couch with me and I’ll chat with them or something.
Jeff:
I see. Okay.
Casey:
So someone does sit on the couch with me.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
And it’s just some girl who’s… She’s got a laptop there and she’s updating her MySpace page or something.
Jeff:
Ooh, okay…
Casey:
I don’t know. Yeah, no shit, huh?
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Bad sign.
Casey:
Yeah. Sign # 1.
Jeff:
The MIDI starts up.
Casey:
Yeah, something like this, right, updating it.
Jeff:
That’s like institutionalized ugliness. Like, you can’t make a good page…
Casey:
Yes, exactly. They sort of provided the exact right set of constraints to make it so that no matter how good of a graphic designer’s eye you might have, your page will be ugly.
Jeff:
“Please select from one of these templates.”
Casey:
Yeah, it’s like, “How bright pink did you want the background and which one of these 80’s songs poorly converted to MIDI did you want playing?”
Jeff:
“At what percentage of people do you want to go into seizures when you’re…”
Casey:
No, I would say it’s more like, “How many simultaneously playing videos do you want to start when you go to the page?”
Jeff:
That’s right.
Casey:
For starters…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So first they have to, like, hunt and peck for it to shut them off in order to hear any one of them correctly.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But I want to say one thing that I… There was a prank recently were a dude uploaded a whole bunch of animated Gifs to the site for people who have… What’s the thing when they see the flashing lights…
Casey:
Epilepsy?
Jeff:
Yeah. He uploaded a whole bunch of crazy Gifs to the forum. And the person was trying to delete them as fast as she could…
Casey:
Oh, my God. Who does that?
Jeff:
I don’t know.
Casey:
That is so cruel.
Jeff:
I know. And it’s awesome. But anyway, continue… So, yeah, the epilepsy… MyEpilepsy.com homepage…
Casey:
Oh, yeah, no… So she’s updating some page. And like I was saying, somehow I was born without the engineered part of the brain that prevents you from being able to talk to someone in this situation.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So I start talking. “So what are you doing?” She’s like, “Oh, I’m just updating my journal so it’s got my travel stuff in there.” I’m like, “Oh, traveling. So, you’re not from Seattle. Where are you from?” She’s like, “Indiana,” I think was what she said. I don’t really remember.
Jeff:
Okay. Sure.
Casey:
Something… Kentucky, whatever.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I’m like, “Oh, so are you just visiting Seattle? Did you move here?” And she’s like, “Oh, I’m visiting some friends.” And I was like, “Oh, how long are you visiting? Are you in school or something? Do you have a… Do you work out here?” And she’s like, “No, no, just hanging out.” And I’m like, “Oh, what do you do for money? Do you just have, like, wealthy parents or just take some savings or something like that?” She’s like, “No, I’m freegan.”
Jeff:
Oh, awesome. Did you know what they were?
Casey:
No. I’m like, “A what?” She’s like, “No, I’m freegan.” I’m like, “Oh, okay. I don’t know what that is.” She’s like, “You know, just we live out of the garbage, basically.” And I’m like, “Okay.” She takes off her glasses and she hands them to me. She’s like, “See, look at these. I found these. Someone had thrown them out.” I’m like, holding the glasses, and they’re kind of like fucked up, metal, like, you know, shit… And I’m just like, “Oh, okay.” And I hand them back, right. And I’m like, “So… Well, okay…” And I don’t… You know, I don’t really have anywhere to go from this. So I’m just gonna let her talk.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
I was like, I need to quiet down…
Jeff:
’Cos a freegan is what they just used to call a bum. That’s what it is. They are just…
Casey:
Oh, right. Yeah. It is… Yeah. Which is… At some…
Jeff:
Yeah. Bums with internet access…
Casey:
Are freegans.
Jeff:
And Birkenstocks…
Casey:
Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
Equals…
Casey:
No, what happened was our garbage got better, right? It used to be that people didn’t throw so much shit out. But now, people throw out perfectly good items because they’ve been convinced to buy new things.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
So freegans… The bums became upscale. They got fucking… They’ve got old iPods whose batteries only last for 15 minutes but it’s still perfectly good high tech appliance, right? I mean, that’s where we’re at, right? So at some level, I kind of admire this. I’m like, “Wow, good for you. You’re kind of like the bacteria that necrotizes things in the forest that have fallen down. It serves a purpose,” right?
Jeff:
Right. But meanwhile, you’re sitting next to her on the couch, stuck…
Casey:
Meanwhile, I am sitting next to her on the couch. I am a little bit stuck, right? She proceeds to tell me about the fact that some guy was trying to hit on her before…
Jeff:
Oh, God.
Casey:
And she was having trouble getting rid of him. He was sitting around here before. Then that’s why she wasn’t sitting here. She had moved away because some guy was hitting on her. And now, she has come back because he has left. Okay?
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
And I’m like, “Did you try telling him that you were a freegan, that you live out of the trash? ‘Cos I think that might’ve helped, right? That might’ve been a good way to decrease his interest level in you. Speaking for myself…”
Jeff:
“As mine is going down…”
Casey:
Right. “Which, to be honest, had never gone up in the first place. But it went from zero to negative somewhere around the part where you’re, like, hold this item I picked out of the trash.” Right?
Jeff:
This is awesome.
Casey:
So this is typical, in my opinion, of what happens to me when I talk to people, right?
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
And that’s a particularly glaring example.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But I’ll give you another example that’s less glaring but still illustrates the problem that I have.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Which I am open to suggestions, okay, so if I’m doing something wrong, please tell me.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Because that is fine by me. And it might just be that I need to somehow convince myself to be interested in other things but I don’t feel that’s necessary because I was born interested in certain stuff and I don’t feel like I should have to constantly pretend to give a fuck about the stuff that everyone wants to talk about because it’s uninteresting. I don’t know how they’re interested in it. Are they interested in it? Because I don’t understand. It seems like a wasted life if you’re walking around talking about this sort of shit with people.
Jeff:
Okay. I just don’t, but continue.
Casey:
Yeah. Anyway, this is the same place but before this… I don’t go there so much anymore ‘cos she’s always there and she says hi all the time.
Jeff:
[ Oh, so now one of your places ]…
Casey:
Right. Yeah.
Jeff:
You’re like, “No, you can’t have my ear buds. They’re not ready.” I see.
Casey:
Anyway, different time, same place. This time, I’m not sitting on the couch.
Jeff:
Some mossy squash from my garbage…
Casey:
Right? Yeah, exactly. I’m just sitting at this table but there’s two seats at it.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Right? And I’m working.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
So a girl comes over and sits on the table.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Which is fine by me. I’m listening to the thing, whatever… And she was pretty good-looking so I’m not gonna complain, right? That’s fine. Go right ahead.
Jeff:
Just be quiet.
Casey:
Right. But there was the mistake, see. If I had just been quiet, everything would have been fine, right?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Everything would have gone fine. I was not quiet. At some point, I took a break from what I was doing and I took my headphones off. And I looked at what she was doing. And it always starts this way. Don’t look at what the other person’s doing. That would be my takeaway from both of these situations. Because when you look at something and you’re a chatty person, your next step is to ask about that thing.
Jeff:
Sure.
Casey:
And that’s when the conversation happens. So if you just didn’t do that step, then the conversation never happens.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
So I’m like, “What language is that?” ‘Cos it was written in some fucked up font that I didn’t understand.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
It was all messed up. So she’s like, “It’s Russian.” I was like, “Wow, you read Russian? That’s pretty awesome.” She’s like, “Yeah. I’ve been kind of learning Russian.”
Jeff:
So she’s a Russian girl?
Casey:
No. She’s been learning Russian.
Jeff:
Oh, I see. Okay. ‘Cos Russian girls are Kryptonite for me.
Casey:
Oh.
Jeff:
Something about it. I don’t know what it is. Eyebrows or something….
Casey:
Kryptonite hot?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Really?
Jeff:
Yes, that’s it.
Casey:
So I shouldn’t have fixed you up with this girl because she wasn’t Russian? Or the fact that she learned Russian is good enough?
Jeff:
No, I’m just saying that’s…
Casey:
She’s been to Russia. Does that help?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
She has to be Russian?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Is this some Cold War bullshit? Like a sexy enemy kind of a thing? What’s going on? Tell me about this.
Jeff:
Once, I had a housekeeper that came and cleaned our house…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, we hired them for $200.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
She was probably 300 pounds…
Casey:
You were still like, “I’ve got to get with this girl.”
Jeff:
I was like…
Casey:
“Clean my…”
Jeff:
Wow. Yeah… No, like these crazy, crazy blue eyes and these crazy eyebrows. I don’t know.
Casey:
That is so interesting. I did not know that.
Jeff:
Nope, Kryptonite. So… Yeah, I mean…
Casey:
That gives a new meaning to when people say that, like, programmers are attracted to Asians. It’s like, “Yeah, only just to the East of the Ural mountains but yes…”
Jeff:
Well technically, they are…
Casey:
Still Asian…
Jeff:
Yeah, I mean, Tom… Every time I say, like, “Oh, hey, it’s the Asian Art Museum is near us or something like that. He’s like, “You Americans”, like annoyed at me because…
Casey:
What? Why is he annoyed?
Jeff:
Asians… When he refers… When a British… I’m assuming it’s British people…
Casey:
Okay. I see.
Jeff:
When he refers to Asians, it’s not… Like to me, Asian is Chinese and Japanese. To Tom, it’s…
Casey:
Right. It’s anyone east of the Ural mountains. It’s Asia.
Jeff:
It’s Russians and it’s Chinese, Indian…
Casey:
Yeah, India, Pakistan…
Jeff:
All of that is just what that means…
Casey:
Yeah. Sure. Well, to them (and all geology and classification in the world)…
Jeff:
Except us Americans.
Casey:
Except us Americans, yeah. And that’s definitely true.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
If someone asked you, “Was she Asian?” You probably would’ve said no.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
And the other person probably would have agreed after finding out that they were Russian.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Neither of which may be true because she might be from the Ukraine… I imagine that’s east of Ural. I don’t know Russian geography very well.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Moscow I think is still in Europe, right? Isn’t that west?
Jeff:
I don’t know these things.
Casey:
You know, I don’t know. I have no fucking clue. No, I don’t, either. I have no idea.
Jeff:
Every time we go into one of these things, I listen to it later and look it up and I’m like, “Oh, God, we just fucking way off…”
Casey:
Like, “Wow, we were way the fuck off.” Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah. So let’s just…
Casey:
Geography’s never been my strong suit.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
For the record.
Jeff:
I lost my geography book.
Casey:
But you see me kicking out the Ural mountains shit, though?
Jeff:
Yeah, pretty good.
Casey:
That’s hardcore. That’s old school, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Separator between Europe and Asia…
Jeff:
Uh-huh, you were working it.
Casey:
I was working it. Okay, so anyway…
Jeff:
Anyway… So you’re talking to the girl writing in Russian…
Casey:
I’m talking to the girl…
Jeff:
Yeah. They have some fucked up letters. Like, sometimes they have…
Casey:
Oh, there’s all these weird letter. They’re upside down, left to right…
Jeff:
There’s numbers…
Casey:
Backwards… Crazy…
Jeff:
I think the number 4 is a letter.
Casey:
Sure. Oh, yeah, could be. It’s probably not the number 4, though. It’s probably the number 4 with the crazy things shooting out of it like a spike
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You know?
Jeff:
They just..
Casey:
Four with a spike, yeah, that means “grr” or something. Yeah.
Jeff:
Oh, no… Yeah, I remember it was a 6. There was a 6 right in the middle of this Serbian thing that said “freedom”. And there was a 6 in it. And I’m like, “Alright, reuse the numbers. Way to go.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Way to make things even more easy to understand between our countries.
Casey:
How do they know, what’s an identifier? They must have a horrible parsing out…
Jeff:
Yeah, that would be awesome.
Casey:
So, yeah. It cannot start with a letter or a letter that looks like a number. Okay, so up into this point, it’s not really in the danger zone but it goes there quickly, right?
Jeff:
The best ones always go quickly.
Casey:
Quickly.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
“Why did you learn Russian?”
Jeff:
Uh-huh…
Casey:
Because she really loves Russian literature from the early age.
Jeff:
Oh, okay.
Casey:
So right there, I’m like, this conversation is fucking over, right?
Jeff:
Now, there’s some good Russian literature but…
Casey:
No, but literature? We’re just done with me.
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
Literature for you is no good…
Casey:
I’m not a Philistine. I enjoy reading books, right? And I enjoy reading lots of different books, right, as long as it’s not sci-fi. I’m pretty happy at the end of the day.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
And hell, I’d read classic Russian literature. I haven’t but I would and maybe I’d like it. Talking about literature, that’s a lot like talking about philosophy, right? It is the biggest load of bullshit, right? These people… You know, I think I like to hear myself talk. At least I don’t pull that shit. I mean, that shit is just the most useless waste of human time, right, talking about how you felt about reading a novel. God, shoot me in the head.
Jeff:
You’ve heard Chris’ rant about the little signs next to all the pictures at the art museum where he’s like…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
People go to the art museum and just look at the little descriptions which are mostly just horseshit made up.
Casey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah…
Jeff:
He said they should make the pictures tiny and then just…
Casey:
Yes, exactly. Exactly. Well, this is just the whole thing, right? In my mind, conversation is information exchanged between humans to progress something. Okay?
Casey:
That’s a good point.
Jeff:
And because… Then if it’s not Russian…
Casey:
That’s the one that happened, by the way but we’ll get to that in a second.
Jeff:
Okay, alright. Well, because then I’d be stuck by going, “Yeah, so…” Well, no, I’d have to be like… I’d have to go somewhere with “Lolita” or try to make something up. Like, “I think the editor was Russian and so…” Yeah, no…
Casey:
Well, so what happened there was I kind of… You know, I think I talked to her a little bit, right? And usually what happens in this situation is I am afraid that the person will think that I’m interested.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
When I’m not interested. Because to me, there’s 2 outcomes to that and they’re both bad. One is that the person was not at all interested in me, right, in which case, it’s awkward. The other is that they were and now I’m saying hi to them every time I go to the fucking coffee shop again which is what happened before, right, example of that… Neither thing is good, right?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Okay, so neither is good. So usually when I’m like, “I could…” In that situation, I shut down because it’s like I can’t figure out a way to get this person’s…
Jeff:
You’re in a no-win situation.
Casey:
Contact information…
Jeff:
For your friend…
Casey:
For my friend especially because I don’t know if I can [ rip the “Lolita” thing ] because I don’t know if it was written by a Russian. Turns out it is written by a Russian but one who was not Russian, really. Like, he was of Russian descent or something.
Jeff:
Oh, I see.
Casey:
Dostoyevsky is not Russian. He’s sort of British, let’s say…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
But he was of Russian ancestry.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
So you get the idea.
Jeff:
I see. And you found this out later and went, “Oh, my God.”
Casey:
Well, I asked him after. I was like… ‘Cos I was like, she goes here, I think more than once. [inaudible 41:45] part of the conversation…
Jeff:
You can come back, yeah.
Casey:
I was like, “I can go find her again.”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
I’ll just sit down and be like, “Hey, you’re the Russian girl.” It wouldn’t be hard to remember who she was because she’s the only one with the fucking fucked up shit on her piece of paper at this coffee shop so I’d know immediately…
Jeff:
Yeah, putting numbers in her prose…
Casey:
I’d sit down and be like, “Hey, how you doing? This is my friend,” right? And just right there and we’re done, right? But he was like, “No, I’m not really into Russian literature,” so like, eh…
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
Yeah. He’s like, “Dostoyevsky, he was British,” [inaudible 42:10] I really want to know this Dostoyevsky now. I never read “Lolita”.
Jeff:
Then he’d be like…
Casey:
This friend was fucked up. I was like, “Should I read it? It’s your favorite novel.” He’s like, “You’re not ready for it.”
Jeff:
Awesome.
Casey:
I’m like, “What the fuck does that mean?” He’s like, “You’re just not ready for it. You should read some other things first. I could give you some other things.” I’m like…
Jeff:
“You know what, fuck you and your…”
Casey:
Okay. I was like, “You can take your other things…”
Jeff:
“Fuck you and your…” Yeah, “And shove them up right up the ass with ‘War and Peace’ which I understand is big.”
Casey:
Exactly. Yeah.
Jeff:
“That’s all I know about it.”
Casey:
That’s Tolstoy. That is not Dostoyevsky. That is Tolstoy.
Jeff:
Right, but it’s Russian.
Casey:
Even I fucking know that.
Jeff:
“So shove it up your ass and clam it.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s pretty awesome.
Casey:
So, that’s the problem for me.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Yeah. I’m gonna be single forever because that’s all… I have no… There’s no option, right?
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
There’s never… Nothing… I see no possible way… Unless I magically wake up one day and, for some reason, I walk into a coffee shop and everyone is working on P=NP on their laptop and I’m just like…
Jeff:
“This is awesome.”
Casey:
“What the fuck,” yeah…
Jeff:
Well, I would say… What was I gonna say? The thing of the no-win situation is definitely something you face if you’re a woman and you’re speaking to an engineer in the general case in that it’s very…
Casey:
So you’re flipping it around?
Jeff:
Yeah. I’m saying it’s…
Casey:
We were doing engineer talking to woman where engineer is me?
Jeff:
Yes.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
That something does not have to be beneficial to human society in any way. We can have a discussion about games development, right? Irrelevant, okay. It will not solve the world’s feeding problems.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
Okay? Not putting a man on the moon.
Jeff:
Yep.
Casey:
Okay? But it is making progress in something. We are exchanging information and ideas in order to arrive at a more fruitful place…
Jeff:
Yes, okay.
Casey:
That is what I like.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
If we’re gonna talk about fluff, I just want to know what the YouTube video was. That’s all I need for that, right? “I saw this YouTube video. It was this one about a rabbi and he dances. It was awesome.” And I go, “Yeah, that was awesome.” That’s it. We’re done, okay? Maybe you can tell me what phrases you thought were funny.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I don’t want to talk about it for 30 minutes any more than I want to talk about Kafka for 30 minutes.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
So you just want to say, like, “’War and Peace’ is great,” and that’s it. That’s enough for you?
Casey:
I love… “It was awesome.”
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
“Did you like the part where he did blah?” “Yeah.” “That was awesome.” Done. Move on to the next novel at that point, right? We are moving on.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
And the other thing is if you are going to scientifically break down something about the novel, I’m in for that.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Like, let’s say you were like, “Oh, yeah, so I analyzed these 30 Russian novels and I built the grammar generator tree that generates them all. And I figured out the probabilities for each branch being taken,” right? I will fucking sleep with you then, right? We could go to a motel right then.
Jeff:
And sleep on the findings.
Casey:
Okay? I don’t… If we’re not gonna get arrested, I am turned on, okay? But if it’s just gonna be how you fucking felt or stupid shit about this novel, I am so flaccid right now, it is unreal, right? I just want to put my headphones back on and look at my monitor.
Jeff:
Right. Okay.
Casey:
So that is the problem. And I have never had the other experience.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
I’ve never had the experience…
Jeff:
Well, that one didn’t go too wrong, just like, “Oh, I’m into Russian literature,” and then you had to say, “And I’m into leaving so… Bye.”
Casey:
Yeah, I was just like, “Oh, that’s nice,” put on headphones… Thought for a second. Paused for about 5 seconds. And what went through my mind… I’m gonna tell you the whole process right now. What went through my mind was…
Jeff:
“Should I talk about tetris?”
Casey:
“I have a friend whose favorite novel is ‘Lolita’.”
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
And if memory serves, that was written by a Russian.
Jeff:
Yeah, it was I think.
Casey:
Dostoyevsky?
Jeff:
I have no idea.
Casey:
I want to say…
Jeff:
I’m pretty… Yeah…
Casey:
No, I don’t… See, this is just how much I’m uninterested in it.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Yes. But written by a Russian, I think.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
“Maybe I should keep talking to this girl so I can invite her out sometime when he’s there and they’ll hit it off.”
Jeff:
Right. That’s what you thought…
Casey:
I was trying to do a nice thing. I was thinking, “I’ll do something nice for my friend. I know he’s looking for a date.”
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And then I went, “No, I’m not going to do that. I’m gonna go back to work right now.” And I put my headphones back in.
Jeff:
See what… In the similar circumstance, if I thought I knew somebody that liked “Lolita” and about to say that, I’d be like, “Okay, here’s where everything that can go wrong is. One is she can think I’m a freak, like a pedophile talking about “Lolita”.
Casey:
No, but I don’t have to talk about that…
Jeff:
No, I’m just saying… Wait… This is what happened in my mind…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So that’s a possibility.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Not good.
Casey:
No.
Jeff:
The other possibility is he isn’t Russian and I’m remembering wrong and that’s a bad way to go. And then I’d be like…
Casey:
Now we’re doing engineer talking to the woman and she’s having the problem?
Jeff:
Well, the thing is when you speak to an engineer, I don’t know what part of this is similar among engineers but there’s kind of a… They don’t… In my experience, anyway, most engineers don’t have that little bit of protection around…
Casey:
Protection?
Jeff:
Yeah, well, when somebody says the little white lies that you say like, “Hey, cool shirt you’re wearing today,” and all that…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
That like, a lot of people would just, oh, blow off or whatever. Engineers let that stuff directly in. Like, it goes straight into their self-worth in a deep way.
Casey:
That is like, “My hair really does look fucking hot right now.”
Jeff:
Yeah. Like yeah, a normal thing would be like, “Oh, hey,” you come in and you get a haircut and the receptionist goes, “Oh, hey, nice haircut.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
The standard engineer thing is to not come up with a… Just go… Mutter a thanks, go back to their desk and think about all the things they could have said because now he thinks she likes him.
Casey:
Ah…
Jeff:
And they’re obsessing over, like, you know, “I should tell her about her hair. Or maybe I should talk about the fact that I’m wearing Head & Shoulders…
Casey:
Let’s not do that…
Jeff:
No, this is what they… In my experience… And it’s one of the kind of endearing things about them, about engineers is that they are kind of… Feelings are close to the surface about themselves and the way they…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Right? They see themselves in the world as such.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
So very small things that a women, especially the barista or the co-worker or whatever…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Innocent things where she’s not thinking, putting more than a neuron…
Casey:
She’s being nice. She’s being friendly.
Jeff:
More than a neuron or just making conversation, right?
Casey:
That’s what I mean. She’s being friendly.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Right. I would tell someone their hair looked nice if I wanted to be friendly with them, you know, have a nice work environment.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“Your hair looks nice today.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
“Your hair doesn’t look like shit today.”
Jeff:
Right. But a woman saying that to an engineer, it’s a razor sharp line that they are trying to tread because it’s very difficult for them not to take that in a way that’s…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Real and deep…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
And that they obsess upon forever, right? And that’s why it’s scary. So the smallest thing of like, “Oh, hey. Yo, you’re eating tuna?” “Oh, I like tuna.” And then the next day, he’s brought her, like, 30 tuna sandwiches. And she’s like, “Oh, no. I didn’t… I made the ‘friend of an engineer’ mistake. And it’s in the sense of I think that most people…
Casey:
And FOE?
Jeff:
Yes. So…
Casey:
I like that. “Oh, fuck. It’s an FOE.”
Jeff:
“It’s an FOE.” Now, Dave told me recently about the company he visited and he said they made a classic error in this vein.
Casey:
A classic error?
Jeff:
Yeah, of one of the worst…
Casey:
An error with which he is familiar as being long-standing in the industry?
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
And he said they make… It could be one of the classic start-up mistakes like 2 little capital…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Like, you know, not [inaudible 47:12]
Casey:
Getting involved in the land war in Asia, for example.
Jeff:
Yeah, that kind of thing, right.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And what they had done is they’d hire…
Casey:
Never go up against a Sicilian…
Jeff:
Yes, right.
Casey:
When death is on the line.
Jeff:
No, this is… He said there should be business books written about this. But in their case…
Casey:
And there aren’t? I don’t know what it is yet.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Their mistake was they hired way, way too hot of a receptionist, right?
Casey:
So you’re saying not just slightly?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
You’re talking about they went all the way.
Jeff:
No. Right, they over hired big time, right?
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
So what’s happening is the engineers are up at the reception desk all the time.
Casey:
Nice.
Jeff:
All the time.
Casey:
Nice.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s like, “Hey, you guys gonna do any programming today or are you just gonna sit around the reception?”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
We have somebody to do that job.
Jeff:
Right. And she’s a receptionist. She has to be nice.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
So it’s totally feeding into the engineer thing over and over. So every time she’s nice… Every time she lets them do her a favor, it’s even worse.
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
It’s like, “Oh…”
Casey:
This is like Code Monkey. This is like the Code Monkey song.
Jeff:
Oh, it is?
Casey:
From Jonathan Colton.
Jeff:
Oh, okay. I don’t like Code Monkey but yes…
Casey:
You know? But it’s the song.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
You know? He offers to buy her a soda.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
And she declines the soda. She does not want the soda because soda will make her fat. That is her explanation.
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
And she does not have time to talk with him because she is busy.
Jeff:
Right. Okay.
Casey:
This leaves the Code Monkey to feel dejected and sad and he walks back to his cubicle and finds it hard to resume his work.
Jeff:
Okay.
Casey:
That is what happens in this song.
Jeff:
No, that’s exactly… So the resumption of work… He’s sitting there thinking a million things like, “I should’ve offered her juice or maybe water. Maybe I can go up to her and say, you know, I don’t…” And like, in his mind, he’s like, “I’m gonna pay her a compliment.” And then it comes out as, “I don’t think you’re that fat.” And then he’s like… You know… There’s…
Casey:
Right. Although in this situation, it’s Jonathan Colton. So what really happens is 5 years later, he goes back and he’s like, “I’m a fucking rock star.” And she’s like, “You want to go out?”
Jeff:
Oh, I see. Yeah.
Casey:
But, I don’t know. Maybe his Code Monkey sort of… It didn’t wear off.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
He’s still a rock star who still doesn’t know how to hit on someone.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Maybe? I don’t know. It seems unlikely. I feel like most rock stars are people who maybe didn’t hit on girls that well and then now do. But this is not entirely true because I do remember hearing an interview once. I want to say it was with David Bowie maybe where he was talking about how, like… He was discussing how he used to pick up girls when he was 16.
Jeff:
Yeah, my experience…
Casey:
So he may be making it up but he might just be like, “No, that’s what I do. That’s what I do.”
Jeff:
Right. My experience is that’s exactly what… The rock stars were always awesome then.
Casey:
Okay. They just worked it and it just like… They sang because that’s how they made some money…
Jeff:
Right, and they…
Casey:
It was not because they were trying to get with women.
Jeff:
Usually, the rest of the band is making music but the lead singer…
Casey:
Okay. The roadies, the drummer…
Jeff:
Has always had it, like…
Casey:
He’s had it because otherwise, he’s not lead singer material.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
Is what you’re saying…
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
He can’t put on… He can’t fill out the pants, right?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
He doesn’t have the bulges in the right places.
Jeff:
No. There is something… There’s something there…
Casey:
I got you.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
But in general, like… I mean, the classic engineer thing is, like… In the sense of, like, super hot girl at the coffee shop…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
He wouldn’t probably approach but he does at the reception because she’s just…
Casey:
There’s context. There’s a context there.
Jeff:
Yeah… And also…
Casey:
There’s an excuse.
Jeff:
No, and also, there’s just like… There’s less walking involved. It’s like, she’s there. She’s there.
Casey:
And they don’t even have to buy a coffee.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
It’s even better. I saved $5.
Jeff:
No, it’s the optimization mentality…
Casey:
At play?
Jeff:
Yeah, at play. It’s just like, “Well, now I could go out and try to find somebody but she’s right here…”
Casey:
Nice.
Jeff:
So, yeah, anyway… They did point out that there is a solution to the hot girl receptionist problem and that’s if somebody in the company who’s high up in the company starts dating here.
Casey:
Okay. So you need an alpha male…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
To…
Jeff:
Alpha male, not in the sense of “big, tough guy”…
Casey:
Just in the hierarchy, in the programmer hierarchy…
Jeff:
No, only in the hierarchy. And he has…
Casey:
He has to be in the hierarchy.
Jeff:
And he has to be… He can’t be management.
Casey:
Oh, so it can’t be, like, her boyfriend from outside the company?
Jeff:
No, it can’t… No, boyfriend doesn’t matter. He’s not there. It could be Brad Pitt. He’s not there. I am.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Right?
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
It can’t be a manager in the company because he’s like, “I’m smarter than him…”
Casey:
“’Cos as soon as I convince her to date the code monkey here…”
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
“She’s gonna leave that guy.”
Jeff:
Right. But what you need is…
Casey:
Of course, yeah…
Jeff:
A higher level engineer…
Casey:
Programmer…
Jeff:
That is, like… You’re just like, “He’s better than me.”
Casey:
My superior.
Jeff:
And not necessarily in, like, rank but in…
Casey:
Prowess.
Jeff:
“He’s a better programmer than me.”
Casey:
He codes harder.
Jeff:
Yeah. And so… And that’s the one where there’s immediately…
Casey:
And then everyone knows that they better not step up unless they’re gonna optimize their routine to be even faster than he did.
Jeff:
That’s right. Yeah. So that’s what’s happening.
Casey:
Now, you know what?
Jeff:
So the engineer who thinks he’s not like the other guys that would get in the fist fight…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
That’s exactly the same thing only it’s more subtle…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
On a…
Casey:
This is just like the movie, right, where they’re, like, going after the girl, you know… New guy at the company…
Jeff:
Uh-huh…
Casey:
He’s a pretty good coder, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But he’s just starting out, you know.
Jeff:
He doesn’t know how things work in the company.
Casey:
And he runs into her in the hall. There’s maybe a little something there, right? But then the dude, the bad guy, right, who’s like, just codes the shit out of him right in front of her, you know… And he’s feeling all dejected, right? But then, kind of the old… The janitor, right, who doesn’t code anymore, he just cleans up the building, right, ‘cos he doesn’t code anymore… Something bad happened. We don’t know what it was. Something bad happened to him in code…
Jeff:
Right. Someone was killed.
Casey:
It’s too dangerous for him to code now, okay. He’s afraid of what might happen if he got in front of the keyboard.
Jeff:
If he starts again… Yeah.
Casey:
He starts to teach him some things that he didn’t know before…
Jeff:
Right. Some moves.
Casey:
About code.
Jeff:
Uh-huh.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
“Construct wrong. Construct wrong.”
Casey:
Yeah, yeah. And then later, they have another battle and he codes harder…
Jeff:
He’s victorious? Yeah.
Casey:
Yeah. Now, he’s at a disadvantage in that battle because he is using a machine that has been under clocked without his knowledge.
Jeff:
I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Casey:
But he still manages to pull out in optimization which, oddly enough, was referenced early on in the battle, in the previous battle…
Jeff:
I see.
Casey:
In the training, rather… That allows him to optimize the code even more.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
And he wins.
Jeff:
So the janitor wins some secret ON sort routine.
Casey:
Oh, yeah.
Jeff:
But that, like…
Casey:
“No one’s ever sorted an ON before. It’s not possible.” “It’s possible, kid. You just have to believe.”
Jeff:
“It’s just possible. We call it the ratings.”
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Okay, so what you did there, my friend, is you applied the “Karate Kid” formula… You applied a movie formula like they do in Hollywood…
Casey:
Yes, unconsciously, I was…
Jeff:
You took a story, you applied the formula, and you got a movie out of the end of it, right?
Casey:
That is exactly what I did.
Jeff:
Out of the anus of the process spat forth a movie.
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
And that’s the “Karate Kid” kind of maneuver and there’s…
Casey:
Yeah, that is exactly… That’s what I was thinking the whole time. I was thinking “Karate Kid”.
Jeff:
Yeah. And now, they still do the “Karate Kid” one. There’s that fighting one that’s out now. I can’t remember what it’s called.
Casey:
Oh, right. Yeah, yeah.
Jeff:
I can’t remember.
Casey:
That movie was shocking to me, when I saw the trailer. I know the one you’re talking about. We’re gonna have to look it up one day so we can post the link.
Jeff:
Yeah, it’s like the mixed martial arts version of the “Karate Kid”.
Casey:
Yes, but the reason that movie shocked me is because the villain looks like I could beat him up. He’s, like, 5 feet tall, scrawny-ass motherfucker. I was like… I mean, maybe he’s a great martial artist so he would kick my ass. But I don’t know that.
Jeff:
I don’t feel it.
Casey:
You’re supposed to show me on the screen someone who looks intimidating.
Jeff:
Right. Right.
Casey:
Not someone who looks like the world’s biggest prissy boy wuss.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Which is what this kid was. Yeah.
Jeff:
“Sweep the leg, Peewee.”
Casey:
Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
So yeah, but there was that other movie that it was a sequel and you didn’t even know the original movie which killed me. What was…
Casey:
That was weird, yeah. I saw a trailer for something called…
Jeff:
Step it?
Casey:
Well, I thought…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Immediately after watching it, I thought it was called, “Step It Up 2: The Streets”. That is what I thought the movie was called after seeing the trailer.
Jeff:
Great movie name.
Casey:
Okay? Which I thought, “How is there a ‘Step It Up 2’ when they never had a ‘Step It Up 1’?” That’s what I was thinking. I was like, “Is this like the XBOX 360, like, they just… There was someone else with a similar line of movies and they had already done their first one so they thought coming out with a 1 would be passé so they just started with 2?”
Jeff:
Just skipped right over, yeah.
Casey:
It turns out after I figured out that it was not “Step It Up”, it’s just “Step Up” with no “it”… I guess I invented the “it” somehow in my head.
Jeff:
“Step Up 2”?
Casey:
It’s just “Step Up 2: The Streets”.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
There is a “Step Up 1” that does not have a subtitle.
Jeff:
Yeah, well, all of those movies… Now, there’s a lot of awesomeness about this style of movie…
Casey:
The trailer did make it look awesome to say the least.
Jeff:
Right. And they follow an exact formula that’s very similar to the “Karate Kid” but different in some important ways.
Casey:
This movie’s about dancing, for starters. There’s no karate in this film.
Jeff:
That’s very important. Now, it’s not dancing…
Casey:
That’s important?
Jeff:
Yes. So usually, what happens is you have an outsider to the tribe, okay?
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Who has some natural…
Casey:
The tribe?
Jeff:
Right. It doesn’t matter.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
It could be… And it’s usually a school because they’re pushing this to kids…
Casey:
You’re actually… You’re getting Joseph Campbell on this?
Jeff:
Yeah, I’m getting all over it.
Casey:
You’re, like, bringing it back to Africa.
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
You’re bringing it back to the fertile crescent.
Jeff:
Wait ‘til I tell what I think the first movie is…
Casey:
Oh, wow, okay.
Jeff:
I’ve been thinking about this.
Casey:
No, I’m loving this. This is fabulous. Okay, an outsider to the tribe…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Arrives?
Jeff:
Arrives. And he has some natural instincts in something but he doesn’t really care because where he’s from, it’s not a valued skill.
Casey:
So from his tribe or his… Wherever he came from…
Jeff:
Yeah, yeah, his roots, right.
Casey:
It was not a skill that people worked at?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So he arrives at the school or the wherever and they take whatever that is incredibly seriously.
Casey:
Okay. It’s the most important thing?
Jeff:
Oh, it’s all that matters.
Casey:
It’s everything, okay.
Jeff:
So in the “Step It Up” movies, it’s this crazy street dancing…
Casey:
“Step Up” movies…
Jeff:
“Step Up”, sorry… In the…
Casey:
Which by the way, I don’t even know what that is. I don’t know what street dancing is.
Jeff:
Well, I don’t know. It doesn’t matter. See, that’s why…
Casey:
They just pick something? Do they pick… Okay, I’m jumping the gun here so you’ll have to tell the rest of the story ‘cos you haven’t even started the story structure but I already have a question which is, “Are they picking something because that something is cool now? Or are they picking the something because they ran out of things so they’re just on street dancing?”
Jeff:
No. The thing doesn’t matter, okay?
Casey:
So someone just randomly picks the thing?
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So there’s the cheerleading one which is called…
Casey:
No, there isn’t…
Jeff:
Oh, cheerleading, that was one of the first ones…
Casey:
Are you kidding me?
Jeff:
A couple years ago with Kristen Dunst and it’s “Bring…” Oh, my goodness, I can’t remember.
Casey:
Wow. Okay.
Jeff:
So the cheerleading one was one of the first ones. And all these movies are designed to have a great opening weekend and that’s all they need.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
So the outsider arrives. He has some natural talent that he has never pursued…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Because he doesn’t come from a place that values the skill. He shows up at some place where the skill is valued.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Now what?
Jeff:
There’s no… There’s some important things. First off, there’s no… They don’t waste any time explaining why trampolining or pogo stick-ing or rubik’s cubing…
Casey:
Not important. It’s not important why…
Jeff:
It doesn’t matter. It’s just the school’s into it, right?
Casey:
It just is.
Jeff:
Right. That’s it. There’s ones with marching band. There’s one drum corps.
Casey:
Are you fucking kidding me?
Jeff:
No, there are dozens of these movies.
Casey:
So they don’t even try to go over the plausible explanation about why the school gives a shit about this?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
They just assume that somewhere in the country, you could believe there was a school…
Jeff:
Because these are deep stories that tap into our psyche.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
It doesn’t matter what the thing is. You’re an outsider and then maybe you have a way in, right?
Casey:
Okay. Alright.
Jeff:
So you come to the school. And all of a sudden, they’re doing this stuff that previously, you were only semi-interested in but you have some natural skill.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
So usually what happens in this movie is you run into somebody who’s, like, the top dog at the school at that thing.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So they’re like, the head cheerleader or something.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And then you go, “Well, I can cheer.” And she brings you…
Casey:
She cheers the shit out of you?
Jeff:
Yeah. She cuts you back you down to size, right?
Casey:
Okay. Now, is she mean?
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
So this is not…
Jeff:
This is not the “Karate Kid”.
Casey:
This is different from the “Karate Kid”.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
She is not necessarily your born adversary.
Jeff:
No.
Casey:
She is simply showing you…
Jeff:
Where your place is.
Casey:
What it means…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
To cheer…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
’Cos you did not cheer the way…
Jeff:
You didn’t get it.
Casey:
It wasn’t coming from in here.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
So then, usually with several training montages, with… There’s usually a friend who’s like, a comic relief…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
Who’s, like, knows and they’re like, “You didn’t try to cheer in front of her, did you?” And he’s like, “Why? What’s the problem?” He’s like, “You don’t do that. You can’t bring that weak shit.”
Casey:
“She’s the best cheerer in the world.”
Jeff:
So he’s kind of her translator in this new world, right?
Casey:
I see. Okay.
Jeff:
And usually, he or she has a little…
Casey:
The guide… The spirit guide.
Jeff:
The guide has a little crush on the newbie, right?
Casey:
Oh, really?
Jeff:
But the newbie generally is in love with the person or has eyes on the person who is the master cheerer. So she gets out-cheered by, like…
Casey:
Whoa, wait. How is that possible? Is this a lesbian film?
Jeff:
No, no, no. It’s usually like the main…
Casey:
So the person who cuts her down to size will actually be a man?
Jeff:
Yeah, male cheerleader.
Casey:
It will be a male cheerleader?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
So this movie just went from relatively implausible to completely implausible?
Jeff:
In the…
Casey:
’Cos he would not probably be straight.
Jeff:
Yeah. No, that doesn’t matter.
Casey:
Okay. That…
Jeff:
If you make this movie… Like, these movies are all the same. They can make this movie…
Casey:
That’s why it’s a movie.
Jeff:
Well, no, they can make this movie where they went to university and everyone was gay and you were there and you were, like, maybe had some gay experiences but you [ weren’t quite ] how to bring it…
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
And then you go to the university and you’re like, “What are they doing?” And you’re like… The guide’s like, “Dude, they’re just not having anal sex, you know.”
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
And there’s never… They don’t ever say he’s trampoline master.
Casey:
Or he’s cheering really well.
Jeff:
Right, he brings cheer… No, he’s like… They’ll have some crazy expression like…
Casey:
“He rocks the pom. He rocks the pompom.”
Jeff:
Right. Or, “He rims that ass.” It doesn’t matter.
Casey:
“He pounds the ass.”
Jeff:
“He pounds that ass.”
Casey:
“He pounds the ass.”
Jeff:
Right. “He’s not just gay. He pounds the ass.”
Casey:
“No, he’s not gay. He’s army of 2.”
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Okay, I see.
Jeff:
It doesn’t matter what the thing is, though. That’s not the important part.
Casey:
Okay. That’s not the important part.
Jeff:
The important part is you have the guide. You become better.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
And to gain respect in your peers and in the master cheerer…
Casey:
Of your lover master…
Jeff:
Right, of the person that you have eyes for…
Casey:
Yes.
Jeff:
You’d have to undergo lots of physical training to become a better version of what you have natural ability for.
Casey:
Okay. I see.
Jeff:
Usually with a showdown with another school or another tribe of some kind.
Casey:
Do you and the master join forces at this point?
Jeff:
Sometimes. Sometimes what also happens is sometimes the master is injured and they need someone to fill…
Casey:
You need to come… I see. So the master probably could have out-cheered the other team by themselves.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
But they can’t.
Jeff:
Right. They came down with laryngitis…
Casey:
They got grounded. They got a bad grade. They injured their pompom hand.
Jeff:
Yes, totally.
Casey:
So you are now called into service.
Jeff:
Hemorrhoid… Yes, totally.
Casey:
You must step it up or just step up…
Jeff:
Step up somehow, dance it off…
Casey:
Dance it out…
Jeff:
And bring the thing.
Casey:
Wow.
Jeff:
Now, I thought about this.
Casey:
I love this whole thing.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You should be teaching… This should be at the U Dub. You should do a course at the U Dub that’s like…
Jeff:
You don’t know how many… The number of movies that are exactly this is amazing.
Casey:
It’s staggering? Is there a Syd Mead, a separate Syd Mead book?
Jeff:
About?
Casey:
Where it’s just like, “Okay, here are the 3 acts. Instead of telling you generally what they are, I’m just gonna tell you specifically what they are for these kinds of films.”
Jeff:
Or the Scott McCloud version where they do a movie of you learning about these movies.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And then at the end, Roger Ebert is like, “You have to team up…”
Casey:
Oh, you’re doing it in that way, right?
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Awesome. That would be the most meta ever. I love it.
Jeff:
Now, the only…
Casey:
That’s a great idea.
Jeff:
The thing… I’ve been thinking about what was the first movie that I remember that was like it…
Casey:
You’re trying to find the progenitor?
Jeff:
Now, every other movie is like this because they make money and they’re cheap and they’re easy to make.
Casey:
Because it’s like, it’s dance.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
You don’t need any CG…
Jeff:
That’s what’s amazing…
Casey:
You’ve got… These are starving actors or dancers…
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
You could pay them 50 bucks for this show and they would line up to sign up, I’m assuming.
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
Right?
Jeff:
Well, what’s amazing about this is, like, somehow in the reality of these movies, the school gets behind the cheering more than…
Casey:
Oh, right, like anyone would give a flying fuck.
Jeff:
Yeah, right, way more than, like, the basketball or football team.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, my high school, we had the nation’s… The champion, the girl who did the longest long jump in the country…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Was in our school.
Casey:
Oh, wow. Alright.
Jeff:
So the national record holder at long jump, right?
Casey:
Didn’t give a shit? Nobody gave a shit?
Jeff:
Dude, you know how many people came to those track meets? Right? 2. Her parents. Not even the parents of the other girls…
Casey:
Awesome.
Jeff:
And you know why? ‘Cos it was fucking girls track, right?
Casey:
Right. Nobody cared.
Jeff:
The only way to make someone go to girls track is, like, banning sports bras…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
And like, horse steroids…
Casey:
There would have to be some reason where the guys thought it was sexy or something.
Jeff:
Right. That’s the only way you do that, right?
Casey:
But if they made the movie, this would be like jumping the sand or something.
Jeff:
Yeah. “Did you land in the sand?”
Casey:
Right. And it would start out with 2 people showing up maybe but it would end with thousands of people in the arena cheering.
Jeff:
Totally. No, it’s…
Casey:
I guess in your… The way it would be constructed, there’d just always be a thousand people showing.
Jeff:
No, no, no. Right, exactly.
Casey:
Everyone shows up for the track meet…
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
It’s the fucking girls track meet.
Jeff:
What are you talking about? Of course.
Casey:
Everyone’s there on a Friday night. Like, you’re at the Burger World, it’s like, “Where is everybody?” “They’re all at the track meet.” “What track meet?”
Jeff:
Exactly.
Casey:
“You don’t know about the track meet?”
Jeff:
“They’re landing the sand.”
Casey:
Yeah, exactly.
Jeff:
“What’s wrong with you?” And whereas ours is, like, yeah, nothing…
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
I mean… And so, yeah, it’s a crazy scene but I think the first one that I can remember that mostly followed this was “Dirty Dancing” where we…
Casey:
“Dirty Dancing”?
Jeff:
Because she came…
Casey:
Really?
Jeff:
There’s this crazy scene where, like…
Casey:
The professional gets injured. You’re right.
Jeff:
And remember, they’re bad boys even though they just dance.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And Patrick Swayze is so gay in that movie and yet he’s a bad boy.
Casey:
You’re right. Yeah, yeah.
Jeff:
That’s the earliest I can think of. There may be earlier ones…
Casey:
Wow, you really have studied this.
Jeff:
But now, this is the first one that… I mean, that made so much money.
Casey:
Oh, yeah, God. Compared to its budget, that must be a really high multiplier.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
That’s not like a “Star Wars” or something.
Jeff:
At one time, that was…
Casey:
The highest grossing movie…
Jeff:
Not the highest grossing but like…
Casey:
A percentage gain, sorry…
Jeff:
The best to return…
Casey:
The highest percentage gain.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Because I knew girls that had seen that 6 times.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
It’s like the “Star Wars” for girls.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Right?
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
I remember the third time I went and saw. But, yeah, so I think that was the first one that I can remember that’s like that. And then now, really literally…
Casey:
They stamp them out…
Jeff:
There’s one…
Casey:
For whatever the thing is…
Jeff:
Once a month, yeah, there’ll be something like that. There’s probably… In the summer especially, where all the kids are out of school…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Tons of them.
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
So we can expect more of this…
Casey:
“He doesn’t just mow the lawn. He splits the blades.”
Jeff:
It’s awesome. It’s awesome. So you can expect many more is all I’m saying.
Casey:
I see.
Jeff:
It seems to work. We need…
Casey:
Do you have a name for this schema?
Jeff:
No, not yet.
Casey:
’Cos the hero’s journey, right, you need the name for this thing…
Jeff:
Totally.
Casey:
You need to come up with a name for this thing.
Jeff:
I know. I know. Well, because it’s easy to confuse this little meme with the “Karate Kid” meme…
Casey:
Right.
Jeff:
Which is very similar.
Casey:
I think I have done that in the past. I did not realize the very specific differences which you have outlined.
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
And we don’t have a word for the “Karate Kid” meme, either, even though I think that one’s a litlte more visible.
Jeff:
Yes. And “Karate Kid” has existed for longer than this.
Casey:
So that’s kind of… You think that…
Jeff:
’Cos “Rocky”…
Casey:
’Cos that one’s a little [ longer like ]…
Jeff:
Is very similar…
Casey:
“Rocky”, right… Yeah.
Jeff:
Than that…
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And kind of like the loser that makes good in all this.
Casey:
Okay.
Jeff:
But this is different…
Casey:
Different.
Jeff:
In the sense that there is this crazy underworld of randomness…
Casey:
Right. And that the adversary is not the important part. In the “Karate Kid”, beating the adversary, that’s the important part. You get to know the adversary early on. It’s not some other school that you go play.
Jeff:
Right.
Casey:
You know the other guy or the other girl.
Jeff:
It’s way more important… Like, it’s not important to win the cheering match.
Casey:
Right. I see.
Jeff:
It’s to cheer to the best of your ability. It’s more like…
Casey:
Okay. It’s about self-realization and fulfillment…
Jeff:
Yes.
Casey:
Through this activity.
Jeff:
It’s probably… The reason… The core difference, I think, there is that the “Karate Kid”/“Rocky” thing is for guys and the other one is for girls where it’s not about the win…
Casey:
Oh, okay. So you think there might be a gender difference…
Jeff:
It’s about becoming good at the thing you want to be at.
Casey:
Interesting.
Jeff:
Like, “Pull on the yarn,” and it’s like, who’s the best crochet-er.
Casey:
Right. That would be the grandmother version.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Like, once they’ve tapped in to this, this generation they’ll ride right into boomer…
Casey:
Okay. So you think as we get older, we will still be having these movies…
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
Set up to our other things, right?
Jeff:
Right. “Men and the Pause”, right? And then it will be like, “All these women, they just seem to go hot and cold.” And then they’d be like, “They’re not just menopausing, they’re mending the pause.” And then yeah, she comes into it. She gets in. She finally realizes that estrogen…
Casey:
Oh, my God. That’ll be awesome.
Jeff:
They’re gonna get 30 to 20 million Dollars a month from this ‘til the end of time.
Casey:
That is great.
Jeff:
Yeah. Alright.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Okay, we’re way over…
Casey:
[ “Jell-O mold… That’s not Jell-O mold…” ]
Jeff:
“That’s wearing the top.”
Casey:
Oh, man. I love it. I like this.
Jeff:
Oh, brother. Alright, so we’re over budget. So we’re gonna do our…
Casey:
I’m sure we’re over budget by now…
Jeff:
Our Metacritics, we’re gonna hit off…
Casey:
We’ve got a ton of stuff, probably, that we should get to.
Jeff:
Alright.
Casey:
That we’re not gonna get to.
Jeff:
Yeah. Next week.
Casey:
Alright.
Jeff:
Alright, thanks, everybody.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
And we’ll see you next week. Remember to email us at Podcast@MollyRocket.com.
Casey:
Podcast@MollyRocket.com and I’m posting a link to the Garth Marenghi “Darkplace” video on YouTube.
Jeff:
You want to tell everybody…
Casey:
If you have not seen this show, you need to watch it right now. And I would tell you to buy the DVD but I guess the problem is…
Jeff:
Region 2.
Casey:
It’s Region 2, which we only just found out.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Casey:
But buy it anyway just to support the show…
Jeff:
Amazing.
Casey:
And then watch it on YouTube because it’s up there… I don’t know if it’s legal. YouTube’s weird because they have distribution rights with some people so you never know whether something is gonna stay up or whether it’s gonna be something that’s gonna go down because it’s gonna be a copyright violation. I wish they would say. I wish they had a little thing that’s like, “This is a legitimate…”
Jeff:
[ P Pirate ]…
Casey:
No, a C that says we are revenue sharing with this or something so you can just be like, “Okay, that’ll be up forever.”
Jeff:
Yeah. But no, it’s the best 3 hours I’ve…
Casey:
Oh, God. Yeah. Fabulous.
Jeff:
Anyway…
Casey:
Might even be better than the podcast.
Jeff:
Maybe, yeah.
Casey:
Actually, it’s definitely, like, 50 times better.
Jeff:
It’s true.
Casey:
A hundred times better.
Jeff:
Damn it.
Casey:
It’s awesome. Brilliant.
Jeff:
It’s good stuff.
Casey:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Alright, thanks, everybody. See you next week.
Casey:
Take it easy.
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casey muratori
the jeff and casey show - season 1 - episode 7
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